If Jesus died for the whole world why isn't the whole world saved?

Blade · Jan 16, 2018

Ah.. there in is the GOOD NEWS! That is what you tell them. God can not go against YOUR free will. As a believer I can ask you now why you dont do this or that ..which the word says you should be doing. Why are you not doing it? Why does GOD not MAKE You do it? He can't.

Even though the free choice Adam and Eve made based on a lie. The. Father HAS to do it legally. Meaning.. it has to be given.. and then YOU have to take this free gift or not. So He sees this world as a field white ready to harvest. WHERE OH WHERE are all the labourers? We KNOW they will be lost.. we KNOW so many have not heard... so what will YOU do about it

SBC · Jan 16, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
For most of my Christian walk I believed that Jesus died for the elect a.k.a his sheep as said in John 10:7, John 10:11, , John 10:15, and John 10:26. Also in John 17 in Jesus's prayer to the Father he talks about saving the sheep and not the whole world. But there are other verses in the bible that begin to bother me like 1 John 2:2 where it says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

and John 3:16-17 where it says

" For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Well if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why doesn't everyone go to be with Jesus when they die? Why is it only the elect that enter heaven? It makes more sense that Jesus died for all who he foreknew would come to him to salvation doesn't it? Only Jesus's sheep are saved in the long run all others are not. All Christians can agree on this. So, why die for the whole world when the whole world can't be saved? Only those who come to Jesus for salvation can be saved and God knew ahead of time who would and who wouldn't come to Jesus for salvation so it makes the most amount of sense that Jesus died for his sheep doesn't it? After all, why would Jesus say in most of John 10 "I die for my sheep" if he didn't die for his sheep?. So, I don't understand it. If it is the truth that Jesus died for the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why do people still go to hell and why are only Jesus's sheep saved? It doesn't make any sense to me. Not at all. That sounds a lot more unfair to me personally then to say that Jesus died for everyone who he foreknew would come to him for salvation. I mean, that doesn't say that Jesus chose people for hell it says that Jesus chose every single person on the Earth that could possibly be saved.

I mean, predestination is something taught in Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20. So, why does some parts of the Bible seem to teach that Jesus died for the sins of the world? The bible can't contradict itself can it?

The Bible does not contradict itself.
Keep the ones involved straight.

Jesus gave His Body, His Blood, for the Life of the World.

The Life of the World, are the People of the World.

Two separate things ~
Jesus the Lord from Heaven.
People of the World from Earth.

Jesus GAVE, His Body, His Blood.
It's done.
Anyone of the World can "accept" His Body, His Blood.

No one OF the World is FORCED to "TAKE", what Jesus "GAVE".

And ANYONE of the World, WHO chooses to "NOT TAKE' what Jesus "GAVE"....

Does not CHANGE the FACT, He GAVE it.

A great deal of Scripture IS about what IS Given By God.

And a great deal of Scripture IS about what IS Given, must BE TAKEN, by the People of the World, who individually Choose to TAKE what God GIVES.

God Bless,
SBC

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 17, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
For most of my Christian walk I believed that Jesus died for the elect a.k.a his sheep as said in John 10:7, John 10:11, , John 10:15, and John 10:26. Also in John 17 in Jesus's prayer to the Father he talks about saving the sheep and not the whole world. But there are other verses in the bible that begin to bother me like 1 John 2:2 where it says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

and John 3:16-17 where it says

" For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Well if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why doesn't everyone go to be with Jesus when they die? Why is it only the elect that enter heaven? It makes more sense that Jesus died for all who he foreknew would come to him to salvation doesn't it? Only Jesus's sheep are saved in the long run all others are not. All Christians can agree on this. So, why die for the whole world when the whole world can't be saved? Only those who come to Jesus for salvation can be saved and God knew ahead of time who would and who wouldn't come to Jesus for salvation so it makes the most amount of sense that Jesus died for his sheep doesn't it? After all, why would Jesus say in most of John 10 "I die for my sheep" if he didn't die for his sheep?. So, I don't understand it. If it is the truth that Jesus died for the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why do people still go to hell and why are only Jesus's sheep saved? It doesn't make any sense to me. Not at all. That sounds a lot more unfair to me personally then to say that Jesus died for everyone who he foreknew would come to him for salvation. I mean, that doesn't say that Jesus chose people for hell it says that Jesus chose every single person on the Earth that could possibly be saved.

I mean, predestination is something taught in Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20. So, why does some parts of the Bible seem to teach that Jesus died for the sins of the world? The bible can't contradict itself can it?

Because there are other conditions besides an atonement.
The predestination in those verses is not talking about individual predestination like you are laying it out. It's talking about the predestination of the plan. purpose and timing of God bring the messiah into the world and what that would accomplish. Read the chapters a little more carefully and you will see that is the context of them.

Kristen Davis · Jan 17, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
For most of my Christian walk I believed that Jesus died for the elect a.k.a his sheep as said in John 10:7, John 10:11, , John 10:15, and John 10:26. Also in John 17 in Jesus's prayer to the Father he talks about saving the sheep and not the whole world. But there are other verses in the bible that begin to bother me like 1 John 2:2 where it says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

and John 3:16-17 where it says

" For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Well if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why doesn't everyone go to be with Jesus when they die? Why is it only the elect that enter heaven? It makes more sense that Jesus died for all who he foreknew would come to him to salvation doesn't it? Only Jesus's sheep are saved in the long run all others are not. All Christians can agree on this. So, why die for the whole world when the whole world can't be saved? Only those who come to Jesus for salvation can be saved and God knew ahead of time who would and who wouldn't come to Jesus for salvation so it makes the most amount of sense that Jesus died for his sheep doesn't it? After all, why would Jesus say in most of John 10 "I die for my sheep" if he didn't die for his sheep?. So, I don't understand it. If it is the truth that Jesus died for the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why do people still go to hell and why are only Jesus's sheep saved? It doesn't make any sense to me. Not at all. That sounds a lot more unfair to me personally then to say that Jesus died for everyone who he foreknew would come to him for salvation. I mean, that doesn't say that Jesus chose people for hell it says that Jesus chose every single person on the Earth that could possibly be saved.

I mean, predestination is something taught in Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20. So, why does some parts of the Bible seem to teach that Jesus died for the sins of the world? The bible can't contradict itself can it?

Salvation is only granted towards those worthy of it. Jesus will not reward unholy disloyal behavior he only grants salvation to his chosen ones.

mkgal1 · Jan 17, 2018

On predestination? I think it's been mentioned already (that it was God's plan that was predetermined....not individuals)...but I found this article about John Duns Scotus's theology related to that and I believe this brings clarity to the text.

In order to understand....one first has to dismantle the presumption that His incarnation was due to the fall. Scotus believed that Christ would have come regardless....to demonstrate His love for us:

Linked Article said:
The Necessity of the Incarnation. Scotus believed the Incarnation was the greatest good God had done in the world—perhaps not the most original or controversial position. But the questions this truth raised for him took him to new heights in theological speculation. The Church has long understood the Incarnation at the center of God’s redemptive plan for mankind and all creation, as indeed it was. But what if there had been no need for redemption? What if there had never been a fall from an original state of grace? Would there still have been an Incarnation? For Scotus, it was unthinkable that such a great good was somehow contingent on humanity sinning. He concluded: “To think that God would have given up such a task had Adam not sinned would be quite unreasonable! I say, therefore, that the fall was not the cause of Christ’s predestination and that if no one had fallen, neither the angel nor man in this hypothesis Christ would still have been predestined in the same way.”~https://catholicexchange.com/four-things-need-know-john-duns-scotus

.....then read Eph 1:4 and 1st Peter 1:20 (along with 1st Timothy 2:4 that states, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.") and there's no inconsistency at all.

mkgal1 · Jan 17, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
It makes more sense to say that God died for those who will come to believe in him. Those sins are forever covered. Because aren't only the sins of the saved covered?

You mean "forgiven"....right (when you say "covered")? That's what a lot of us were taught....the whole idea that "Christians aren't perfect......just forgiven"? I don't think that's good theology....personally. I don't believe salvation is what it's been made out to be (the whole...."say a prayer and ask for forgiveness and then you're 'in'....but others who don't are 'out').

When does the Bible say God died for us? While we were still sinners....right?

"But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us".~Romans 5:8

"For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly".~Romans 5:6

......so that's everyone.....correct? Otherwise.....God would be a hypocrite since Jesus said this:

"But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you..."~Luke 6:27

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34“If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."~Luke 6:32-36

Andy centek · Jan 17, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
For most of my Christian walk I believed that Jesus died for the elect a.k.a his sheep as said in John 10:7, John 10:11, , John 10:15, and John 10:26. Also in John 17 in Jesus's prayer to the Father he talks about saving the sheep and not the whole world. But there are other verses in the bible that begin to bother me like 1 John 2:2 where it says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

and John 3:16-17 where it says

" For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Well if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why doesn't everyone go to be with Jesus when they die? Why is it only the elect that enter heaven? It makes more sense that Jesus died for all who he foreknew would come to him to salvation doesn't it? Only Jesus's sheep are saved in the long run all others are not. All Christians can agree on this. So, why die for the whole world when the whole world can't be saved? Only those who come to Jesus for salvation can be saved and God knew ahead of time who would and who wouldn't come to Jesus for salvation so it makes the most amount of sense that Jesus died for his sheep doesn't it? After all, why would Jesus say in most of John 10 "I die for my sheep" if he didn't die for his sheep?. So, I don't understand it. If it is the truth that Jesus died for the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why do people still go to hell and why are only Jesus's sheep saved? It doesn't make any sense to me. Not at all. That sounds a lot more unfair to me personally then to say that Jesus died for everyone who he foreknew would come to him for salvation. I mean, that doesn't say that Jesus chose people for hell it says that Jesus chose every single person on the Earth that could possibly be saved.

I mean, predestination is something taught in Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20. So, why does some parts of the Bible seem to teach that Jesus died for the sins of the world? The bible can't contradict itself can it?

JoeP222w said:
Jesus did not die for the whole world, but those who believe in Him, by His grace.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Who are the ones who believe in Him?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Andy centek · Jan 17, 2018

JOEP22

Well said my brother. When one puts the scriptures in their proper place and order they speak loud and correctly.
Jesus first came to His own, the house of Israel; who, for the most, rejected Him to their own spiritual ruin.
Then Jesus sent the apostle Paul to the Gentles world to bring in the other sheep fold, the Gentiles.

Andy C

planet_joe · Jan 17, 2018

When the Bible talks about Christ dying for the sins of the world, I take that to mean the world as opposed to Jews only. The breakdown of ethnic barriers seems to be a big theme in the New Testament, where it goes on about every tribe and tongue, in Christ there being neither Jew nor Gentile, etc. I don't take it to mean every individual, because then I agree election wouldn't make much sense. I mean I suppose you could say Jesus died for every individual if you're talking hypothetically about the potential of every individual to be justified by faith. But faith is only part of the equation; regeneration is the other part. And if Jesus' death were to regenerate everyone and thus lead to everyone becoming a believer (I of course am taking the Calvinist position on here, I think it's biblical, though obviously this is the sort of thing Christians love to argue to death on forums), then how would you factor in election and predestination? I know some Christians flat out deny election / predestination... although they're spelled out pretty explicitly in St Paul's letters. I just think that God is ultimately more interested in glorifying himself than in saving humans, Romans 9 seems to make that obvious. God declines to save everyone because he seeks his own glory in the damnation of others and calls it justice. Which is why Paul addresses the question in Romans 9, about how can God find fault with people if this is the case. To which Paul basically says shut up. Which is one reason I stopped being a Christian a while ago. Wonder if I still am sometimes, but hey here I am on this forum.

sdowney717 · Jan 18, 2018

planet_joe said:
When the Bible talks about Christ dying for the sins of the world, I take that to mean the world as opposed to Jews only. The breakdown of ethnic barriers seems to be a big theme in the New Testament, where it goes on about every tribe and tongue, in Christ there being neither Jew nor Gentile, etc. I don't take it to mean every individual, because then I agree election wouldn't make much sense. I mean I suppose you could say Jesus died for every individual if you're talking hypothetically about the potential of every individual to be justified by faith. But faith is only part of the equation; regeneration is the other part. And if Jesus' death were to regenerate everyone and thus lead to everyone becoming a believer (I of course am taking the Calvinist position on here, I think it's biblical, though obviously this is the sort of thing Christians love to argue to death on forums), then how would you factor in election and predestination? I know some Christians flat out deny election / predestination... although they're spelled out pretty explicitly in St Paul's letters. I just think that God is ultimately more interested in glorifying himself than in saving humans, Romans 9 seems to make that obvious. God declines to save everyone because he seeks his own glory in the damnation of others and calls it justice. Which is why Paul addresses the question in Romans 9, about how can God find fault with people if this is the case. To which Paul basically says shut up. Which is one reason I stopped being a Christian a while ago. Wonder if I still am sometimes, but hey here I am on this forum.

Everyone who is born sins eventually and the soul that sins God says will die. So God decided to redeem for His own self His own special people. That is unchanged from ancient times down to today.

2 Samuel 7:23
And who is like Your people, like Israel, the one nation on the earth whom God went to redeem for Himself as a people, to make for Himself a name—and to do for Yourself great and awesome deeds for Your land—before Your people whom You redeemed for Yourself from Egypt, the nations, and their gods?

Titus 2:13-15New King James Version (NKJV)
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Grip Docility · Jan 18, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
For most of my Christian walk I believed that Jesus died for the elect a.k.a his sheep as said in John 10:7, John 10:11, , John 10:15, and John 10:26. Also in John 17 in Jesus's prayer to the Father he talks about saving the sheep and not the whole world. But there are other verses in the bible that begin to bother me like 1 John 2:2 where it says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

and John 3:16-17 where it says

" For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Well if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why doesn't everyone go to be with Jesus when they die? Why is it only the elect that enter heaven? It makes more sense that Jesus died for all who he foreknew would come to him to salvation doesn't it? Only Jesus's sheep are saved in the long run all others are not. All Christians can agree on this. So, why die for the whole world when the whole world can't be saved? Only those who come to Jesus for salvation can be saved and God knew ahead of time who would and who wouldn't come to Jesus for salvation so it makes the most amount of sense that Jesus died for his sheep doesn't it? After all, why would Jesus say in most of John 10 "I die for my sheep" if he didn't die for his sheep?. So, I don't understand it. If it is the truth that Jesus died for the whole world and everyone's sins are covered why do people still go to hell and why are only Jesus's sheep saved? It doesn't make any sense to me. Not at all. That sounds a lot more unfair to me personally then to say that Jesus died for everyone who he foreknew would come to him for salvation. I mean, that doesn't say that Jesus chose people for hell it says that Jesus chose every single person on the Earth that could possibly be saved.

I mean, predestination is something taught in Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20. So, why does some parts of the Bible seem to teach that Jesus died for the sins of the world? The bible can't contradict itself can it?

Augustine and Calvin are most likely saved... but I’m fairly certain God is going to slap them around a few times over the foundation for the content of your reformed ideas,

1 John 2:2 and Hebrews 2:8 can’t be erased.

Humanity has choice and though I pray all will come to repentance... since 2 Peter 3:9 says that is God’s Desire... you know... His will be done... not mine...

Anyhow... even though... because of human choice that is God’s gift... some may try to kill God when He returns and those some may persist to their own peril.

Read it several times... 1 John 2:2 and Hebrews 2:8

Calvin and Augustine were theological error at its most intense!

sdowney717 · Jan 18, 2018

Grip Docility said:
Augustine and Calvin are most likely saved... but I’m fairly certain God is going to slap them around a few times over the foundation for the content of your reformed ideas,

1 John 2:2 and Hebrews 2:8 can’t be erased.

Humanity has choice and though I pray all will come to repentance... since 2 Peter 3:9 says that is God’s Desire... you know... His will be done... not mine...

Anyhow... even though... because of human choice that is God’s gift... some may try to kill God when He returns and those some may persist to their own peril.

Read it several times... 1 John 2:2 and Hebrews 2:8

Calvin and Augustine were theological error at its most intense!

You can not comprehend 2 Peter 3:9 out of the context of the audience to whom Peter was writing.
That audience is not the world but is the beloved elect who will be saved. God is not willing that any of His very own elect be lost and so then patiently waits for them to repent as He knows they will.

Why would God patiently wait for some to repent that He knows never will?

Grip Docility · Jan 18, 2018

sdowney717 said:
You can not comprehend 2 Peter 3:9 out of the context of the audience to whom Peter was writing.
That audience is not the world but is the beloved elect who will be saved. God is not willing that any of His very own elect be lost and so then patiently waits for them to repent as He knows they will.

Why would God patiently wait for some to repent that He knows never will?

Reformed thinking... twisting the gospel for hundreds of years...

God is Love...

Faith, Hope and Love... and the greatest is Love...

Try again...

A note of challenge to you... James says God does not tempt... and yet He places the tree of Knowledge within reach of Adam and Eve...

Oops... your concept of how God deals with “foreknowledge” appears to make God the “Tempter”.

Back to reality, where God relates to us in real time and choice isn’t an illusion.

Sorry Bobby... even though mama says freewill is the devil... it’s actually a gift and preserved aspect of Creation... sustained by God Himself...

Comprende’?

Grip Docility · Jan 18, 2018

mkgal1 said:
You mean "forgiven"....right (when you say "covered")? That's what a lot of us were taught....the whole idea that "Christians aren't perfect......just forgiven"? I don't think that's good theology....personally. I don't believe salvation is what it's been made out to be (the whole...."say a prayer and ask for forgiveness and then you're 'in'....but others who don't are 'out').

When does the Bible say God died for us? While we were still sinners....right?

"But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us".~Romans 5:8

"For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly".~Romans 5:6

......so that's everyone.....correct? Otherwise.....God would be a hypocrite since Jesus said this:

"But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you..."~Luke 6:27

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34“If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."~Luke 6:32-36

Amen... our Heavenly Father Loves all of His kids...

Buzz_B · Jan 18, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
I suppose. I mean I'm trying to believe that God died for the sins of the whole world. I mean, most Christians do believe that so why can't I? But if God DID die for the whole world why isn't the whole world saved? Because the whole world won't come to him for salvation? That makes sense. But if the whole world won't come to him for salvation why bother dying for them at all? See what I'm getting at? It makes more sense to say that God died for those who will come to believe in him. Those sins are forever covered. Because aren't only the sins of the saved covered? Let's say for example that Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world and that the sins of the whole world are covered. Why do people still die? Doesn't sin lead to death? After all Jesus promised that everyone who believes in him will never die even though their bodies die. And if everyone's sins are covered why do people go to hell for not believing in Jesus? Because isn't it dying in our sins that cause us to go to hell (John 8:24)?

What you are missing is an issue of 2 Chronicles 25:4 "But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin."

This foreshadows Christ's ransom which principally applies to our being released from the sins of our father, Adam. Christ's ransom covers beyond that for those who embrace God's offer of grace through faith so that God can begin his work in them. But first and foremost the whole world was removed from the condemnation upon Adam that each of us could be judged based upon our own merits rather than condemned on the basis of what our father Adam did. That is why the ransom also covers not only our current slips into err caused of our inexperience, but also Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" ("Forbearance" there means that God endured our sins even though he was dipleased in with our sining. His love endured our sins of inexperience so that he did not repay us in full for our sins else he would have had to simply annihilate us. And that forbearance was also applied to the whole world making grace abound far more than did sin. What a wonderful God we have.)

mkgal1 · Jan 18, 2018

planet_joe said:
I just think that God is ultimately more interested in glorifying himself than in saving humans, Romans 9 seems to make that obvious. God declines to save everyone because he seeks his own glory in the damnation of others and calls it justice. Which is why Paul addresses the question in Romans 9, about how can God find fault with people if this is the case. To which Paul basically says shut up. Which is one reason I stopped being a Christian a while ago.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more?

What I'm specifically not understanding are your points about damnation--where are you getting that from Romans 9 (are you referring to the phrase, "prepared for destruction"?)....and what are you interpreting to mean that Paul is basically saying "shut up"?

mkgal1 · Jan 18, 2018

planet_joe said:
I just think that God is ultimately more interested in glorifying himself than in saving humans, Romans 9 seems to make that obvious. God declines to save everyone because he seeks his own glory in the damnation of others and calls it justice. Which is why Paul addresses the question in Romans 9, about how can God find fault with people if this is the case. To which Paul basically says shut up. Which is one reason I stopped being a Christian a while ago.

Regarding Romans 9:

----->We shouldn’t be fooled into thinking that the “vessels of honor, vessels of wrath” passage ends at Romans 9.22. On the contrary, Romans 9 through 11 is a sustained argument culminating in chapter 11: his point is that the “hardening” of Israel described in chapter 9 was only undertaken as a temporary measure and as a means to extend mercy to more, namely the Gentiles:

Again I ask: Did [the Jews] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! . . . Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11.11-12, 25)

Paul is saying that God only “hardened” the hearts of “natural”, ethnic Israel as a means to extend His grace outside ethnic Israel. Only recognizing this greater argument allows us to understand Paul’s justification of God in 9.18: “Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy – including that scoundrel Jacob and those scoundrels the Gentiles, like it or not – and He hardens whom He wants to harden – even His own chosen people, like it or not.”

But it doesn’t end there for those whose hearts He had hardened: “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you [Gentiles], provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” (11.22-23). This again shows continuity with Jeremiah 18, the background passage of the potter and the clay analogy in Romans 9, in which the potter refashions rather than discards the “marred”, uncooperative clay.~Disputing Calvinism: vessels of temporary, conditional wrath? - Undeception

SBC · Jan 18, 2018

mkgal1 said:
You mean "forgiven"....right (when you say "covered")? That's what a lot of us were taught....the whole idea that "Christians aren't perfect......just forgiven"? I don't think that's good theology....personally. I don't believe salvation is what it's been made out to be (the whole...."say a prayer and ask for forgiveness and then you're 'in'....but others who don't are 'out').

An individual calling on the NAME of the Lord, in TRUE BELIEF IN HIS HEART, is not just a prayer, and "you're in".

It IS a man GIVING / PRESENTING TO THE Lord, his own Living Body, as his Living Sacrifice TO THE Lord. That ACT of the man,
Is Given to men, by Gods Mercy, and acceptable to God, AS a mans reasonable service to God.

Rom 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the Mercies of God, THAT YE present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy Acceptable unto God,
Which IS your REASONABLE Service.

"IF" and "WHEN" a man chooses to Give his living body to the Lord....The Lord GIVES to that man MANY, blessings and gifts.

The FRIST gift, is Gods FORGIVENESS of all of the mans SINS.

Among other gifts, the Lord's Spirit, which is LIGHT, enters the man and COVERS all of the mans SINS (which is darkness), WITH Gods own LIGHT. God sees NO darkness, NO sin, remembers the mans SIN, no more.

Nor is the man able to SIN any more, BECAUSE GODS LIGHT is more powerful than Darkness.
1 John 3:9
Greater is He that IS IN YOU, than he that is in the world.
1 John 4:4

"But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us".~Romans 5:8

"For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly".~Romans 5:6

From the Foundation of the World, while the earth was being formed, the Lamb of God, was slain. Rev 13:8

.....so that's everyone.....correct?

The Lamb's BLOOD, is sufficient FOR EVERY mans SINS. But not EVERY man will CHOOSE to accept Jesus' BLOOD and Become Forgiven.

"But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you..."~Luke 6:27

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

But TO THOSE OF YOU...
IF YOU...

YOU WHO? YOU who HAVE exercised YOUR REASONABLE SERVICE......

IF YOU SHALL ALSO....
DO this, DO that, DO this, DO that...
(And there are NUMEROUS additional things taught that a man WHO has exercised his REASONABLE SERVICE "can do".)

AND? What about these additional things?
CREDIT
Accounted TO YOU.
CREDIT
TO YOU PROMISED BY GOD
CREDIT redeemable to you WHEN?
WHEN the Lord Returns.

The Lord SHALL bless you and gift you and reward you for your additional efforts IN SERVICE TO HIM,
Beyond your reasonable service of
Giving your living body To Him.

And IF you DO NOT DO additional SERVICE TO HIM?
You will forego, lose out on receiving additional blessing, gifts and rewards
FROM Him.

God Bless,
SBC

mkgal1 · Jan 18, 2018

SBC said:
An individual calling on the NAME of the Lord, in TRUE BELIEF IN HIS HEART, is not just a prayer, and "you're in".

That's often how I hear it presented (and see it lived out). The typical scenario I see is: a person had come up for some "altar call" at some point in their life and their life doesn't appear to be much different after that (with the exception of the ones that may have been into drugs and gave that up).....beyond their church attendance (maybe) and the friends they spend their time with. Their "heart" is often still the same (maybe even more arrogant and judgmental after their "conversion to Christ").

SBC said:
It IS a man GIVING / PRESENTING TO THE Lord, his own Living Body, as his Living Sacrifice TO THE Lord. That ACT of the man,
Is Given to men, by Gods Mercy, and acceptable to God, AS a mans reasonable service to God.

....can you honestly say that most self-professed Christians you encounter actually LIVE in a way that appears they've presented their bodies as a "living sacrifice to the LORD"?

SBC said:
But not EVERY man will CHOOSE to accept Jesus' BLOOD and Become Forgiven.

Well....we're not at the end of the story yet Don't close the book just yet.

SBC · Jan 18, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's often how I hear it presented (and see it lived out).

I can agree with that. People poorly taught, it is all about "them" RECEIVING something for nothing.

....can you honestly say that most Christians you know actually LIVE in a way that appears they've presented their bodies as a "living sacrifice to the LORD"?

I would honestly say, most people calling themselves "Christians", and other people calling people "Christians" have very little understanding of the Christian Religion, let alone the understanding of the Word of God.

I can KNOW men by their fruits....
Many men, believers and non-believers produce fruits.....but not MANY belong to God, or are producing fruit FOR Gods glory.

God KNOWS "His people", by their spirits in their Hearts.
Which is between and individual and God.

Well....we're not at the end of the story yet Don't close the book just yet.

Agree. The book is FULL of KNOWLEDGE, however the Wisdom and Understanding comes from God TO "His people".

God Bless,
SBC

If Jesus died for the whole world why isn't the whole world saved?

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