LDS If it is directly from God, he would have good Grammar!!!

[mmksparbud]

Not to mention Opera stars who all memorize entire operas, and in a foreign language.

 

[He is the way]

Yeah, because nobody can ever have memorized anything. Anyone who's ever recited anything word for word had to either have a book with it in front of them or some magic 'seer stones' and a hat.

Meanwhile, back in reality, Cantor Gad Lewis -- who is blind -- recites everything from memory, including texts which are longer than the Isaiah portion you've highlighted, such as Psalm 151 (a Psalm found in the LXX, but not the Masoretic text):



And, y'know, leads the choir in entire services like the midnight praises (hours of Psalms, canticles, and other prayers, again obviously all from memory):


I don't think it's a miracle that this happens, by the way. People can memorize quite a lot when they come from cultures where it is valued that they do so (as has been the case for most of human history), or if they have other motivations for doing so (personal piety, etc.) -- all without the aid of magic spectacles, rocks, or hats. This particular cantor is far from the only person to have shown such skill despite his inability to read. The greatest Coptic cantor of modern times, Mikhail Girgis El Batanouny (1873-1957), was also blind, and trained many generations of cantors in the traditional melodies of Coptic chant, either personally or through the treasury of recordings that was left to the Library of Congress upon his passing.

Given examples such as these, it's basically impossible for me to see Joseph Smith's insertion of portions of Isaiah into his own book as any kind of miracle or confirmation of some supposed truth found in the BOM. It's nothing of the kind.



These are all your opinions as a Mormon, and exactly the opinions we would expect you to have. That's okay. I just don't agree with any of them and find them to be wrong, as Christ's incarnation, life, preaching, death, and resurrection are not things to be 'shared' with weak replacement religions borne of the fever dreams or machinations of self-proclaimed prophets who bring forth other gospels which they seek to entice Christians to follow other gods of the false prophets' making, as is definitely the case with Mormonism, and will always be the case no matter how much you repeat "Jesus Christ", "Love", "God", "Bible", etc. These are not magic words that you can just say and we will fall all over ourselves to follow Joseph Smith as surely as he followed the angels he imagined himself to have received revelation from. Thankfully we do not live in as religiously and culturally isolated a time as Joseph Smith and those around him did. We can and ought to compare what we he brought to what we have been given by our mothers and fathers in the faith, and when that is done, 100% of the time the spiritually, Biblically, historically, patristically, and prayerfully well-rooted Christian of every particular type finds much at variance with our religion in the message of Joseph Smith and the other Mormon leaders, and it is not due to any failing on the part of any of these diverse sources. It is because at its root Joseph Smith's message and hence his religion comes from some place other than the revelation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the One God we bow down to in worship. It is Joseph's private revelation from some beings he claimed were "God the Father and Jesus" (at least in some versions of his story), which he submitted to no established church of any kind (in contradiction of the example of St. Paul, who went to meet the disciples, as recorded in Acts 21), and on the word of that supposed vision he established his own 'church' by which his doctrine -- not the doctrine of Christianity -- would be preached in lieu of the faith delivered once for all to the saints.

There's nothing for the Christian to rejoice in in that. It's really quite a tragedy, when we consider the ~16 million who are on the rolls of the LDS religion who have been lied to regarding exactly what kind of organization they are involved in. They are told it is not only a church when it isn't that, but even that it is the Church established by Jesus Christ, when it clearly isn't that either. Lord have mercy.

Someone pointed out that there are 3,000 verses in the Book of Mormon that are from the Bible. Most people would have a hard time memorizing 100 verses from the Bible nevermind puting them into their appropriate context. I believe that the Book of Mormon is indeed a miracle from God

 

[dzheremi]

Someone pointed out that there are 3,000 verses in the Book of Mormon that are from the Bible. Most people would have a hard time memorizing 100 verses from the Bible nevermind puting them into their appropriate context. I believe that the Book of Mormon is indeed a miracle from God

And this robotic repetition of empty phrases will play great at your next testimony meeting, but not here, where if you're going to claim that the BOM is a miracle you'll actually need to show how it could not have come about by normal means. And you won't be able to show that, because there's no reason to believe that if you haven't already had your brain washed by the Mormon propaganda machine.

If you think that your own founding prophet is so stupid that he could not remember verses from the Bible to fill his own book with, then that sounds like an issue for you and your prophet, not something that anyone else should worry themselves with one way or another.

By the way, people who can still think would be right to point out, as some have, that the presence of Bible passages in the BOM is actually a major strike against its supposed 'miraculous' origins, as it preserves variations of Bible verses unique to the 1769 version that Smith owned, showing that its ultimate source is not only NOT God (unless you think God personally authored this specific version of the KJV...), but is so unique as to be traced to one particular version of the Bible. Which was owned by people. People in the real world. It didn't drop out of the sky, and it wasn't brought to JS by a Native American angel, and yet there it is in the BOM as though it's some kind of revelation, and not just cribbed from exactly the source you'd expect if JS was actually relying on preexisting sources (whether or not he had the actual book in front of him is entirely immaterial; all he'd have to do is know it, which you know he clearly did if you read any of the recollections of his life given by those who knew him).

As shown in my earlier post and the subsequent post by mmksparbud about opera singers, having a good memory is not a miracle.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Someone pointed out that there are 3,000 verses in the Book of Mormon that are from the Bible. Most people would have a hard time memorizing 100 verses from the Bible nevermind puting them into their appropriate context. I believe that the Book of Mormon is indeed a miracle from God

Those BOM texts even contain words in italics which are not part of the manuscripts. Those words were added to aid in understanding.

The fact those words are there proves JS copied from the KJV and is not a revelation from God.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have asked them to look up what savants can do---memorize whole phone books for one thing!! He had written 3 books by the time he was 38---I lost count how m any EGW had written by that age.---not to mention periodical's. She far out did him with a 3rd grade education. He s by no means---the only one. He writings are far beyond what JS did. And they are not written in the kings English nor simplistic as are JS writings. Actors routinely memorize entire scripts, some memorize not only their lines, but everyone else's also! And that includes where they are to stand at each of their lines, and everyone else's also! Memorizing whole books of the bible was done routinely by most Jews---Entire books, and not short ones either---thoise they would do 2-3 at a time!

 

[He is the way]

Those BOM texts even contain words in italics which are not part of the manuscripts. Those words were added to aid in understanding.

The fact those words are there proves JS copied from the KJV and is not a revelation from God.

Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon without punctuation, it was added later.

 

[He is the way]

And this robotic repetition of empty phrases will play great at your next testimony meeting, but not here, where if you're going to claim that the BOM is a miracle you'll actually need to show how it could not have come about by normal means. And you won't be able to show that, because there's no reason to believe that if you haven't already had your brain washed by the Mormon propaganda machine.

If you think that your own founding prophet is so stupid that he could not remember verses from the Bible to fill his own book with, then that sounds like an issue for you and your prophet, not something that anyone else should worry themselves with one way or another.

By the way, people who can still think would be right to point out, as some have, that the presence of Bible passages in the BOM is actually a major strike against its supposed 'miraculous' origins, as it preserves variations of Bible verses unique to the 1769 version that Smith owned, showing that its ultimate source is not only NOT God (unless you think God personally authored this specific version of the KJV...), but is so unique as to be traced to one particular version of the Bible. Which was owned by people. People in the real world. It didn't drop out of the sky, and it wasn't brought to JS by a Native American angel, and yet there it is in the BOM as though it's some kind of revelation, and not just cribbed from exactly the source you'd expect if JS was actually relying on preexisting sources (whether or not he had the actual book in front of him is entirely immaterial; all he'd have to do is know it, which you know he clearly did if you read any of the recollections of his life given by those who knew him).

As shown in my earlier post and the subsequent post by mmksparbud about opera singers, having a good memory is not a miracle.

The Book of Mormon is indeed a miracle and Isaiah prophesied of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. It certainly did NOT come from Joseph Smith's imagination.

 

[He is the way]

I have asked them to look up what savants can do---memorize whole phone books for one thing!! He had written 3 books by the time he was 38---I lost count how m any EGW had written by that age.---not to mention periodical's. She far out did him with a 3rd grade education. He s by no means---the only one. He writings are far beyond what JS did. And they are not written in the kings English nor simplistic as are JS writings. Actors routinely memorize entire scripts, some memorize not only their lines, but everyone else's also! And that includes where they are to stand at each of their lines, and everyone else's also! Memorizing whole books of the bible was done routinely by most Jews---Entire books, and not short ones either---thoise they would do 2-3 at a time!

Yes Ellen White did write many books, she is also accused of plagiarism:

Ellen G. White found guilty of plagiarism (copying)

 

[Ran77]

What a surprise. Nothing of substance, but plenty of unearned sanctimony. What is this kind of reply? "I'm morally superior to you because you hurt my feelings"?

Lame. Totally lame.

Personal attacks do not contain substance. Which places this comment firmly into the camp of a double standard.

But pointing out personal attacks does bring attention to the fact that "nothing of substance" has been offered instead of something of value. And the more personal attacks a post has, the less focus is being placed on the topic. I often find that means my opposition has little to offer that has any substance. Otherwise, they would go straight for any easily identifiable flaws they might find with my arguments.

If you would like to think that you have hurt my feelings . . . be my guest. Those of you with an open mind might notice that I'm not actually bothered by the comments. But let's just keep it as our little secret.

 

[Ran77]

You're basically telling me how I can post with all of your "Putting words in other people's mouths" accusations, which are wrong anyway.

I'm noticing that you failed to provide any evidence that I did what you claimed.

Now, I would like to see where I told you how you can post. This seems to be another baseless accusation.

If you want to sit here and quibble over what exactly to call that, go ahead. I'm fine with "telling me my business".

I'm actually interested in having you back up your claims. Which isn't happening.

The Holy Spirit is God, the Giver of Life. The Holy Spirit does not testify to Mormonism, which is a false religion, and like all false religions ultimately rooted in the worship of something other than God.

Here's the great thing about being able to go straight to God for answers, I don't have to take your word for it. What you have offered is an opinion. The opinion of a fallible, mortal man. The Bible is clear that we are not to put our faith in the arm of man, but in Him.

What I find so incredibly interesting is the level of opposition that some Christians have with advising people to pray to God for truth. That contradicts the verses I have quoted in this thread. It contradicts the overall message of the Bible. I have to wonder why anyone would have a problem with sincere prayer.

This entire bizarre 'I feel like I am being sincere, so everything is fine' idea is profoundly spiritually lazy and indifferent to the truth. Lord have mercy. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..."

This isn't part of any of my comments. Or my thoughts. And if you are going to use a quote, it's proper to cite the source. Otherwise, the quote is mostly meaningless. I didn't state either of these. So what does it have to do with my view on this topic?

 

[Ran77]

These are all nice-sounding words, but they don't mean anything if they cannot resolve the inherent conflict involved in the radical subjectivity of the Mormon approach.

Just so everyone at home can follow along, what I have offered is that God is the source of truth and we can pray to Him for answers. That is my approach. It is the approach of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. You have called that a radical subjectivity approach. Or to be super clear, prayer is a radical subjectivity approach. As in ". . . the radical subjectivity of the pray to God approach." (Notice how I substituted the word Mormon for the actual approach that both I and the church advocate.)

Wow.

I think that says it all.

Again, if there is only ONE God, then either He is deceiving some by telling them NOT to be come Mormon, or He's deceiving some by telling them TO become Mormon. You can't have it both ways. And God does not lead people to falsehood. So someone is obviously following someone/something else, while believing that they are following God.

This tactic always gives me a chuckle. The Either - OR argument. In order for this to have any validity at all, you would have to buy into the belief that there are only two possible explanations available. It has to be this scenario that the person made up or it has to be the other scenario the person made up and no other explanations can ever be possible beyond those two. Then, of course, we have to believe that the person making such a blatantly simplistic black and white comparison has accurately identified the two possibilities and presented them in an unbiased manner.

This specific Either/Or argument just happens to leave out any possibility of human error in the equation. I would think that the fallibility of mortals would be a reasonable explanation for at least one of the two, and only two, possibilities for the scenario you described. I have a hard time of taking your statement seriously if it can't encompass human error as at least one of the possibilities in any problem that exists.

In other words, this is a flawed argument.

 

[Ran77]

No one claims the Bible was translated using a seer stone where God gave a translation of Bible Manuscripts. It was translated by well educated humans. Modern Translations have expert editors.

Forgive me for not understanding, but how does that affect my statement?

 

[Ran77]

Asking for wisdom is not getting a testimony that a book is true.

Is it your view that asking for wisdom is not asking for truth or answers?

Perhaps you can explain to me what the verse means. What wisdom actually represents.