If Jesus was standing right in front of you....

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Atlantians

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sherri said:
And your point is?


(I'm still waiting to be refuted)
I did refute you.

Sherri said:
Oh really? And so what does the scripture "By his stripes you have been healed" mean?

It doesn't say 'saved', it doesn't say 'redeemed', it says 'healed'.
In response to this I quoted Peter who interpreted the verse in saying:
1st Peter 2:24-
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

(Stripes and wounds are synonomys. The NIV rendres it wounds in both Peter and Isaiah, most others say stripes for both.)

Peter clearly says that "healed" means what we call "redeemed" in that verse.
So by his stripes we are healed, means by his stripes our sin nature has been atoned for, we have been redeemed. Thus the healing is not physical but spiritual.
 
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lismore

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Atlantians said:
That is simple.
That verse is talking about Isaiah 53:4.
Peter is talking about Isaiah 53:5.
Isaiah 53:4 is a prophesy of the healings Jesus did in his ministry to show he was the messiah.
.

So when you say physical healing is not in the atonement in any way, thats not true. It is in the atonement, but you're reaching this different interpretation saying it has ceased?

:wave:
 
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Tamara224

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TreeOfLife said:
Yeah, cause you know, He might say one thing to one person, and entirely something else to another. It's a real crap-shoot. You never can know the will of God. After all, He is God, and kind of like a crap-shoot.

Gosh, I wish He would have given us some direction, you know, like maybe a book or something.

What presumption! Do you claim to know what is said between others and God? Or do you claim that God does not speak to people in a personal way but only through the Bible? Do you have some Scripture to back up your claim? Or do you find the questions posed as if from the mouth of God somewhere in the Bible? If so... prove it.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


probinson said:
I'm curious how this thread is different from Jim M's thread asking "What if God never answered another prayer"?

Both questions are soliciting a response regarding our relationship with God. One is not different than the other.

I see your point, but I wonder why you address me on this one? Did you see me posting in agreement in Jim's thread? I'm not a moderator so I don't understand why it is that anyone expects me to police every thread. :scratch: I added my two cents to this one in agreement with FireOfGod.

For the sake of answering your question, though.... I do see a difference between the two questions. One is asking what our reasons for serving God are by posing a hypothetical situation that does not put words in God's mouth (I didn't post in response because I found it 'iffy' but not entirely objectionable); the other is directly putting words in God's mouth based on doctrinal disagreements, as if anyone can know what God would say (not has said) to someone else about their personally held convictions/doctrines. It's presumptuous and foolish, imo. There is not one of us who is right about everything and anyone who says otherwise is a fool. But our doctrinal errors are between us and God and He will teach us if we are teachable.
 
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probinson

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Tamara224 said:
I see your point, but I wonder why you address me on this one?
Did you see me posting in agreement in Jim's thread? I'm not a moderator so I don't understand why it is that anyone expects me to police every thread. :scratch: I added my two cents to this one in agreement with FireOfGod.
Fair enough, and I don't expect you to police every thread. My post wasn't addressed so much at you as I was quoting to point out the similarity between the 2 threads.
Tamara224 said:
For the sake of answering your question, though.... I do see a difference between the two questions. One is asking what our reasons for serving God are by posing a hypothetical situation that does not put words in God's mouth (I didn't post in response because I found it 'iffy' but not entirely objectionable); the other is directly putting words in God's mouth based on doctrinal disagreements, as if anyone can know what God would say (not has said) to someone else about their personally held convictions/doctrines. It's presumptuous and foolish, imo. There is not one of us who is right about everything and anyone who says otherwise is a fool. But our doctrinal errors are between us and God and He will teach us if we are teachable.
Well, both were hypothetical questions. This one asked what IF Jesus said ________ and the other said what IF God DIDN'T say _______. Both are merely hypothetical questions and nothing more. I did not see either post as putting words in, or removing words from, God's mouth.
 
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FireOfGod

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Tamara224 said:
For the sake of answering your question, though.... I do see a difference between the two questions. One is asking what our reasons for serving God are by posing a hypothetical situation that does not put words in God's mouth (I didn't post in response because I found it 'iffy' but not entirely objectionable); the other is directly putting words in God's mouth based on doctrinal disagreements, as if anyone can know what God would say (not has said) to someone else about their personally held convictions/doctrines. It's presumptuous and foolish, imo. There is not one of us who is right about everything and anyone who says otherwise is a fool. But our doctrinal errors are between us and God and He will teach us if we are teachable.
I think this thread also started out as a hypothetical question... But later on into the thread it started turning into a thing where people were putting words in God's mouth.
 
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jeolmstead

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churchlady said:
ODE to a Nincompoop


Are you a 'leaf in the wind'
Are you a cat in the hat
Are you 'hounded and abused'
Or just this or that?​

Well, you can't eat it with a spoon
You can't eat it with a scoop
It's a 'doctrine', you see
This 'nincompoop'​

It says that you're silly
It says you're a fool
You're in 'deep do-do' trouble
And that's not cool

It's not very kind
It's not very nice
It's worse than having
Your head in a vice

So go run with the dogs
Go run with the horses
But when the nincom'poop' hits the fan

We'll all change our courses

LOL! ^_^ Amen!
 
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Atlantians

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lismore said:
So when you say physical healing is not in the atonement in any way, thats not true. It is in the atonement, but you're reaching this different interpretation saying it has ceased?

:wave:
What are you talking about?
Are you saying that I am saying healing has ceased?
If so why do you insist in thread after thread putting words in my mouth that I never implied or intended on saying?
Cease this nonsense.

I said clearly and quite clearly proved from scripture that "by his stripes we are healed" is spiritual. It means that Christs beatings were for our salvation and spiritual restoration. Not physical healing.
Thus healing of the physical, was of no part in the plan of God during the atonement of our sins at the Cross.
To says so, is to say something that has no basis in scripture.
The Atonement was for our sins alone, and how loving a death he died.:cry:
Every lash he took was for all my sins to be forgiven.:clap:
Not so that a cold, or any other temporal sickness, disease, or injury would be healed.
That detracts so greatly, and takes the focus so terribly off the actual purpose of the death Christ allowed to befall on himself.:(
 
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lismore

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Atlantians said:
What are you talking about?
Are you saying that I am saying healing has ceased?
If so why do you insist in thread after thread putting words in my mouth that I never implied or intended on saying?
Cease this nonsense.

Hi there:wave: Please dont be upset. I didnt mean to upset you.

Please listen carefully. You say Isaiah 53:4-5 is talking only about 'spiritual healing'. Matthew 8:16-17 clearly links it to Jesus healing the sick too. Therefore what you are saying fails the berean test and makes you look like a duck on a hot tin.

Others like Jim M and tamarra ( and perhaps yourself, I dont know) and saying that healing was in the atonement, but only to show to the galieans that Jesus was the messiah. Now that PHIA has ceased, been taken out or something (please dont jump on me for the wrong terminology).

You will probably convince more people with the ceased view than with the never there view. because the bible clearly links Physical healing to Is 53.

Im not saying you believe healing has ceased. As far as I know, you believe healing is a giant question mark, punctuated by impish changing criteria labelled as God's plan, in which anything is accepted as the will of God? Please correct me if im wrong.

:wave:
 
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probinson

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What baffles me to no end is that someone can claim that saying that healing is included in the atonement is somehow "detracting" or "diminishing" the atonement.

Some say the atonement is for sins. Period.

I say the atonment is for sins, sickness, disease, mental anguish, poverty, stress, inadequacy...

But yet I'm the one that's diminishing God's sacrifice?

God did it ALL! He took care of it all at the cross! That doesn't detract from anything and finds a wonderful basis in scripture as has been posted here ad nauseum.

The purpose of God's sacrifce was to make us "sozo", completely whole, spirit, soul and body.
 
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Christina M

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probinson said:
Some say the atonement is for sins. Period.

I say the atonment is for sins, sickness, disease, mental anguish, poverty, stress, inadequacy...

But yet I'm the one that's diminishing God's sacrifice?

God did it ALL! He took care of it all at the cross! That doesn't detract from anything and finds a wonderful basis in scripture as has been posted here ad nauseum.

The purpose of God's sacrifce was to make us "sozo", completely whole, spirit, soul and body.


It is so baffling, Pete, that people really think it is a negative (some go so far as to say evil or heretical) to say God did so much for us:scratch: :scratch:


Why would anyone put limits on God....??

My conclusion is FEAR keeps them from receiving the fullness... the sozo. :( And when one fears they tend to close down and strike out.
 
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lismore said:
. You say Isaiah 53:4-5 is talking only about 'spiritual healing'. Matthew 8:16-17 clearly links it to Jesus healing the sick too. Therefore what you are saying fails the berean test and makes you look like a duck on a hot tin.

But the comment in Matthew 8:17 is that this - ie Jesus' ministry of healing of which he had just given an example - was to fulfill the Scripture in Isaiah. Jesus' death on the cross is not mentioned.

"He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases",

was fulfilled, Matthew says, when Jesus healed many people. So how can this be proof that his death was for our physical healing?

I had not heard this view before I came on this site, so this is a genuine question.
 
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FireOfGod

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probinson said:
What baffles me to no end is that someone can claim that saying that healing is included in the atonement is somehow "detracting" or "diminishing" the atonement.

Some say the atonement is for sins. Period.

I say the atonment is for sins, sickness, disease, mental anguish, poverty, stress, inadequacy...

But yet I'm the one that's diminishing God's sacrifice?

God did it ALL! He took care of it all at the cross! That doesn't detract from anything and finds a wonderful basis in scripture as has been posted here ad nauseum.

The purpose of God's sacrifce was to make us "sozo", completely whole, spirit, soul and body.
ABSOLUTELY!! God SAVED us... Not only from Hell, but from everything in Hell that would torment us while we were here. :thumbsup:
 
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ub4me

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I Would Say
I Am Sorry Lord If My Walk Wasn't According To Your Will, But Thank You That You Still Love Me
And That I Can Still Realize My Total Healing This Day In You, That Because Of You In Me, I Am Now Made Whole....

Just Like All The Things I Battled In The Flesh....it Was A Spiritual Battle
Sometimes Even To Believe, Yet I Prayed That You Help My Unbelief. SHOWING MY NEED FOR YOU.

And Though Things That Were not Realized Then Caused Me To Suffer More Than I Had To, Yet In The End ,I Thank You For Your Mercy And Grace That Covered Me To Endure Until This Moment...I Love You Abba
 
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jeolmstead

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ub4me said:
I Would Say
I Am Sorry Lord If My Walk Wasn't According To Your Will, But Thank You That You Still Love Me
And That I Can Still Realize My Total Healing This Day In You, That Because Of You In Me, I Am Now Made Whole....

Just Like All The Things I Battled In The Flesh....it Was A Spiritual Battle
Sometimes Even To Believe, Yet I Prayed That You Help My Unbelief. SHOWING MY NEED FOR YOU.

And Though Things That Were not Realized Then Caused Me To Suffer More Than I Had To, Yet In The End ,I Thank You For Your Mercy And Grace That Covered Me To Endure Until This Moment...I Love You Abba

Well said.....God bless you!

John O.
 
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ChristianMuse

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Latreia said:
Jesus Christ would not ask anything.
He knows each soul.

He would not ask me to speak.

I would be simply weeping.

He would understand all.

My thoughts if Jesus showed up in front of me...

I would hit the ground in front of his feet,
In Fearful respect of His Power.

I would worship with all my heart, mind and strength,
In the Wonder of His Being.

I would weep for joy,
In His bountiful Grace to a sinner such as I.

If he were then to ask a question...
I would be silent...

Awaiting,
Mercy!
 
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lismore

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Strong in Him said:
But the comment in Matthew 8:17 is that this - ie Jesus' ministry of healing of which he had just given an example - was to fulfill the Scripture in Isaiah. Jesus' death on the cross is not mentioned.

"He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases",

was fulfilled, Matthew says, when Jesus healed many people. So how can this be proof that his death was for our physical healing?

I had not heard this view before I came on this site, so this is a genuine question.

Hi there:wave:

I hope you are well.

I would just find it hard to believe that healing a bunch of lads in one village back then qualifies as "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases". I mean he took up our infirmities, how do I releate 'our' to those people back then? 'Our' would have to be theirs and mine too? Otherwise it would be better translated 'surely he carried their infirmities'

:scratch:
 
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lismore

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Atlantians said:
That is simple.
That verse is talking about Isaiah 53:4.
Peter is talking about Isaiah 53:5.
Isaiah 53:4 is a prophesy of the healings Jesus did in his ministry to show he was the messiah.
Isaiah 53:5 is the prophesy of his sin atoning beatings and death on that cross, by his stripes we were healed unto righeousness from a nature of sinful spiritual death.

:wave:

So what do you believe about healings today?
 
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Strong in Him

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lismore said:
Hi there:wave:

I hope you are well.

I would just find it hard to believe that healing a bunch of lads in one village back then qualifies as "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases". I mean he took up our infirmities, how do I releate 'our' to those people back then? 'Our' would have to be theirs and mine too? Otherwise it would be better translated 'surely he carried their infirmities'

:scratch:

Hi Lismore,

Not bad thanks, though I probably should be in bed, or something. :yawn:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that Jesus' healings were limited to when he was on earth. I've just always understood that verse to mean that Isaiah prophesied that God's chosen one would be someone who healed and was able to take away sickness, and this was fulfilled when Jesus healed people. Another evidence that he was the Messiah, because he healed just as it had been prophesied that he would.

This is how it reads, to me, in Matthew's Gospel. Matthew has already explained to his readers that Jesus' conception and birth were extraordinary, but that they were fulfilment of Jewish Scriptures. When Jesus began his preaching ministry, described in Chapter 4:12-17, it was a fulfilment of Scripture. All through the Beatitudes we read the phrase "you have been told ..... (reference to Jewish law) but I say to you." And in chapter 8 we begin to read about Jesus' healings, which Matthew says were a fulfilment of Scripture. His Jewish readers would have known immediately the Scripture in Isaiah, which talks about the servant of the Lord, as do chapters 42 and 49 onwards. "The servant of the Lord" came to be an accepted Messianic title. Matthew is saying to his readers, "look, Jesus is the Messiah, he fulfilled all these Old Testament prophecies." He, a Jew, took up our infirmities and healed our illnesses, i.e the sicknesses of the Jewish people among whom he was living. Or that's how I read it anyway.

I would have expected that if this verse referred to his death on the cross and atonement that Matthew would have repeated in later on in his Gospel so that there was no doubt. At the last supper Jesus said that he would die just as it had been written, and spoke of his blood as being of the new covenant, which was for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28) Surely if his blood had been poured out for mankind's physical healing, he would have made the point clear? But neither Jesus nor Matthew quote Isaiah at this point, far less suggest that his death was for physical healing of mankind.

It is very clear from the New Testament that Jesus died for our sins. Surely if he had also died for our physical healing it would have been taught equally as much? God wants us to hear, and be clear about, all his Gospel, not just part of it.

Jesus does heal today, because he is alive and is the same yesterday, today and forever. The New Testament speaks of a gift of healing, of people being healed through the laying on of hands, the calling of elders and anointing of oil. Surely if healing were already provided for in the atonement, all that would have been needed would have been for the apostles to remind people that they were healed when they accepted Jesus?

:scratch:
 
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Christina M

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ub4me said:
I Would Say
I Am Sorry Lord If My Walk Wasn't According To Your Will, But Thank You That You Still Love Me
And That I Can Still Realize My Total Healing This Day In You, That Because Of You In Me, I Am Now Made Whole....

Just Like All The Things I Battled In The Flesh....it Was A Spiritual Battle
Sometimes Even To Believe, Yet I Prayed That You Help My Unbelief. SHOWING MY NEED FOR YOU.

And Though Things That Were not Realized Then Caused Me To Suffer More Than I Had To, Yet In The End ,I Thank You For Your Mercy And Grace That Covered Me To Endure Until This Moment...I Love You Abba


I would be totally humiliated that the Lord God Himself had told me what I needed to do (just like the parable of the talents) and I had not done what He said.

Do so many of you REALLY think the Lord is just going to melt at your "humility" and not hold you accountable for what you should have done, or not done???

So many of you here who are into "chastisement" and "suffering" here on earth don't seem to think it is going to apply when you stand before the Lord. You seem to think all you have to do is prostrate yourself and cry and He will let you off scot-free.

The Word is clear.... we WILL be held accountable. I want to stand in front of Him and hear "Well done, good and faithful servant!" Not "Why did you not do what I told you to do?"

Some of you may think He wouldn't ask that... but I believe... and the Word is clear... you are mistaken.
 
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