If I murder someone (or commit another "sin"...

[jpcedotal]

So, was it part of god´s plan for Judas to deliver Jesus to his killers (and thereby do his part in enabling the entire salvation thing), or was it not part of his plan?
Was it god´s will that Judas would do that, or was it not?

It was was GOD's WILL for His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to be crucified so the WORLD's sins could be forgiven. He, in all his infinite wisdom, knew man would take care of the PLAN...since we are all sinners needing saving.

 

[jpcedotal]

God knew that when the choice came to Judas to stand by Jesus or turn against Him, he would take the money and run.

How?

God knew Judas's god was money.

 

[jpcedotal]

Of course Judas could have chosen not to. Jesus would have been crucified and freed us from payment for our sins anyway.

It was always going to be Judas. God knew his heart better than Judas did. God knows our hearts better than we do.

 

[jpcedotal]

There is an obvious question here that I know needs to be asked.....

 

[quatona]

Your turn to answer one since I was respectable enough to answer yours...

God knows every man's heart, so does God know every man's decision before he makes it?

Well, I don´t hold any god concept of my own, so I guess I am the wrong person to ask.

Furthermore, I have problems giving rational answers to hypothetical the premises of which are worded poetically.

However, I think that it is Christian doctrine that, yes, god does know every man´s actions before they make them. That´s why I was concluding that therefore every of those actions must be part of god´s plan (in this particular Christian god concept), in the first place.
I create a world, I create beings, I know what their actions will be (as a consequence of how I create them) - so I wouldn´t know how to come up with the claim that everything that happens within this creation is anything but my plan.

 

[quatona]

It was was GOD's WILL for His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to be crucified so the WORLD's sins could be forgiven. He, in all his infinite wisdom, knew man would take care of the PLAN

Whose plan?

 

[jpcedotal]

Are the words "plan" and "will" synonyms when you use them or are you making a distinction between the two terms?

 

[quatona]

Are the words "plan" and "will" synonyms when you use them or are you making a distinction between the two terms?

In regards to an allegedly omniscient and omnipotent creatorgod i wouldn´t know how to make a distinction between the two. That´s why I was asking how you guys manage to do that, in the first place. I´m trying to understand how you conceptualize "plan" and "will" when it comes to the god of your concept.
Whilst when it comes to not omnipotent, not omniscient beings as myself who haven´t created the conditions of their existence, I sure can make such a distinction. E.g. it´s not my will for this plate to drop and break (my will would be for it to drop but remain unbroken), but in view of the conditions I haven´t created I may have a plan how to act once the plate has dropped and is broken.

 

[jayem]

There is an obvious question here that I know needs to be asked.....

A question that becomes apparent to me is did God specifically choose Judas to betray Jesus?

 

[Smidlee]

If you want a example of God plan vs man's will then I suggest reading the book of Esther. As Mordecai replied to Esther "For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place...." So Mordecai knew God would save the Jews yet he encourage Esther to be a part of God's plan.
So God does have a ultimate plan that does not determine what choices you make. Yet you still have a choice if you want to be in His plan or against Him as did Haman. The very choices Haman made lead to his death. He was even hung on the gallows that he built for Mordecai.
Judas could have choice to be for Christ or against him just like the other 11 disciples. So yes I believe God had a more perfect plan for Judas just as He did for satan.

 

[jpcedotal]

A question that becomes apparent to me is did God specifically choose Judas to betray Jesus?

Nope, Judas did that own his own....God just knew he would.

 

[rosenherman]

If you want a example of God plan vs man's will then I suggest reading the book of Esther. As Mordecai replied to Esther "For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place...." So Mordecai knew God would save the Jews yet he encourage Esther to be a part of God's plan.
So God does have a ultimate plan that does not determine what choices you make. Yet you still have a choice if you want to be in His plan or against Him as did Haman. The very choices Haman made lead to his death. He was even hung on the gallows that he built for Mordecai.
Judas could have choice to be for Christ or against him just like the other 11 disciples. So yes I believe God had a more perfect plan for Judas just as He did for satan.

Perfect example. Well chosen.

 

[jayem]

Nope, Judas did that own his own....God just knew he would.

So then was it just random chance that Judas, who God knew would do it, became one of the disciples and was in a position to betray Jesus?

 

[Verv]

And beyond the general idea of "allowing his creatures free will", the details that result(ed) from this decision were part of his plan or were they against his plan?

They are a part of his plan, but in a real sense they are against His will -- He would prefer that we did not misbehave ourrselves as such.

Let me give a prominent example: Was it god´s plan for Judas to betray Jesus, or was it against his plan?
To me it seems that the unfolding of god´s plan (provided god is indeed the mastermind, and everything unfolds according to his plan) downright depends on humans acting sinfully. What if Judas had used his "freewill" to abstain from delivering Jesus to the killers? Would salvation have been cancelled?

God, in His omniscience, probably knew that Judas would betray Christ because God knew His heart.

Or perhaps God did not use his power to look into the future that far and had never planned for Judas to do it, but rather that was the result. It was not predicted terribly in advance that Judas would do that.

I think both options are viable.

Quotana, I apologize if I seem slippery and uncommitted in thsi argument; but that is the case. I merely cannot proclaim the full truth on this one as I do not feel theologically suited enough to come up with conclusive arguments.

 

[quatona]

They are a part of his plan, but in a real sense they are against His will -- He would prefer that we did not misbehave ourrselves as such.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I don´t seem to get how one can possibly conceptualize a difference between "will" and "plan" when it comes to an omniscient, omnipotent creator god of everything.

God, in His omniscience, probably knew that Judas would betray Christ because God knew His heart.

The entire salvation plan depended on Judas (and others) sinning in the process. And were it not for Judas, someone had to sin for god´s salvation plan to unfold. Crucifiying (and contributing to it) a divine sinless being must necessarily be a sin, wouldn´t you agree?

Or perhaps God did not use his power to look into the future that far and had never planned for Judas to do it, but rather that was the result. It was not predicted terribly in advance that Judas would do that.

Well, yes, a god that creates planlessly is conceivable. E.g. in the sense of "I create something, let it run its course and let´s see what happens."
Maybe there is a Christian doctrine out there that presumes such. However, right from the top of my head I can´t think of any. I was under the impression that god being the planful mastermind was essential to Christianity, and that the Christian doctrine is downright circled around the idea that it was god´s plan for his son to be crucified for the purpose of our salvation, and not just an unintended accident - but I may be wrong.

Quotana, I apologize if I seem slippery and uncommitted in thsi argument; but that is the case. I merely cannot proclaim the full truth on this one as I do not feel theologically suited enough to come up with conclusive arguments.

That´s fine and fair enough. I am happier discussing with people who are aware that their opinion is just their opinion and not "the full truth", anyway. Actually, that´s exactly what I expect from a discussion (as opposed to a debate): people taking the time to get together for the purpose of thinking something through, and everyone contributing certain aspects, perspectives, options - rather than beating each other over the head with preconceived putative "truths".
So all is well.