If I don't completely agree with predestination, am I still saved?

[alexfrankone]

I've studied the Bible endlessly on this topic, and I came to the conclusion that obviously God calls us first, but then it's up to us to accept the free gift of salvation.

I've studied some verses that seem to contradict the Calvinistic view of predestination.

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”- 2 Peter 3:9

“Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own”- John 7:17

“But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”- Joshua 24:15

“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”- Revelation 3:20

“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”- Romans 10:9-10

“See the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near.” Isaiah 55:6

“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”- Deuteronomy 30:19-20

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”- Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”- John 1:12-13

“But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.”- Isaiah 63:10

"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.”- Acts 7:51

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17

“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.”- 1 John 4:14

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved, and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.”- 1 Timothy 2:3-6

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”- John 3:36

“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.”- 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”- Romans 10:13

“The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”- Revelation 22:17

“Yet you refuse to come to me so that you may have life.”- John 5:40 (This is Jesus speaking.)

“For many are called (hear the gospel), but few are chosen (respond to the call).”- Matthew 22:14

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”- John 5:24

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”- 1 John 2:2

 

[~Anastasia~]

If I don't completely agree with predestination, am I still saved?

I missed the part where Jesus said, "if thou wouldst be saved, thou must completely agree with the doctrine called "predestination" that will one day be taught."

I don't remember Paul saying, "agree completely with the doctrine of predestination, and thou shalt be saved."


Sorry - that's a bit tongue-in-cheek. But being saved/healed has little to do with mental gymnastics.

Welcome to CF. And God be with you.

 

[Glaucus]

Nobody knows if they are saved. It's a process until the day you die.

 

[alexfrankone]

If I don't completely agree with predestination, am I still saved?

I missed the part where Jesus said, "if thou wouldst be saved, thou must completely agree with the doctrine called "predestination" that will one day be taught."

I don't remember Paul saying, "agree completely with the doctrine of predestination, and thou shalt be saved."


Sorry - that's a bit tongue-in-cheek. But being saved/healed has little to do with mental gymnastics.

Welcome to CF. And God be with you.

You are correct in the fact that neither Jesus or Paul say you have to believe in predestination and be saved. However, if you live in unrepentant sin, you may not be saved.

 

[ronandcarol]

There is only one sure way to be saved, Repent of your sins, seek the mercy and forgiveness of God, Trust in your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and follow His commandments. Believe and have faith.
ronandcarol

 

[~Anastasia~]

You are correct in the fact that neither Jesus or Paul say you have to believe in predestination and be saved. However, if you live in unrepentant sin, you may not be saved.

I don't disagree. But that's not what I thought you were asking?

 

[alexfrankone]

I don't disagree. But that's not what I thought you were asking?

I thought it was a sin to not believe in predestination, and living in sin leads to Hell. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

 

[Anto9us]

“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”- Romans 10:9-10

I think you answered your own question "am I still saved"?
I mean, if you still declare and still believe - that's it.

Predestination is by FOREKNOWLEDGE of who will believe and persevere, it does not negate free will.

It is not a sin to NOT believe in predestination the way the Calvinists view it, no.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I thought it was a sin to not believe in predestination, and living in sin leads to Hell. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

Ah, I see.

I would beware of anyone who tells you that it's a sin not to believe in predestination - especially if what they mean is that it's a sin not to believe in predestination as they articulate it.

God is far more concerned with our hearts, and whether we love Him and one another - by action (not necessarily warm fuzzy feelings).

There ARE certain things that are a part of "necessary belief" ... but predestination doesn't even come close. Such things as Jesus being the Son of God, resurrecting from the dead, etc. And the bottom line is that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. We don't dictate who He saves.

I hope you find the answers you seek. And again, welcome.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is a Scripture that says that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son. (Romans 8:29). The other reference is found in Ephesians 1:11 where we are predestined according to His will and He works everything out according to His plan. But we must balance that with "Choose you this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:14-15). This links in with Moses asking the assembled people, "Who is on the Lord's side?" (Exodus 32:26).

So, when we look at these references, we see an element of predestination, but we also see an element of choice; so somehow they both work together - the problem is the chicken and the egg question: which came first? The chicken or the egg; or predestination before choice, or choice resulting in predestination?

It seems to me that those of us who are in Christ, are aware that we were predestined in the way that the Holy Spirit worked on us to bring us to a decision for Christ. We got the invitation and we chose to accept it. Once having accepted, we learn that we were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus.

It also seems to me that those who have never made a decision for Christ are blinded by the god of this world, and therefore are totally unaware of whether they are predestined or not. In fact, they don't really care because they have no revelational knowledge about it.

 

[Oldmantook]

I thought it was a sin to not believe in predestination, and living in sin leads to Hell. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

The notion of predestination is incorporated into a systematic theology known as Calvinism which you are already familiar with. It is man's way of trying to systematically understand the whole of Scripture in a uniformed and consistent manner - nothing more; nothing less. Man is subject to error so Calvinism/Reformed theology is also subject to error. If it was sin to not believe in predestination, then all Arminians would be going to hell.

 

[royal priest]

“That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not. The fault is in our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and I find that in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.” (C.H. Spurgeon Autobiography: Volume 1: The Early Years; Banner of Truth; page 174)

 

[Anto9us]

If it was sin to not believe in predestination, then all Arminians would be going to hell.

It is the foreknowledge angle which allows us Arminians to believe in free will and in a non-Calvinistic predestination simultaneously -- at the same time, too.

 

[Rubiks]

Yes, you can be a Christian without believing in predestination.

What I utterly dislike about many vocal Calvinists is that they talk far more about election / predestination (which Arminians believe in too, just defined differently and more limited in scope) far more than any biblical author. They make it the main thesis of the gospel itself, rather than what Jesus did on the cross.

EDIT: not to mention, Calvinists can go to unbiblical extremes and say that faith is a work. Faith in the bible is regularly contrasted with works.

 

[Albion]

I thought it was a sin to not believe in predestination, and living in sin leads to Hell. .

I am curious as to where you picked up that idea, but in any case, no, predestination is either correct or it is not, but it is not a sin for you to disbelieve in it.

As others here apparently thought, believing in predestination -- or in free will -- doesn't affect the way you live your life one way or the other.

 

[Oldmantook]

It is the foreknowledge angle which allows us Arminians to believe in free will and in a non-Calvinistic predestination simultaneously -- at the same time, too.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Arminians and Calvinists define foreknowledge differently. Foreknowledge to an Arminian means that God knows in advance what choice a person makes in regards to one's salvation. Foreknowledge to a Calvinist means that God is the one who elects a person to salvation and the person has no choice because it is God and not the person who chose it.

 

[Albion]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Arminians and Calvinists define foreknowledge differently. Foreknowledge to an Arminian means that God knows in advance what choice a person makes in regards to one's salvation. Foreknowledge to a Calvinist means that God is the one who elects a person to salvation and the person has no choice because it is God and not the person who chose it.

That's predestination, not foreknowledge. And I'm fairly sure that Calvinists know the difference. I do occasionally run into freewill people who do not, however.

 

[Rick Otto]

I've studied the Bible endlessly on this topic, and I came to the conclusion that obviously God calls us first, but then it's up to us to accept the free gift of salvation.

I've studied some verses that seem to contradict the Calvinistic view of predestination.

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”- 2 Peter 3:9

“Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own”- John 7:17

“But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”- Joshua 24:15

“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”- Revelation 3:20

“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”- Romans 10:9-10

“See the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near.” Isaiah 55:6

“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”- Deuteronomy 30:19-20

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”- Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”- John 1:12-13

“But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.”- Isaiah 63:10

"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.”- Acts 7:51

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17

“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.”- 1 John 4:14

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved, and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.”- 1 Timothy 2:3-6

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”- John 3:36

“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.”- 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”- Romans 10:13

“The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”- Revelation 22:17

“Yet you refuse to come to me so that you may have life.”- John 5:40 (This is Jesus speaking.)

“For many are called (hear the gospel), but few are chosen (respond to the call).”- Matthew 22:14

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”- John 5:24

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”- 1 John 2:2

I agree, they seem to.
It's good to get our soteriology in order but in order to live in peace with ourselves we shouldn't let perfect become the enemy of good.
I believe it is for that reason Jesus reduced the 10 commandments to two.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes, you can be a Christian without believing in predestination.

What I utterly dislike about many vocal Calvinists is that they talk far more about election / predestination (which Arminians believe in too, just defined differently and more limited in scope) far more than any biblical author. They make it the main thesis of the gospel itself, rather than what Jesus did on the cross.

EDIT: not to mention, Calvinists can go to unbiblical extremes and say that faith is a work. Faith in the bible is regularly contrasted with works.

I agree one can be Christian without believing in predestination because God may have planned it that way.
The main thing I dislike about Arminians is their focus on what they like. (lol)
I part ways with Calvin on sacramentology, and ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.