If Joseph and Mary had other children after Jesus...

[Faith.Man]

Faith.man I suggest you go read the thread "If not Mary then who" here in Mariology.
Read at least the last half of the thread objectively.
I am learning a lot from it.

I'm not quite sure what I was supposed to learn from that tread, but I did read quite a bit of it. Much of it was disrespectful, some posts were just theologically full of errors, etc. I'm not sure I learned anything from reading it. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what you learned from it.

 

[MrPolo]

What is the status of the firstborn in a family when the father of the household is no longer alive?

If, hypothetically, Jesus had other brothers, it would have been appropriate for Him to entrust His mother into the care of one of those brothers.

One interesting quip about the word "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος) in Luke 2:7 or Matthew 1:25 is the same word used in Hebrews 1:6 to refer to God speaking of His firstbegotten. If God had other Sons, I wonder if that mean He is a Quadrinity or Pentinity?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If, hypothetically, Jesus had other brothers, it would have been appropriate for Him to entrust His mother into the care of one of those brothers.

One interesting quip about the word "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος) in Luke 2:7 or Matthew 1:25 is the same word used in Hebrews 1:6 to refer to God speaking of His firstbegotten. If God had other Sons, I wonder if that mean He is a Quadrinity or Pentinity?

Sorry, MrPolo, I cannot resist and hope you will understand and forgive my impertinence. God has multitudes of sons and daughters (by adoption, of course) so that must make God a polyinity, or is that a Pollyannity?

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus did not follow the traditions of men. He did as the Father instructed Him therefore Jesus giving the care of Mary to John has nothing to do with having brothers and sisters. They were no where near Him as He was being crucified..

 

[MrPolo]

Sorry, MrPolo, I cannot resist and hope you will understand and forgive my impertinence. God has multitudes of sons and daughters (by adoption, of course) so that must make God a polyinity, or is that a Pollyannity?

GET OUT! I never would have guessed you had no human father too!!!

 

[MrPolo]

They were no where near Him as He was being crucified..

You mean the reason Jesus did not leave His mother in the care of one of her other sons is because they didn't happen to be standing there at the foot of the Cross?

Which Scripture verse tells you that is the reason? Or are you appealing to tradition!

 

[Mobiosity]

You mean the reason Jesus did not leave His mother in the care of one of her other sons is because they didn't happen to be standing there at the foot of the Cross?

Which Scripture verse tells you that is the reason? Or are you appealing to tradition!

Or maybe common sense?

 

[MamaZ]

You mean the reason Jesus did not leave His mother in the care of one of her other sons is because they didn't happen to be standing there at the foot of the Cross?

Which Scripture verse tells you that is the reason? Or are you appealing to tradition!

Jesus gave care of Mary over to John as He was dying on the cross.. His brothers were no where so that Jesus could give care to the brothers as He died on the cross for Mary and all His elect..

 

[Faith.Man]

If, hypothetically, Jesus had other brothers, it would have been appropriate for Him to entrust His mother into the care of one of those brothers.

An interesting point and certainly valid. The Bible does not go into enough detail to resolve this issue. Jesus could not do any miracles in His hometown because of their lack of belief. Could it be that His family did not believe He was the Messiah? Where was Joseph? Why would James, who was not an apostle, be placed over Peter as the head of the Jerusalem church if he was only a cousin?

One interesting quip about the word "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος) in Luke 2:7 or Matthew 1:25 is the same word used in Hebrews 1:6 to refer to God speaking of His firstbegotten. If God had other Sons, I wonder if that mean He is a Quadrinity or Pentinity?

Maybe this word is used because we are all adoptive sons and daughters. Or, as the Bible Knowledge Commentary asserts:

Luke 2:6-7
The Child was born during their time in Bethlehem. The fact that Jesus was called Mary’s firstborn implies that later she had other children. The couple was housed in quarters which were not private. According to tradition, they were in a cave near the inn. The Child was placed… in a manger, from which livestock fed. Being wrapped in strips of cloth was important, for this was the way the shepherds would recognize the infant (Luke 2:12). Some infants were bound up in that way to keep their limbs straight and unharmed.

 

[Thekla]

An interesting point and certainly valid. The Bible does not go into enough detail to resolve this issue. Jesus could not do any miracles in His hometown because of their lack of belief. Could it be that His family did not believe He was the Messiah? Where was Joseph? Why would James, who was not an apostle, be placed over Peter as the head of the Jerusalem church if he was only a cousin?



Maybe this word is used because we are all adoptive sons and daughters. Or, as the Bible Knowledge Commentary asserts:

Luke 2:6-7
The Child was born during their time in Bethlehem. The fact that Jesus was called Mary’s firstborn implies that later she had other children. The couple was housed in quarters which were not private. According to tradition, they were in a cave near the inn. The Child was placed… in a manger, from which livestock fed. Being wrapped in strips of cloth was important, for this was the way the shepherds would recognize the infant (Luke 2:12). Some infants were bound up in that way to keep their limbs straight and unharmed.

Compare the use of the term "firstborn" throughout the New and Old Testament -- the firstborn was to be dedicated to God (Exodus 13:2). It does not necessarily mean that subsequent children were born.

It is a specialised 'religious' term. Its equivalent is the medical term prima para; this term is used for the first pregnancy - the fact of subsequent pregnancy cannot be known. Prima para, like firstborn, refers to the one who "opens the womb".

Christ said that those who do the will of God are his mother and adelphoi; in this sense, both James and Peter were adelphoi.

 

[MrPolo]

Maybe this word is used because we are all adoptive sons and daughters.

I might agree with that except that we are "adopted sons" and not "begotten" miraculously by God. Make no mistake, I agree we are all children of God, but not in the way Jesus was and ever is.

 

[MamaZ]

He also said that all who do the Fathers will is His mother.. For it is not according to the flesh we look but according to the Spirit. For when one is born again they are born of Gods Spirit not according to the flesh

 

[Faith.Man]

Compare the use of the term "firstborn" throughout the New and Old Testament -- the firstborn was to be dedicated to God (Exodus 13:2). It does not necessarily mean that subsequent children were born.

It is a specialized 'religious' term. Its equivalent is the medical term prima para; this term is used for the first pregnancy - the fact of subsequent pregnancy cannot be known. Prima para, like firstborn, refers to the one who "opens the womb".

Christ said that those who do the will of God are his mother and adelphoi; in this sense, both James and Peter were adelphoi.

For Joseph to remain celibate after his marriage to Mary would not be in keeping with Jewish tradition.

If you read Acts, you'll see that the Apostle James died before James the Brother of Jesus became an elder of the Jerusalem church with Peter. He (James, brother of Jesus) is also the author of the book of the same name. Some other verses for you to consider in addition to those already cited:

Mar 3:20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.
Mar 3:21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
Mar 3:22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
Mar 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan?
Mar 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
Mar 3:27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man's house.
Mar 3:28 Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter.
Mar 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
Mar 3:30 He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
Mar 3:31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.
Mar 3:32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
Mar 3:33 "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
Mar 3:34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mar 3:35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (TNIV)

 

[Thekla]

For Joseph to remain celibate after his marriage to Mary would not be in keeping with Jewish tradition.

Actually, it would be in keeping with the Jewish tradition that subsequent to being in the presence of God, one becomes chaste. This was the contemporary teaching on Moses after his encounter with God.

If you read Acts, you'll see that the Apostle James died before James the Brother of Jesus became an elder of the Jerusalem church with Peter. He (James, brother of Jesus) is also the author of the book of the same name.

James is described as the adelphos of Christ; as no further descriptive is provided to explain what the particular narrowed meaning of adelphos is, we can only know that he was an adelphos. Brother is one, but not the only, meaning of adelphos. If the author had intended a particular meaning, a further description is required per the language.

Some other verses for you to consider in addition to those already cited:

Mar 3:20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.
Mar 3:21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
Mar 3:22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
Mar 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan?
Mar 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
Mar 3:27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man's house.
Mar 3:28 Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter.
Mar 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
Mar 3:30 He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
Mar 3:31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.
Mar 3:32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
Mar 3:33 "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
Mar 3:34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mar 3:35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (TNIV)

Thank-you
I have read these verses many times. The word used here is adelphoi, but the meaning of adelphoi is not given, so we cannot know which of the aprox. dozen meanings is meant by the term.

 

[Thekla]

On celibacy in Judaism:

"Judaism saw nothing wrong in portraying as celibate the great primordial prophet, seer, and lawgiver Moses (though only after the Lord had begun to speak to him). We see this interpretation already beginning to develop in Philo in the 1st century A.D. What is more surprising is that this idea is also reflected in various rabbinic passages. The gist of the tradition is an a fortiori argument. If the Israelites at Sinai had to abstain from women temporarily to prepare for God's brief, once-and- for-all address to them, how much more should Moses be permanently chaste, since God spoke regularly to him (see, e.g., b. Yabb. 87a). The same tradition, but from the viewpoint of the deprived wife, is related in the Sipre on Numbers 12.1 (99). Since the rabbis in general were unsympathetic--not to say hostile--to religious celibacy, the survival of this Moses tradition even in later rabbinic writings argues that the tradition was long-lived and widespread by the time of the rabbis. [1]

He separated himself from his wife, because, said R. Simeon b. Yochai, Moses thus reasoned to himself: 'If in connection with Mount Sinai, which was hallowed only for the occasion [of Revelation], we were told: Come not near a woman (Exodus 19:15), then how much more must I, to whom He speaks at all times, separate myself from my wife?' R. Akiva said: [No!] it was God Himself who told him [to separate himself from his wife], for it says, With him do I speak mouth to mouth (Numbers 12:8)
R. Judah also said that it was told him directly by God. For Moses too was included in the injunction, ' Come not near a woman,' thus all were forbidden; and when He afterwards said: 'Return you to your tents' (Deuteronomy 5:27) He permitted them [to their husbands]. Moses then asked: ' Am I included in them?' and God replied: �No; but As for you, stand here by Me' (Exodus 33:28).
Another inference which Moses deduced was this: �If God did not speak to me even on Sinai, which was hallowed only for the occasion, prior to calling me,' as it says, And the Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying... (Exodus 19:3), �then assuredly He will also call me when He wishes to speak to me from the Tent of Meeting.' http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/celibacy.html#[2]
​

There is no hint in the Old Testament that after Moses was called to service by God, that he ever was intimate with his wife again, and she in fact is rarely mentioned after Exodus 3 at all. There is no mention of new children of Moses that would have generated after his encounter with God. Jewish tradition thus saw Moses as celibate after his encounter with God. We also see in Exodus 19:15 Moses commanding temporary continence of married people (continence is termed for though being lawful to have sex with a wife, they give it up for the sake of God).

both quotes from here:
http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/celibacy.html

Given this, if Mary had subsequent children, it would be evidence that Jesus was not conceived by God.

Further, early non-Christian sources report that Mary had only one child. A Christian detractor, the pagan Celsus (2nd century) reports what he has heard from the Jews as a slam against Christ and Mary; as part of the account, Celsus (per the Jews) reports only Jesus as the child of Mary. (The account describes how Mary was turned out of Joseph's house for adultery, and she and Jesus lived in Egypt. Later the two return to Palestine.)

 

[prodromos]

For Joseph to remain celibate after his marriage to Mary would not be in keeping with Jewish tradition.

You seem to be unaware of the Jewish tradition of celibate marriages spelled out in Numbers 30. What is the Jewish tradition you are referring to and what are your sources for said tradition?

John

 

[MamaZ]

You seem to be unaware of the Jewish tradition of celibate marriages spelled out in Numbers 30. What is the Jewish tradition you are referring to and what are your sources for said tradition?

John

I guess that I am not understanding why you believe that Numbers 30 is speaking of celibacy.

 

[prodromos]

I guess that I am not understanding why you believe that Numbers 30 is speaking of celibacy.

What sort of vows do you expect a woman may make which her husband would likely reject? What sort of vows might a single woman make which her father would likely reject?

Celibacy immediately comes to mind, but if you have other suggestions then by all means present them.

John

 

[Faith.Man]

Actually, it would be in keeping with the Jewish tradition that subsequent to being in the presence of God, one becomes chaste. This was the contemporary teaching on Moses after his encounter with God.

Gal 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

Actually, the text should read the Lord's little brother, but I won't quibble. No one can dispute Paul's knowledge of Jewish practices and acceptable behavior. Why would he say this if it wasn't true?

James is described as the adelphos of Christ; as no further descriptive is provided to explain what the particular narrowed meaning of adelphos is, we can only know that he was an adelphos. Brother is one, but not the only, meaning of adelphos. If the author had intended a particular meaning, a further description is required per the language.

See and use the link below.

Thank-you. I have read these verses many times. The word used here is adelphoi, but the meaning of adelphoi is not given, so we cannot know which of the aprox. dozen meanings is meant by the term.

The word clearly means brother. I refer you to the following link for a detailed explanation. You're welcome.

The Translation of Adelphos and Adelphoi

 

[Thekla]

Gal 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

Actually, the text should read the Lord's little brother, but I won't quibble. No one can dispute Paul's knowledge of Jewish practices and acceptable behavior. Why would he say this if it wasn't true?



See and use the link below.



The word clearly means brother. I refer you to the following link for a detailed explanation. You're welcome.

The Translation of Adelphos and Adelphoi

Thanks for your interest;

the link you provided gives an abbreviated definition as its chief interest (thesis) concerns "sexism". That the definition used in this article is truncated is easily demonstrated by the use of the term in the OT (LXX) and in contemporary secular usage (Greek and Semitic).


To reiterate: both Greek and Hebrew languages come from patriarchal cultures. Adelphoi (as its concurrent usage attests) refers to a common father. The father of reference can be removed by generations (as in cousin, etc.) may be the 'father of origin' (as in tribe) may be a metaphorical father (fatherland, as in fellow countryman or originating idea, as in ideological adelphoi) or spiritual (as in God the Father).


In the article you cite, is it claimed that Lot and Abraham actually were brothers ? They are called "adelphoi". Does the article claim that Herod and Phillip had the same parents ? The NT attests that they are adelphoi. From historical account we know they were stepbrothers. Both "stepbrother" and "uncle/nephew" are some common meanings of "adelphos"; there are many more meanings in addition to the several I've mentioned here.