If I Were an Abuser, What Church Would I Want to Attend?

bekkilyn

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Getting back to the topic of the article, if I were an abuser, I would go to a very authoritarian church where asking questions concerning my faith was frowned upon or even punished in some way. I would go to a church where men were reprimanded if they weren't strictly controlling their wives and children in the way the authoritarian church leadership deemed appropriate. I would go a church that regularly checked up on me to make sure that I was fulfilling my manly or womanly duties within my household. (It's called "accountability" after all.) I would make sure the church skillfully practices shunning even if it's disguised as something else.
 
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The Egalitarian Christians forum is a forum for discussion and fellowship for members who believe in Bibllcal equality between men and women. Some things about Egalitarians include:

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ewq1938

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com7fy8

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Abuse is wrong, in any case. And God's word shows how leaders need to relate with people >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

An abuser might stay in a church where there is no accountability, also. There are groups who have mainly Sunday service, everyone does what they are told to do together, and they go home. A person can hide in this setting.

An abuser can do a copy-cat prayer for salvation and get baptized, and be loved and talk well during home groups. Ones can praise the person and help him or her get married to another member . . . all without knowing how he or she really is.

I would say abusers can lurk and operate anywhere.

So, it is good to be able to make sure with God. Because, according to what I have seen and been told, there are ministers in various sorts of groups who have pronounced couples who did not belong with each other. Only with Jesus are we able to tell the difference. So, criticizing only some one sort of group is not going to solve the problem.

An abuser can charm you by petting your beliefs. Be able to make sure with God.
 
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Paidiske

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I think there is a problem with expecting clergy to predict and prevent abusive marriages. Not only is that pretty much an impossible expectation, but certainly in my tradition, we don't understand our role in marriage as being a gatekeeper. Our task is to witness the marriage formed by the free consent of the couple, not to grant or withhold access to marriage.
 
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com7fy8

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I think there is a problem with expecting clergy to predict and prevent abusive marriages. Not only is that pretty much an impossible expectation, but certainly in my tradition, we don't understand our role in marriage as being a gatekeeper. Our task is to witness the marriage formed by the free consent of the couple, not to grant or withhold access to marriage.
Thank you for making yourself clear. And God's word does say,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, indeed Jesus does not have people lording themselves over others, to control who gets married and who doesn't, I consider from this scripture.

But . . . :) lolololol

I think you can tell the difference about a person. And we are talking here about how "to adequately address domestic violence". I consider that prevention is the best cure. And you a pronouncer of marriages know abusers are being pronounced with victims. So, what do you do to adequately address this?

And I mean in general, while you meet with ones you are possibly going to pronounce.
 
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KayJoy

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Getting back to the topic of the article, if I were an abuser, I would go to a very authoritarian church where asking questions concerning my faith was frowned upon or even punished in some way. I would go to a church where men were reprimanded if they weren't strictly controlling their wives and children in the way the authoritarian church leadership deemed appropriate. I would go a church that regularly checked up on me to make sure that I was fulfilling my manly or womanly duties within my household. (It's called "accountability" after all.) I would make sure the church skillfully practices shunning even if it's disguised as something else.
Exactly...been in a church like that and that is exactly what happens. They disguise control and abuse behind scripture misapplied. Men are to be "priests and kings" in the home ...lording over the wife and children. And if you were a man or woman with children, they were expected to be completely silent through a 2 hr service by age 6 months. If not, you were a bad parent. Needless to say, I was a bad parent. I listen to my babies' cries and respond how a normal mother should. Some mothers were placed on a pedestal bc their babies were so "well behaved." Well I guess so if you were a baby who was punished with pinches and spanking if you let out a whimper. So a baby is taught a lot about God not hearing their cries...no needs...physical or emotional...wet or dirty diaper, hungry tummy, pain, etc. Women were to be silent and submissive in every way...not asking questions (even at home).
 
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Paidiske

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I think you can tell the difference about a person. And we are talking here about how "to adequately address domestic violence". I consider that prevention is the best cure. And you a pronouncer of marriages know abusers are being pronounced with victims. So, what do you do to adequately address this?

And I mean in general, while you meet with ones you are possibly going to pronounce.

You can't tell, though. Abusers groom their communities, not just their victims. The idea that someone might be able to know - perhaps after as few as three or so meetings - that someone will turn out to be controlling is unrealistic.

Prevention is better than cure; so that's why it's important to have church communities where these things are talked about openly; where people hear that the message of Scripture is that God's will for marriage is not where one spouse controls the other. Part of the problem is when men believe they are entitled to have wives who obey or submit.

And where the church sends the message that it will not support domestic violence in any way. Some of that can be subtle. One thing I did in the church I've just finished at, was put posters for a domestic violence response centre in all the toilets. Those posters didn't just give information about where to go for help; they made it clear this was a church where we didn't expect you to submit to abuse.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Does the Bible specifically give any rights to women/wives who are experiencing domestic violence?

Unfortunately much of our language of abuse and domestic violence is modern, and so it is difficult--perhaps impossible--to expect ancient writers (even divinely inspired ones) to employ the same kind of language we might use in our culture--especially in a post-suffragette and women's rights world.

That said, Scripture very clearly teaches very important things--things which form the basis of good relational and sexual ethics of respect, love, compassion, gentleness, and justice which simply does not allow domestic and sexual violence to be, in anyway whatsoever, acceptable within Christianity.

St. Paul teaches in Ephesians ch. 5 that, as Christians, we are to demonstrate humility and respect through mutual submissiveness to one another out of our love and devotion to Christ, see Ephesians 5:21.

This is important, because this is the establishment clause that provides context for the following things St. Paul writes, both in the rest of chapter 5, as well as continuing into chapter 6.

In fact, in our earliest New Testament manuscripts here is how Ephesians 5:22 reads as the following,

αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ
ai gunaikes tois idiois andrasin hos to kurio
the wives the their-own husbands as-to the Lord
"wives, their own husbands, as to the Lord"

You'll notice it doesn't make much sense even after being translated, and that's because the text lacks a verb.

This is fine in Greek, as the verb is assumed and borrowed from the preceding statement, in this case the verb being borrowed is borrowed from verse 21, ὑποτασσόμενοι "submitting".

This is important, because it indicates that verse 21 is actually the beginning of what Paul is going to talk about continuing forward, rather than being the conclusion of one thought and then establishing a brand new thought in verse 22. Paul is actually using his establishing thought on mutual submission to one another out of our devotion to Christ, and going on to provide everyday examples of what this mutual submitting looks like.

Which is also why Paul doesn't only say "wives, to your husbands" in verse 22, but then flips the script and exhorts men to likewise submit to their wives in verse 25. So it is never one sided, wives to their husbands alone; but wife to husband and also husband to wife.

Paul actually continues to do this kind of flipping in chapter 6, where he discusses relationships between parents and children, and also slaves and masters.

Paul begins with the socially-normative at the time: wives to husbands, children to parents, slaves to masters. But in each case also flips it, also saying husbands to wives, parents to children, and masters to slaves. This is, arguably, most clear in the case of master-slave relationships, as Paul quite explicitly tells masters that they are supposed to behave the exact same way to their slaves, that is, the master is to submit and serve their slave.

Paul provides here a rather radical notion of equality within the Christian community. While at no point does the Apostle attempt to upend the secular social establishment and order; he instead calls the Christian community to a way of relating to one another and living with one another that is fundamentally different.

We moderns might like to ask why doesn't Paul simply say that slavery is wrong and that every slave should be set free? That's a justifiable, but also very modern way of looking at things with the benefit of our hindsight given our knowledge and history with the institution of slavery based on the systemic oppression of people that has occurred within modern history. That doesn't mean slavery was ever okay, it just means that we have a benefit afforded us by hindsight. But it is worth noting that Paul absolutely does advocate for slaves to seek their freedom if they are able, and for masters to grant it.

We need to remember that, in Paul's time, the nascent Church was still a tiny blip on the religious radar of the world, not much more than a messianic Jewish movement with a handful of followers scattered across the Roman world. Paul was in no position to even be conceiving of the idea that Christians could ever actually wield political or social power to affect social change--for Paul it was simply the Church's mission to be the Church within the social order in which it existed, to be the people of the Gospel among the nations.

But, I say all this, because when we do see what Paul is saying, in the context which he says it, what he is saying is profound: The Church is not the same thing as the prevailing social order, the Church is Christ's thing, and the liberty and freedom we have found in Christ gives birth to a way of being a people that looks forward not to a new social order as part of this world--but to the perfection that will appear in the future world, when God has made all things new. The Church therefore lives in the midst of the dying order of the world, to proclaim the truthful hope of salvation and the life of that coming world--that life which we now share in, in part, through faith. There is the now and not yet; we have for example been raised with Christ and so share in His resurrection even now through faith by the grace of God, but there is still yet to come that glorious day when we are raised up, bodily, to that life that shall never fade away.

Thus when we submit to one another in love, by our devotion to Christ, we are living as a Christian people, living in imitation of the Crucified Lord, who though God, became man and was humble even to the point of suffering and death on the cross. We esteem others more than ourselves, putting the needs of others ahead of our own, loving our neighbors, caring for the poor, the hungry, and the needy.

We give ourselves away to one another, in love, even as God gives Himself away to us in Christ, out of His great love for us.

Thus there is is, as the Apostle says, no no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free--for we are all one in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And if all these things are true, then there is no room for tolerating domestic and sexual violence in the Church, but instead the Church is obligated to support the victims of abuse, and to protect them. And to be intolerant against such evil and violence in our congregations.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Per the article, how did it not register on the belt-buckle wearing preacher that backhanding is abuse? One answer for my own context: I think in the States we have a whole Christian culture that, wittingly or unwittingly, creates a "safe space" for abusers. IMO, it comes down to the scriptures and how they're used. There are those who know how to use it to support their misogyny. And then there are those who may not abuse their spouses, and may not see themselves as misogynistic, but use the scriptures in the same way so that it becomes a whole community effort. In other words, it's systemic. If it's ever going to be rooted out, it has to start with the scriptures and how they're used. To be honest, I don't know how to even begin addressing that root issue. It's ubiquitous. The work that the gentleman was doing in the article is commendable. But, convincing one or two, or even a handful, isn't going to do the trick. Until a large majority of Christians begin to see and use the scriptures differently, the same problems are going to keep cropping up. I hope I'm wrong, because that sounds really pessimistic. Sorry. :(
 
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bekkilyn

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Per the article, how did it not register on the belt-buckle wearing preacher that backhanding is abuse? One answer for my own context: I think in the States we have a whole Christian culture that, wittingly or unwittingly, creates a "safe space" for abusers. IMO, it comes down to the scriptures and how they're used. There are those who know how to use it to support their misogyny. And then there are those who may not abuse their spouses, and may not see themselves as misogynistic, but use the scriptures in the same way so that it becomes a whole community effort. In other words, it's systemic. If it's ever going to be rooted out, it has to start with the scriptures and how they're used. To be honest, I don't know how to even begin addressing that root issue. It's ubiquitous. The work that the gentleman was doing in the article is commendable. But, convincing one or two, or even a handful, isn't going to do the trick. Until a large majority of Christians begin to see and use the scriptures differently, the same problems are going to keep cropping up. I hope I'm wrong, because that sounds really pessimistic. Sorry. :(

It's one reason why we can't just say that some "milder" forms of Complementarianism are okay because not all Complementarian men abuse their wives, but yet they are indeed participating in an abusive system that acts as a shield for men who are very much abusing their wives.

Complementarianism is not okay in any form whatsoever, and it's also an abuse of scripture.
 
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It's one reason why we can't just say that some "milder" forms of Complementarianism are okay because not all Complementarian men abuse their wives, but yet they are indeed participating in an abusive system that acts as a shield for men who are very much abusing their wives.

Complementarianism is not okay in any form whatsoever, and it's also an abuse of scripture.

I agree. It is an abuse of scripture. And, the kind of exegesis that @ViaCrucis gave above is the kind of thing we need across the board. Will that happen? I'm not holding my breath, but then again I'm pretty cynical.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hi,

Becasue this issue was raised here (in another post) I have written an article on what I feel the church's position should be on Domestic Violence. Please read the following and make comments, so I can improve it in its areas of weakness.

Domestic Violence and the Victim
Basically it is my opinion that in Domestic Violence situations a person should 1) seek a way to leave the environment, 2) allow time for the partner to realize they must change, 3) if they show no signs of changing, the victim has freedom to leave.

To support this biblically I will use a few passages.

But first let's clarify the three above steps.

  1. The victim should first be removed from the element of danger, they should not be left in the home, or situation where they may face violence.
  2. With the separation in place, the perpetrator should be approached for counselling, the aim of counselling is to see if there is possibility of redemptive outcomes. These out comes can not be just verbal accent to a goal to do better, they must be followed through with genuine change of life style. The victim should never be placed back in the home or reach of the perpetrator if there is potential for violence to re-occur. It must be stressed in counselling that the marriage will be terminated (on the request of the victim) if violence does occur. There is no place in the church for violence, and if the wife wishes to walk away in this step, without attempting to reconcile she may do so.
  3. If the wife feels unsafe continuing in the relationship she may leave.
Some will quote strictly Jesus words that follow,

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Mat 19:9

They will say it is binding, meaning a wife cannot leave their husband, for any other reason other than Adultery, they will say even domestic violence must be tolerated. But this is not the case, the bible must be examined in light of all scripture. The bible has other reasons that a woman may leave their husband. Paul said that if a nonbelieving husband wishes to leave their now Christian wife, that the wife is under no obligation to the man, and may continue their life.

But if the one who is not a Christian has a desire to go away, let it be so: the brother or the sister in such a position is not forced to do one thing or the other: but it is God's pleasure that we may be at peace with one another. 1Co 7:15

So this shows that the Holy Spirit, who was speaking through Paul, has "other reasons", other than adultery to leave a relationship.

1 Co 7:15 ends with this comforting verse regarding a wife and marriage. "it is God's pleasure that we may be at peace with one another. "

It is clear that a) adultery is not the only exit from a marriage, b) that God also calls us to be at peace with one another.

Domestic violence is not in any shape or form "living at peace", which we see is God's desire. However note I did say in my first paragraph, that it would be optimal to enable the offending partner time to change, but if they will not, a wife should move on without spiritual guilt.

I believe that this covers the spirit of the bible, leave to safety, do not return to the relationship if there is potential for violence, but give time for reflection and change to the offender, then removing yourself entirely through a divorce if the partner will not change. Remember adultery was not the only biblical case for total separation.

However this doctrine still is not easy escapism, the Spirit of Jesus words in Matthew 19:9 still stands. It has to be a fairly serious reason to break up a marriage, not just “I don’t like my husband anymore”, or “he does not treat me like he used to”, it would have to be an abusive relationship, that breaks God’s contract of “peace with one another”. The key is to try to build relationships not destroy them.

The bibles view of Domestic Violence | Everybody Matters Ministry
 
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Paidiske

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I think what you've said there is sound, @FutureAndAHope. I think perhaps it could be strengthened by pointing out that the problem is not only violence as such, but any attempt by one spouse to control the other (by emotional, social, financial means etc).
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I think what you've said there is sound, @FutureAndAHope. I think perhaps it could be strengthened by pointing out that the problem is not only violence as such, but any attempt by one spouse to control the other (by emotional, social, financial means etc).

I guess from my perspective, I feel it would only be needful to address the issue of control through counseling not be grounds for divorce. Although it could cause some emotional strain, I feel those issues are more the type of thing God would have us endure patiently, as they normally originate in insecurities in the man, the need to know where the wife is as an example often stems from fear she may be unfaithful. However, the moment it comes to the physical safety of the woman then I feel there is definitely grounds for separation, and divorce if the woman wants it.
 
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Paidiske

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I think what we're getting at there is the definition of abuse. I would say that abuse is more than physical violence; it encompasses a whole range of behaviours.

This diagram is useful:

power-and-control-wheel-updated-1011x10241.png
 
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Junia

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I guess from my perspective, I feel it would only be needful to address the issue of control through counseling not be grounds for divorce. Although it could cause some emotional strain, I feel those issues are more the type of thing God would have us endure patiently, as they normally originate in insecurities in the man, the need to know where the wife is as an example often stems from fear she may be unfaithful. However, the moment it comes to the physical safety of the woman then I feel there is definitely grounds for separation, and divorce if the woman wants it.

abuse is abuse. Take a look at.the Duluth Model
 
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bekkilyn

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Emotional abuse can be even more of a danger to a person than physical abuse. While physical abuse may lead to the death of the body, emotional abuse can severely damage or even destroy the very spirit of a person. It's not just something to "patiently endure" in hopes that it gets better. It won't.
 
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