LDS If it is directly from God, he would have good Grammar!!!

dzheremi

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There was a pre-existence of matter otherwise there would be NO God or universe. God formed the universe out of matter that existed:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:18)

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

God is NOT nothing.

Nobody in the scriptures or on this subforum has said God is nothing, so that's a non-sequitur. The scriptures do tell us, however, that God did create ex nihilo, as in 2 Maccabees 7:28 (which is included in the OT canon of Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics, but not included by most Protestants since it is not among the Hebrew works of the OT; it was probably originally composed in Greek, and is found in the LXX):

I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.​


Baptism for the dead did NOT find it's roots in gnostic heretics.

It is not known to have existed in the history of Christianity outside of such groups. Unless you know something I don't, there's no reason to include it among those things that were anciently practiced by the Church but were forgotten or lost later. I mean, the entire reason I can reference St. John Chrysostom's homily that mentions them is because we have it, so we know the attitude of the Church going back at least that far, and you have nothing of similar antiquity that suggests that Christians ever failed to account for doctrinal differences between them and the gnostics, as well as differences in praxis. Before St. John, St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215) did a lot of work in distinguishing between the various gospels that circulated in Egypt in his time by sorting out which originated from the gnostics and which didn't, and Tertullian (155 - c.240) mentioned in one of his writings (not sure which one; my source on this is an episode of Fr. Andrew S. Damick's Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio, as Tertullian's writings must be handled with care, since he eventually left Christianity for Montanism) that the gnostics in a given congregation could be distinguished from the believers by how they refused to take the Eucharist.

So given that these differences were observed at such early dates it is incredibly unlikely that the Church Fathers and others would've misidentified a practice that they should have kept as originating from the gnostics if it was actually originally an accepted practice within the Church.

Baptism itself is a ordinance from God.

Baptism, yes; baptism for the dead, no.
 
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He is the way

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Nobody in the scriptures or on this subforum has said God is nothing, so that's a non-sequitur. The scriptures do tell us, however, that God did create ex nihilo, as in 2 Maccabees 7:28 (which is included in the OT canon of Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics, but not included by most Protestants since it is not among the Hebrew works of the OT; it was probably originally composed in Greek, and is found in the LXX):

I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.​




It is not known to have existed in the history of Christianity outside of such groups. Unless you know something I don't, there's no reason to include it among those things that were anciently practiced by the Church but were forgotten or lost later. I mean, the entire reason I can reference St. John Chrysostom's homily that mentions them is because we have it, so we know the attitude of the Church going back at least that far, and you have nothing of similar antiquity that suggests that Christians ever failed to account for doctrinal differences between them and the gnostics, as well as differences in praxis. Before St. John, St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215) did a lot of work in distinguishing between the various gospels that circulated in Egypt in his time by sorting out which originated from the gnostics and which didn't, and Tertullian (155 - c.240) mentioned in one of his writings (not sure which one; my source on this is an episode of Fr. Andrew S. Damick's Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio, as Tertullian's writings must be handled with care, since he eventually left Christianity for Montanism) that the gnostics in a given congregation could be distinguished from the believers by how they refused to take the Eucharist.

So given that these differences were observed at such early dates it is incredibly unlikely that the Church Fathers and others would've misidentified a practice that they should have kept as originating from the gnostics if it was actually originally an accepted practice within the Church.



Baptism, yes; baptism for the dead, no.
Did you not know that "ex nihilo" is NOT in 2 Maccabees 7:28?

2 Maccabees 7:28
Revised Standard Version

28 I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.

Materials to make an F-16 did not exist either, metals had to be refined, glass had to be molten. Not a single part of an F-16 was found in nature they all had to be made. All the parts of man did not exist in nature either, God made them out of the dust and water of the earth. God did not make man out of nothing. Your conclusion is wrong.

After the temple was destroyed no more baptisms for the dead could be performed. Animal sacrifices in the temple were also discontinued.
 
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dzheremi

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Hahaha. Whatever. That's the dumbest example ever. The verse literally says God did not make them out of things that existed, establishing that God's creating is not dependent on the preexistence of matter. It's obviously not naming individual specific building materials because -- newsflash -- the verse is not about building a fighter jet.
 
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He is the way

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Hahaha. Whatever. That's the dumbest example ever. The verse literally says God did not make them out of things that existed, establishing that God's creating is not dependent on the preexistence of matter. It's obviously not naming individual specific building materials because -- newsflash -- the verse is not about building a fighter jet.
The verse did not say matter was non-existent. And as I said God did not make man out of nothing. Nor did God make man out the things (muscles, bones, eyes, hair and etc.) that already existed. But He made those parts out of matter (the dust of the earth) that already existed. Actually an F-16 is much less complex than plants, animals, birds, reptiles, fishes, and man. God formed the earth and worlds also:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:18)

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
 
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Ran77

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Can you also not read?

Personal attack. That's 1 point for me.


Is this a problem with Mormons more generally, or just Mormons who post here on CF?

Another personal attack. That's a second point for me.


Follow along, please:

Condescending comment. No points, but such a heavy reliance on negative rhetoric rather than arguments of substance convinces me that there will be little of value in the rest of the post.

To anyone else, I am open to discussion of topics - not people. Why don't we see if we can have a dialogue from which both sides will benefit. In other words, a positive discussion/debate that sets the environment for learning.
 
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Ran77

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In no place does it ever say to pray about the pseudoepigraphical books of later religions that would come with the purpose of replacing Christianity . . .

That would be silly to list every single preposterous thing that a person might think to pray about, or offer as an argument. Instead, the Bible wisely states that if we lack wisdom. Which would cover pseudoepigraphical books as well as any topic which a person might truly need help in finding the truth.


. . . but it does warn us about the coming of those who would preach them and their corrupting messages, as in Matthew 24:24 -- For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

As I pointed out above, if we lack wisdom, on any topic, we can seek answers in prayer. That includes the search for the ability to discern the word of God from false Christs and false prophets. Which I have already suggested. I heartily recommend that all people pray for the Lord to reveal knowledge to those who seek it.
 
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Ran77

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I don't see why. You just told me my business several times in your reply without apparently knowing any better, and yet you apparently think you are offering plenty of sound arguments. Physician, heal thyself?

Which comment did I make that told someone else what they thought or what they believed?


So whose God or Spirit or whatever is telling the truth: mine or yours? And how do you know? Do you suggest 'dueling prayers' for that, too? How does it ever end?

For those following this discussion, allow me to point out what I have presented is that all mankind has the ability to seek truth through prayers. And if a person has a sincere desire to know the truth, then this the one and only way to be sure that the answer you receive is pure, undiluted, and unfiltered by mortal man.

All of us will, one day, stand before God. And He will judge us. None of us will be able to claim that we did what we did because dzheremi, or Ran77, or anyone else told us we should. Well, we can claim that, but it won't pull any weight with the Big Man Upstairs. That's why we have prayer and the Holy Spirit. We are accountable for our actions because we can receive guidance from God without the need of mortal intermediaries.

I haven't suggested dueling prayers. I have only suggested that there is only one source of truth for all of us. And that is accessible through personal prayer. I have advocated that everyone seek answers from God. There is no conflict, no duel, in a prayer to our Heavenly Father. There is only peace and . . . the truth.


And again: when I pray and you and pray (or any other combination of people pray), and we don't all receive the same answer, who got the 'right' answer and how does anyone know that?

The Holy Spirit is our witness. Through him, we may know that God has answered our prayer(s). It may take some practice to listen for that witness, but it is available to all.

To those sincerely interested in the answer to this, we only have control over ourselves. We can know if our prayers were sincere. We can know if we strived to listen for an answer. And most importantly, we can know if the Holy Spirit witnessed to the truth of that answer. That is within the scope of our ability. What we cannot do is know about the answer someone else has received.

My concern is with the answer I receive. (Of course, I am also concerned about the answers my family receives or don't receive.) Anyone reading my post should be concerned with the answer they receive. If the Spirit confirms the truth of that answer, then cleave unto that truth. Even if it doesn't match my answer, my advice is to embrace the answer you receive. Let God guide you and you'll be fine.
 
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dzheremi

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Personal attack. That's 1 point for me.




Another personal attack. That's a second point for me.




Condescending comment. No points, but such a heavy reliance on negative rhetoric rather than arguments of substance convinces me that there will be little of value in the rest of the post.

To anyone else, I am open to discussion of topics - not people. Why don't we see if we can have a dialogue from which both sides will benefit. In other words, a positive discussion/debate that sets the environment for learning.

What a surprise. Nothing of substance, but plenty of unearned sanctimony. What is this kind of reply? "I'm morally superior to you because you hurt my feelings"?

Lame. Totally lame.
 
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dzheremi

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Which comment did I make that told someone else what they thought or what they believed?

You're basically telling me how I can post with all of your "Putting words in other people's mouths" accusations, which are wrong anyway.

If you want to sit here and quibble over what exactly to call that, go ahead. I'm fine with "telling me my business".

For those following this discussion, allow me to point out what I have presented is that all mankind has the ability to seek truth through prayers. And if a person has a sincere desire to know the truth, then this the one and only way to be sure that the answer you receive is pure, undiluted, and unfiltered by mortal man.

Yeah, because nobody ever thinks that they hear God and are wrong, are they?

That's why you believe that Muhammad is a true prophet of God, and follow the holy book he says he received? Right?

Or you follow Baha'ullah, and follow the holy book that he says he received?

Or you follow Chris Nemelka, since he's claimed to translate the sealed portion of the BOM, with the help of 'god' of course.

(etc., etc.)

All of us will, one day, stand before God. And He will judge us. None of us will be able to claim that we did what we did because dzheremi, or Ran77, or anyone else told us we should. Well, we can claim that, but it won't pull any weight with the Big Man Upstairs. That's why we have prayer and the Holy Spirit. We are accountable for our actions because we can receive guidance from God without the need of mortal intermediaries.

Non-sequitur. No one here ever suggested that it is otherwise.

I haven't suggested dueling prayers. I have only suggested that there is only one source of truth for all of us. And that is accessible through personal prayer. I have advocated that everyone seek answers from God. There is no conflict, no duel, in a prayer to our Heavenly Father. There is only peace and . . . the truth.

These are all nice-sounding words, but they don't mean anything if they cannot resolve the inherent conflict involved in the radical subjectivity of the Mormon approach.

Again, if there is only ONE God, then either He is deceiving some by telling them NOT to be come Mormon, or He's deceiving some by telling them TO become Mormon. You can't have it both ways. And God does not lead people to falsehood. So someone is obviously following someone/something else, while believing that they are following God.

The Holy Spirit is our witness. Through him, we may know that God has answered our prayer(s). It may take some practice to listen for that witness, but it is available to all.

The Holy Spirit is God, the Giver of Life. The Holy Spirit does not testify to Mormonism, which is a false religion, and like all false religions ultimately rooted in the worship of something other than God.

This entire bizarre 'I feel like I am being sincere, so everything is fine' idea is profoundly spiritually lazy and indifferent to the truth. Lord have mercy. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..."
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Is the Bible perfect? The Book of Mormon does not claim to be perfect:

(Book of Mormon | Preface Title Page:1 - 2)

1 Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.
2 An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment–seat of Christ.

Neither is the Bible perfect.

Hi Friend, am I mistaken that JS looked at a seer stone in his hat and God somehow displayed the words to be read and write down? Is not God Perfect and All Knowing?
If so, one would expect good grammar. Since, we do not have the gold plates any claim about them is just a good guess. One can make an abridgment using good grammar in one's own language. One doing a translation has a goal of using good understandable translation.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Joseph Smith did not say the Book of Mormon was perfect, he said most correct, and it is. A person can get closer to God by living the precepts found in the Book of Mormon than in any other book. Many times I have tried to present precepts using only the Bible only to find the Bible lacking the in some important concepts causing people to misunderstand God's precepts.

Definition of correct (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb

1a: to make or set right : AMEND
correct an error
The editor corrected the author's manuscript.

b: COUNTERACT, NEUTRALIZE
correct a harmful tendency
c: to alter or adjust so as to bring to some standard or required condition
correct a lens for spherical aberration
She's having surgery to correct her vision.
2a: to discipline or punish (someone) for some fault or lapse
… I was most rude then. Only a small boy, Sir, and I was corrected for it, I assure you, by my father …
— Rex Ingamells
b: to point out usually for amendment the errors or faults of
spent the day correcting tests
correct adjective
Definition of correct (Entry 2 of 2)
1: conforming to an approved or conventional standard
correct behavior
2: conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth
a correct response
3: conforming to a set figure
enclosed the correct return postage
4: conforming to the strict requirements of a specific ideology or set of beliefs or values
environmentally correct
spiritually correct

Definition of CORRECT

Synonyms & Antonyms of correct (Entry 1 of 2)
1being in agreement with the truth or a fact or a standard
a real brainteaser with only one correct solution to it
Synonyms for correct

accurate, bang on [chiefly British], dead-on, exact, good, on-target, precise, proper, right, so, spot-on, true, veracious
Words Related to correct

legitimate, logical, sound, valid
errorless, faultless, flawless, impeccable, inerrant, infallible, letter-perfect, perfect
rigorous, strict, stringent

Phrases Synonymous with correct

on target, on the money
Near Antonyms for correct

defective, faulty, flawed, imperfect
Antonyms for correct

false, improper, inaccurate, incorrect, inexact, off, untrue, wrong
2following the established traditions of refined society and good taste
painfully correct dress for the state dinner at the White House
Synonyms for correct

befitting, de rigueur, decent, decorous, genteel, nice, polite, proper, respectable, seemly
Words Related to correct

acceptable, adequate, satisfactory, tolerable
dress, dressy, formal
dignified, elegant, gracious
priggish, prim, stiff, stuffy
apt, material, relevant
compatible, congenial, harmonious
allowed, authorized, kosher, permitted
Near Antonyms for correct

intolerable, unacceptable, unsatisfactory
casual, grungy, informal
seedy, shabby, tacky
banned, barred, disallowed
forbidden, interdicted, outlawed, prohibited, proscribed
awkward, gauche, ungraceful
Antonyms for correct

improper, inappropriate, incorrect, indecent, indecorous, indelicate, unbecoming, ungenteel, unseemly
3marked by or showing careful attention to set forms and details
the correct method for folding the American flag
Synonyms for correct

ceremonious, decorous, formal, nice, proper, punctilious, starchy, stiff, stiff-necked, stilted
Words Related to correct

sober, solemn, stately
chivalrous, courtly, gallant
genteel, polished, refined
civil, courteous, polite, red-carpet
Near Antonyms for correct

improper, indecorous, unmannerly
discourteous, impolite, rude
Antonyms for correct

casual, easygoing, informal, laid-back, unceremonious
correct verb
Synonyms & Antonyms of correct (Entry 2 of 2)
1to remove errors, defects, deficiencies, or deviations from
more time will be needed to correct the computer program
Synonyms for correct

amend, debug, emend, rectify, red-pencil, reform, remedy
Words Related to correct

redraft, redraw, restyle, revise, rework, rewrite
blue-pencil, cut, shorten
redress, right
ameliorate, better, improve
perfect, polish, touch up
fix, mend, repair
adjust, modulate, regulate
alter, change, modify
Near Antonyms for correct

damage, harm, hurt, impair, injure, mar, spoil
aggravate, worsen
2to balance with an equal force so as to make ineffective
hopefully the young entrepreneur's professionalism will serve to correct his partner's extreme enthusiasm in the eyes of investors
Synonyms for correct

annul, cancel (out), compensate (for), counteract, counterbalance, counterpoise, make up (for), negative, neutralize, offset
Words Related to correct

invalidate, negate, neuter, nullify
atone (for)
outbalance, outweigh, redeem
redress, relieve, remedy
override, overrule
3to inflict a penalty on for a fault or crime
an insensitive boss who liked to correct subordinates in front of their colleagues
Synonyms for correct

castigate, chasten, chastise, discipline, penalize, punish
Words Related to correct

assess, charge, dock, fine, impose, levy, mulct
convict, sentence
condemn, damn, denounce
criticize, keelhaul, rebuke, reprimand, reprove
wreak
Near Antonyms for correct

forfeit
get off, ransom, release
commute, reprieve
absolve, acquit, exculpate, exonerate, vindicate
Antonyms for correct

excuse, pardon, spare
See the Dictionary Definition
Frequently Asked Questions About correct
How is the word correct different from other adjectives like it?
Some common synonyms of correct are accurate, exact, nice, precise, and right. While all these words mean "conforming to fact, standard, or truth," correct usually implies freedom from fault or error.

Thesaurus results for CORRECT
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I just had to say one thing. I do not believe that a message God has given to someone has to be said in perfect grammer. But it most certainly has to be in perfect harmony with the rest of the bible. Moses was highly educated, but God does not always use the highly educated. There are many instances in the bible where scribes were used. Even with spellcheck, I have problemns!I have no objection to them using a scribe---secretary--proof reader---to make the idea presented by God more well said.. And I see no reason why someone today who is not highly educated can not be used by God, simply because his grammer may be less than perfect. I see no reason why a person today can not use a scribe=secretary to write in a more perfect, grammatically correct form. It is the message that is important. The thing is, with the LDS writtings, the messages are not in accordance with the word of God nor share any really lofty, profound messasge that the bible has not already quite succintly stated. JS would have been more believable had he written in the vernacular of the day, using a secretary if needed---than trying to pretend this is the way God spoke to him.

I had to edit this as there were several mistakes!!
Hi Friend, am I mistaken that JS looked at a seer stone in his hat and God somehow displayed the words to be read and write down? Is not God Perfect and All Knowing?
If so, one would expect good grammar. Since, we do not have the gold plates any claim about them is just a good guess. One can make an abridgment using good grammar in one's own language. One doing a translation has a goal of using good understandable translation.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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According to the title of the thread it is about grammar and what comes from God. That opens it up to more than the Book of Mormon. It is a blanket statement which encompasses anything that is presented as the word of God.

If the Book of Mormon is to be judged on this matter, then there needs to be a standard by which it is compared. You can call it deflection if you like. It won't change the truth. "A rose by any other name will smell as sweet."

Your objections make it seem like the Bible might not stand up to scrutiny. That's unfortunate. I have great confidence in the Book of Mormon being the word of God. I invite all people to examine it. To read it. To pray about it.

I also have great confidence in the Bible as well. Which I also invite all people to examine. To read. And to pray about the words in its pages.




Quoting out of context does not make for a reputable argument. That's because the argument is based on a misrepresentation. If the Book of Mormon is false, then there should be plenty of actual evidence to support any such claim. Why then should anyone rely on attacking a straw dog?

Because, as you pointed out, that quote is in reference to the principles it teaches and not the grammatical correctness of the text.




I have zero problems reading and understanding the Book of Mormon. In fact, I find it quite easy to read. What I do have a problem with is blatant exaggerations. A comment that states the Book of Mormon is "nearly unintelligible" or "inscrutable" has employed a grand exaggeration. Even our critics find it clear enough to allow them to attack our beliefs.

If the Book of Mormon has flaws, then there is no need for exaggeration. Or quoting out of context. Or any of the other methods that are used in attempts to prove us wrong. The Book of Mormon stands on its own. I don't need to quote out of context or to use outlandish exaggerations to defend it. All I need to do is provide the facts and allow people to make up their own mind about the evidence. I don't need cheap ploys to sway the people reading my messages.




I have made no such statement. Putting words into my mouth and pretending I said them does not give credibility to your arguments. I let you present your side of the argument and it would be common courtesy for you to do the same.

Why don't we stick to what I actually post. My actual beliefs. Not straw dogs created by others, presumably because they are easier to attack than the truth.




Great question. Thank you for asking.

Anyone looking to find the word of God should believe in the Book of Mormon because God verified the truthfulness of it through the spirit of personal revelation. That's it. That's why.

All of this debate might be fun for some. And it might be educational for others. But the only way to know the truth is to ask God to reveal it to you.

No one claims the Bible was translated using a seer stone where God gave a translation of Bible Manuscripts. It was translated by well educated humans. Modern Translations have expert editors.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You said: "We all saw it several years ago when a different Mormon poster suddenly became enamored with the early Christian apologist St. Justin Martyr for St. Justin's writings in favor of the preexistence of matter, without realizing that this was a holdover from Justin's past as a pagan philosopher, and not something that was accepted by the wider Church in any era. Similar love/hate reactions to other early Christian figures like St. John Chrysostom depended on whether or not the saint was saying something that Mormons could attach to their extremely dim view of the historical Church ("Chrysostom's right: the bishops were out of control!" -- never mind that St. John was himself archbishop of Constantinople!), while rejecting anything he said that contradicted what Mormons assume is among the practices Mormonism 'restored' that had been lost via the great apostasy (as when St. John mocked those who performed 'baptism for the dead', which was known as a practice of gnostic heretics in his time, in the late 4th/early 5th century)"

There was a pre-existence of matter otherwise there would be NO God or universe. God formed the universe out of matter that existed:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:18)

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

God is NOT nothing. Baptism for the dead did NOT find it's roots in gnostic heretics. Baptism itself is a ordinance from God.
Psalm 90
Easy-to-Read Version
Book 4
(Psalms 90-106)
The prayer of Moses, the man of God.
90 My Lord, you have been our home forever and ever.
2 You were God before the mountains were born,
before the earth and the world were made.

You have always been and will always be God!

3 You bring people into this world,
and you change them into dust again.
4 To you, a thousand years is like yesterday,
like a few hours in the night.
5 Our life is like a dream that ends when morning comes.
We are like grass
6 that grows and looks so fresh in the morning,
but in the evening it is dry and dying.
7 Your anger could destroy us.
Your anger frightens us!
8 You know about all our sins.
You see every one of our secret sins.
9 Your anger can end our life.
Our lives fade away like a whisper.
10 We live about 70 years
or, if we are strong, 80 years.
But most of them are filled with hard work and pain.
Then, suddenly, the years are gone, and we fly away.
11 No one really knows the full power of your anger,
but our fear and respect for you is as great as your anger.
12 Teach us how short our lives are
so that we can become wise.
13 Lord, come back to us.
Be kind to your servants.
14 Fill us with your love every morning.
Let us be happy and enjoy our lives.
15 For years you have made life hard for us and have given us many troubles.
Now make us happy for just as long.
16 Let your servants see the wonderful things you can do for them.
And let their children see your glory.
17 Lord, our God, be kind to us.
Make everything we do successful.
Yes, make it all successful.

New International Version
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

New Living Translation
Before the mountains were born, before you gave birth to the earth and the world, from beginning to end, you are God.

English Standard Version
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Berean Study Bible
Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

New American Standard Bible
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

New King James Version
Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

King James Bible
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Christian Standard Bible
Before the mountains were born, before you gave birth to the earth and the world, from eternity to eternity, you are God.

Contemporary English Version
You have always been God--long before the birth of the mountains, even before you created the earth and the world.

Good News Translation
Before you created the hills or brought the world into being, you were eternally God, and will be God forever.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Before the mountains were born, before You gave birth to the earth and the world, from eternity to eternity, You are God.

International Standard Version
Before the mountains were formed or the earth and the world were brought forth, you are God from eternity to eternity.

NET Bible
Even before the mountains came into existence, or you brought the world into being, you were the eternal God.

New Heart English Bible
Before the mountains were brought forth, before you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

A Faithful Version
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Before the Earth would have been brought forth or ever the world would have been acquired, from eternity unto eternity you are God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Before the mountains were born, before you gave birth to the earth and the world, you were God. You are God from everlasting to everlasting.

JPS Tanakh 1917
Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.

New American Standard 1977
Before the mountains were born, Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.

King James 2000 Bible
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

American King James Version
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

American Standard Version
Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and the world were formed, even from age to age, Thou art.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed; from eternity and to eternity thou art God.

Darby Bible Translation
Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God.

English Revised Version
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Webster's Bible Translation
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

World English Bible
Before the mountains were brought forth, before you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

Young's Literal Translation
Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God.

It looks like the things that were created are done by figures of speech.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You said: "We all saw it several years ago when a different Mormon poster suddenly became enamored with the early Christian apologist St. Justin Martyr for St. Justin's writings in favor of the preexistence of matter, without realizing that this was a holdover from Justin's past as a pagan philosopher, and not something that was accepted by the wider Church in any era. Similar love/hate reactions to other early Christian figures like St. John Chrysostom depended on whether or not the saint was saying something that Mormons could attach to their extremely dim view of the historical Church ("Chrysostom's right: the bishops were out of control!" -- never mind that St. John was himself archbishop of Constantinople!), while rejecting anything he said that contradicted what Mormons assume is among the practices Mormonism 'restored' that had been lost via the great apostasy (as when St. John mocked those who performed 'baptism for the dead', which was known as a practice of gnostic heretics in his time, in the late 4th/early 5th century)"

There was a pre-existence of matter otherwise there would be NO God or universe. God formed the universe out of matter that existed:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:18)

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

God is NOT nothing. Baptism for the dead did NOT find it's roots in gnostic heretics. Baptism itself is a ordinance from God.

God Chooses Cyrus to Make Israel Free
45 This is what the Lord said to Cyrus, his chosen king[a]:

“I took you by your right hand to help you defeat nations,
to strip other kings of their power,
and to open city gates that will not be closed again.
2 I will go in front of you
and make the mountains flat.
I will break the city gates of bronze
and cut the iron bars on the gates.
3 I will give you the wealth that is stored in secret places.
I will give you those hidden treasures.
Then you will know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who calls you by name.
4 I do this for my servant, Jacob.
I do it for my chosen people, Israel.
Cyrus, I am calling you by name.
You don’t know me, but I know you.
5 I am the Lord, the only God.
There is no other God except me.
I put your clothes on you,[c]
but still you don’t know me.
6 I am doing this so that everyone will know
that I am the only God.
From the east to the west, people will know that I am the Lord
and that there is no other God.
7 I made the light and the darkness.
I bring peace, and I cause trouble.
I, the Lord, do all these things.

8 “May the clouds in the skies above
pour goodness on the earth like rain.
May the earth open up
to let salvation grow.
And may goodness grow with that salvation,
which I, the Lord, created.

God Controls His Creation
9 “Look at these people! They are arguing with the one who made them. Look at them argue with me. They are like pieces of clay from a broken pot. Clay does not say to the one molding it, ‘Man, what are you doing?’ Things that are made don’t have the power to question the one who makes them. 10 A father gives life to his children, and they cannot ask, ‘Why are you giving me life?’ They cannot question their mother and ask, ‘Why are you giving birth to me?’”

11 The Lord God is the Holy One of Israel. He created Israel, and he says,

“My children, you asked me to show you a sign.
You told me to show you what I have done.[d]
12 I made the earth,
and I created the people on it.
I used my own hands to make the skies.
And I command all the armies in the sky.[e]
13 I was right to give power to Cyrus,[f]
and I will make his work easy.
He will rebuild my city,
and he will set my people free without bribes or payment.”
The Lord All-Powerful said this.

14 The Lord says, “Egypt and Ethiopia are rich,
but, Israel, you will get those riches.
The tall people from Seba will be yours.
They will walk behind you with chains around their necks.
They will bow down before you
and ask you to pray for them and say,
‘The true God really is with you,
and there is no other God.’”

15 You are the God people cannot see.
You are the God who saves Israel.
16 Many people make false gods,
but they will be disappointed.
All of them will go away ashamed.
17 But Israel will be saved by the Lord.
That salvation will continue forever.
Never again will Israel be shamed.
18 The Lord is God.
He made the skies and the earth.
He put the earth in its place.
He did not want the earth to be empty when he made it.
He created it to be lived on.
“I am the Lord.
There is no other God.
19 I have spoken openly, not in secret.
I did not hide my words in a dark and secret place.
I did not tell the people of Jacob
to look for me in empty places.
I am the Lord, and I speak the truth.
I say only what is right.

The Lord Proves He Is the Only God
20 “You people who escaped from other nations, gather together before me. (These people carry statues of false gods. They pray to useless gods, but they don’t know what they are doing. 21 Tell them to come to me. Let them present their case and discuss these things.)

“Who told you about this before it happened? Who told you this so long ago? I, the Lord, am the one who said these things. I am the only God, the one who does what is right. I am the one who saves, and there is no other! 22 So all you people in faraway places, turn to me and be saved, because I am God, and there is no other.

23 “When I make a promise, that promise is true. It will happen. And I swear by my own power that everyone will bow before me and will take an oath to obey me. 24 They will say, ‘Goodness and strength come only from the Lord.’”

And all who show their anger against him will be humiliated. 25 The Lord will help the people of Israel live right[g] and praise their God.

New International Version
For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

New Living Translation
For the LORD is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos. “I am the LORD,” he says, “and there is no other.

English Standard Version
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Berean Study Bible
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens—He is God; He formed the earth and fashioned it; He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

New American Standard Bible
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.

New King James Version
For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

King James Bible
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Christian Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says--the Creator of the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, the one who established it (he did not create it to be a wasteland, but formed it to be inhabited)--he says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Contemporary English Version
The LORD alone is God! He created the heavens and made a world where people can live, instead of creating an empty desert. The LORD alone is God; there are no others.

Good News Translation
The LORD created the heavens--he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth--he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says-- God is the Creator of the heavens. He formed the earth and made it. He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited--" I am Yahweh, and there is no other.

International Standard Version
For this is what the LORD says, who created the heavens— he is God, and the one who formed the earth and made it, and he is the one who established it; he didn't create it for chaos, but formed it to be inhabited— "I am the LORD and there is no other.

NET Bible
For this is what the LORD says, the one who created the sky--he is the true God, the one who formed the earth and made it; he established it, he did not create it without order, he formed it to be inhabited--"I am the LORD, I have no peer.

New Heart English Bible
For thus says the LORD who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and did not create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

A Faithful Version
For thus says the LORD the Creator of the heavens, He Himself is God, Who formed the earth and made it; He has established it. He created it not in vain, but formed it to be inhabited."I am the LORD, and there is no other.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The LORD created the heavens. God formed the earth and made it. He set it up. He did not create it to be empty but formed it to be inhabited. This is what the LORD says: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens, He is God; That formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD, and there is none else.

New American Standard 1977
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

King James 2000 Bible
For thus says the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

American King James Version
For thus said the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

American Standard Version
For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
Thus saith the Lord that made the heaven, this God that created the earth, and made it; he marked it out, he made it not in vain, but formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none beside.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God himself that formed the earth, and made it, the very maker thereof: he did not create it in vain: he formed it to be inhabited. I am the Lord, and there is no other.

Darby Bible Translation
For thus saith Jehovah who created the heavens, God himself who formed the earth and made it, he who established it, -- not as waste did he create it: he formed it to be inhabited: -- I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else.

English Revised Version
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; he established it, he created it not a waste, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Webster's Bible Translation
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

World English Bible
For thus says Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn't create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited: "I am Yahweh; and there is no other.

Young's Literal Translation
For thus said Jehovah, Creator of heaven, He is God, Former of earth, and its Maker, He established it -- not empty He prepared it, For inhabiting He formed it: 'I am Jehovah, and there is none else.
 
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Nobody in the scriptures or on this subforum has said God is nothing, so that's a non-sequitur. The scriptures do tell us, however, that God did create ex nihilo, as in 2 Maccabees 7:28 (which is included in the OT canon of Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics, but not included by most Protestants since it is not among the Hebrew works of the OT; it was probably originally composed in Greek, and is found in the LXX):

I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.​




It is not known to have existed in the history of Christianity outside of such groups. Unless you know something I don't, there's no reason to include it among those things that were anciently practiced by the Church but were forgotten or lost later. I mean, the entire reason I can reference St. John Chrysostom's homily that mentions them is because we have it, so we know the attitude of the Church going back at least that far, and you have nothing of similar antiquity that suggests that Christians ever failed to account for doctrinal differences between them and the gnostics, as well as differences in praxis. Before St. John, St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215) did a lot of work in distinguishing between the various gospels that circulated in Egypt in his time by sorting out which originated from the gnostics and which didn't, and Tertullian (155 - c.240) mentioned in one of his writings (not sure which one; my source on this is an episode of Fr. Andrew S. Damick's Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio, as Tertullian's writings must be handled with care, since he eventually left Christianity for Montanism) that the gnostics in a given congregation could be distinguished from the believers by how they refused to take the Eucharist.

So given that these differences were observed at such early dates it is incredibly unlikely that the Church Fathers and others would've misidentified a practice that they should have kept as originating from the gnostics if it was actually originally an accepted practice within the Church.



Baptism, yes; baptism for the dead, no.
THEOLOGY - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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Did you not know that "ex nihilo" is NOT in 2 Maccabees 7:28?

2 Maccabees 7:28
Revised Standard Version

28 I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.

Materials to make an F-16 did not exist either, metals had to be refined, glass had to be molten. Not a single part of an F-16 was found in nature they all had to be made. All the parts of man did not exist in nature either, God made them out of the dust and water of the earth. God did not make man out of nothing. Your conclusion is wrong.

After the temple was destroyed no more baptisms for the dead could be performed. Animal sacrifices in the temple were also discontinued.
2 Maccabees 7:28
Revised Standard Version

28 I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.

Colossians 1:15-18
Easy-to-Read Version
The Son of God Is the Same as God
15 No one can see God,
but the Son is exactly like God.
He rules over everything that has been made.[a]
16 Through his power all things were made:
things in heaven and on earth, seen and not seen—
all spiritual rulers, lords, powers, and authorities.
Everything was made through him and for him.

17 The Son was there before anything was made.
And all things continue because of him.
18 He is the head of the body, which is the church.
He is the beginning of everything else.
And he is the first among all who will be raised from death.
So in everything he is most important.
 
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Hahaha. Whatever. That's the dumbest example ever. The verse literally says God did not make them out of things that existed, establishing that God's creating is not dependent on the preexistence of matter. It's obviously not naming individual specific building materials because -- newsflash -- the verse is not about building a fighter jet.

read to here
 
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Hi Friend, am I mistaken that JS looked at a seer stone in his hat and God somehow displayed the words to be read and write down? Is not God Perfect and All Knowing?
If so, one would expect good grammar. Since, we do not have the gold plates any claim about them is just a good guess. One can make an abridgment using good grammar in one's own language. One doing a translation has a goal of using good understandable translation.
You said: "Hi Friend, am I mistaken that JS looked at a seer stone in his hat and God somehow displayed the words to be read and write down? Is not God Perfect and All Knowing?"

That is correct. So wouldn't the words be an exact translation of the Book of Mormon as it was written mistakes and all? That way when the plates are returned the wording will match even though there are mistakes. Also the Bible, should it not be perfect too?
 
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