If James White commits murder tomorrow....

[S.ilvio]

Is he still one of the Elect? Was he ever one of the Elect? Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

I'm a big fan of Dr. White's debates. Massive intellect and all round great guy. I just don't hold to his Faith alone/pre-destinational beliefs...

 

[spiritualchristian7]

Well, this is what I believe in...

HOMEMADE GOSPEL TRACT (COPY, PRINT AND SHARE THEM) (sincitypreacher)
DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN? ...IF SO, WHY?
SALVATION IS NOT EARNED THROUGH PERSONAL MERIT BUT IS A FREE GIFT FROM JESUS…Rom_10:3 For they don’t understand that Christ has died to make them right with God. Instead they are trying to make themselves good enough to gain God’s favor by keeping the laws and customs, but that is not God’s way of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
EVERYONE HAS SINNED AND EVERYONE NEEDS JESUS…Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
JESUS IS THE ONLY SAVIOR…John 1:29 Behold, the Lamb of God (Jesus), which taketh away the sin of the world. Mark 10:45 (Jesus came) to give his life a ransom for many. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
JESUS PAID FOR ALL OUR SINS ON THE CROSS AND WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD…1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
SIMPLY BELIEVE ON JESUS AND ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN IS PROMISED AND GUARANTEED…John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Acts 16:30-31 Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved-John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Rom. 8: 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come.39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[St_Worm2]

Is he still one of the Elect? Was he ever one of the Elect? Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

I'm a big fan of Dr. White's debates. Massive intellect and all round great guy. I just don't hold to his Faith alone/pre-destinational beliefs...

Hello S.ilvio, I'm sorry to do this, but I think it would be helpful for me to ask you a question or two before answering your questions. Hopefully this will help me better understand what you understand. I'll start with this one.

If Jesus' death does not atone for ~all~ of the sins believers commit, past, present and future, what does?​

Thanks!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello again @S.ilvio, here are a few more questions that I hope will be helpful (for extra credit, of course ).

As per your understanding of the Biblical term "elect", what does it mean to be elect of God? And who are His elect?

When do you believe that God elects the elect?

Finally, when do you believe that God first chose to love us (as individuals), those of us who already are, as well those of us who will be, His own children .. John 1:12-13?

Thanks!

--David

 

[S.ilvio]

Guys.

My quesitons still stand...

 

[A_Thinker]

Well, this is what I believe in...

HOMEMADE GOSPEL TRACT (COPY, PRINT AND SHARE THEM) (sincitypreacher)
DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN? ...IF SO, WHY?
SALVATION IS NOT EARNED THROUGH PERSONAL MERIT BUT IS A FREE GIFT FROM JESUS…Rom_10:3 For they don’t understand that Christ has died to make them right with God. Instead they are trying to make themselves good enough to gain God’s favor by keeping the laws and customs, but that is not God’s way of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
EVERYONE HAS SINNED AND EVERYONE NEEDS JESUS…Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
JESUS IS THE ONLY SAVIOR…John 1:29 Behold, the Lamb of God (Jesus), which taketh away the sin of the world. Mark 10:45 (Jesus came) to give his life a ransom for many. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
JESUS PAID FOR ALL OUR SINS ON THE CROSS AND WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD…1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
SIMPLY BELIEVE ON JESUS AND ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN IS PROMISED AND GUARANTEED…John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Acts 16:30-31 Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved-John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Rom. 8: 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come.39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I like it ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Is he still one of the Elect? Was he ever one of the Elect? Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

I'm a big fan of Dr. White's debates. Massive intellect and all round great guy. I just don't hold to his Faith alone/pre-destinational beliefs...

For an answer, let's go to the Bible ...

We know that David was/is one of the elect. The scriptures describe him as a man after God's own heart.

Yet, he allowed sin to work in his life, ... such that he committed murder against a man whose wife he had taken.

It strikes me that God sent Nathan to David (to evoke repentance). In so doing, God continued to treat David as a son, ... though that son had horribly violated His law and so, was estranged from Him for a time.

 

[A_Thinker]

Is he still one of the Elect? Was he ever one of the Elect? Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

I'm a big fan of Dr. White's debates. Massive intellect and all round great guy. I just don't hold to his Faith alone/pre-destinational beliefs...

Another Biblical consideration ...

As believers, we are blessed to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

As believers, we are warned not to GRIEVE the Holy Spirit which is within us. We, however, are not warned that such grievous behavior might cause the Spirit to depart from us (I think).

Now, none of that means that we are FREE ... to do what we will, despite our sonship in God. I would venture that God is a good Father, and One who chastens His sons when necessary. I had a good earthly father, ... and was so chastened abundantly. To live amorally as a child of God would be no picnic. David suffered mightily (in his flesh) for his sins. I have a younger brother who eventually ended up with a broken pelvis from a car accident (resulting in physical trauma which continues to this day) ... as God was striving to bring his life into compliance with His will. Happily, he is a most thankful son of God today.

As I reflect upon my own upbringing, I affirm that the following was written to believers ...

Hebrews 10

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Hammster]

Is he still one of the Elect? Was he ever one of the Elect? Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

I'm a big fan of Dr. White's debates. Massive intellect and all round great guy. I just don't hold to his Faith alone/pre-destinational beliefs...

What are the details of this murder?

 

[Silverback]

For an answer, let's go to the Bible ...

We know that David was/is one of the elect. The scriptures describe him as a man after God's own heart.

Yet, he allowed sin to work in his life, ... such that he committed murder against a man whose wife he had taken.

It strikes me that God sent Nathan to David (to evoke repentance). In so doing, God continued to treat David as a son, ... though that son had horribly violated His law and so, was estranged from Him for a time.

Moses was also a murderer, and Paul participated in a common conspiracy with leading Jewish Officials to stamp out Christianity, and was complicit in the murder of Steven.

Moses, Paul, and David...three heavy hitters if you ask me.

 

[Dave L]

Is he still one of the Elect? Was he ever one of the Elect? Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

I'm a big fan of Dr. White's debates. Massive intellect and all round great guy. I just don't hold to his Faith alone/pre-destinational beliefs...

What many do not grasp is the miraculous change in nature that takes place in salvation. God takes unbelieving unrepentant sinners and turns them into a new creation who then by nature love him, believe and repent.

““Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB95)

So;

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” Matthew 7:18 (KJV 1900)


Free will has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever.

 

[S.ilvio]

What are the details of this murder?

Taking the life if another with criminal intent...

 

[Hammster]

Taking the life if another with criminal intent...

Premeditated, or heat of the moment?

 

[S.ilvio]

Premeditated, or heat of the moment?

Criminal intent. Murder.

My questions still stand unanswered.

 

[St_Worm2]

Guys.My quesitons still stand...

As do mine ..

Is he still one of the Elect?

If Dr. White is part of the elect of God and he commits murder, yes, he is still part of the elect.

Was he ever one of the Elect

Nothing that we 'do', murder included, has anything to do with God's choice to number us among the elect .. cf Romans 9:11-16. How could it .. e.g. Ephesians 1:4-6?

Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

Yes, Jesus died for all of the sins of all of His elect, past, present and future. By what other means can any sin be atoned for and forgiven? Does the Roman Catholic church teach that forgiveness from our sins (either in part or in whole) can be found outside of Christ, through another person, or by some other means perhaps?

Thanks!

--David

2 Corinthians 5
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
.​

 

[Hammster]

Criminal intent. Murder.

My questions still stand unanswered.

I’d say, then, that he was never saved.

 

[redleghunter]

Is he still one of the Elect? Was he ever one of the Elect? Or did Jesus die for that sin he will commit because he is one of the Elect?

I'm a big fan of Dr. White's debates. Massive intellect and all round great guy. I just don't hold to his Faith alone/pre-destinational beliefs...

Given the demeanor of Dr. White, what exactly in your hypothetical would drive him to murder? It's your hypothetical so perhaps a bit more information. Thanks.

Edit: Would a valid question be to a Roman Catholic, if the Pope murdered someone in cold blood is he still the Pope?

 

[S.ilvio]

As do mine ..

If Dr. White is part of the elect of God and he commits murder, yes, he is still part of the elect.
Nothing that we 'do', murder included, has anything to do with God's choice to number us among the elect .. cf Romans 9:11-16. How could it .. e.g. Ephesians 1:4-6?

Yes, Jesus died for all of the sins of all of His elect, past, present and future. By what other means can any sin be atoned for and forgiven? Does the Roman Catholic church teach that forgiveness from our sins (either in part or in whole) can be found outside of Christ, through another person, or by some other means perhaps?

Thanks!

--David

2 Corinthians 5
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
.​

Last time I checked this thread was called ask a Calvinist. So the burden to answer questions rests with you. While I am happy to provide relevant clarifications.

So. In the Calvinist view, Dr. White, as a member of the elect, can carry out any atrocity he so wishes. God is blind to his acts or it doesn't matter to God. In your view he is guaranteed Salvation no matter what.

Correct ?

 

[S.ilvio]

I’d say, then, that he was never saved.

The Calvinist get out claus.

 

[S.ilvio]

Given the demeanor of Dr. White, what exactly in your hypothetical would drive him to murder? It's your hypothetical so perhaps a bit more information. Thanks.

Edit: Would a valid question be to a Roman Catholic, if the Pope murdered someone in cold blood is he still the Pope?

This is your time for questioning my friend.

I stand by my original scenario. Murder. Criminal intent.