If 'he' will crush...then what? please help.

[babychrist]

Questions:

Saint Jerome's translation of Gen 3:15 as it has come down to us reads:

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

All other translations have 'he' or 'they'.

Q: 1) Does the Greek Septuagint as it has come down to us, have the masculine or plural?

Q: 2) If the original manuscripts have been lost to us, are modern translation based upon copies older that what Jerome used? (I'm guessing the answer is 'possibly' given the discovery of the dead sea scrolls) ?

Q: 3) Is the scrolls translation of Gen 2:15 feminine, plural, or singular?

Q: 4) If only Jerome's translation has the feminine, are apparitions, such as Rue Du Blac where Mary appeared standing on the serpents head, to be considered as improbable, perhaps even false?

(Many scholars say that it doesn't ultimately matter whether the feminine or masculine is correct, since the sense is the same. That may be true from a scholarly point of view, but I find it unsatisfactory when looking at the issue from a pictorial point of view (per apparitions like Rue Du Blac). Mary crushing the serpent's head sends a very specific message, one which seems to have gone hand in hand with Jerome's translation).

Q: 5) If Jerome's translation is proven incorrect, then what am I as a Catholic to make of the aforementioned apparition, the immaculate conception to which it has attached itself ect?.

Q: 6) Or does the image of Mary crushing the serpent's head derive from somewhere else than Jerome's translation, perhaps the same tradition wherein Jerome himself translated Gen 3:15?

Thanks.

 

[Rhamiel]

the apperitions were not made to give dogma but to show people that God is faithful and that He will send Mary to help them and that her prayers are powerful, so God gave them imagery that they knew, like the woman crushing the serpents head

 

[MrPolo]

Q: 1) Does the Greek Septuagint as it has come down to us, have the masculine or plural?

In most of what I've read, as well as my college master's theology prof, says the Hebrew term is one we don't have a perfect translation for. "It" would be the closest thing, although it is not personable. The word there is ambiguous. And here for the sake of other views is an article that believes "she" came about as a copyist error. A number of current Protestant translations actually do use "it."

You can also see some ante-types of Mary in the Old Testament smiting the enemy's head (Jael and Judith), as well as David. See here for a really good treatment on that. These two women are also typologically told "blessed are you among women": Jael (Jg 5:24) and Judith (Judith 13:18). So you see how these women are linked to the description of Mary in the NT, and how they are depicted in stories where they smite the enemy's head.

You can also see Paul telling the church at Rome how God will crush the serpent under their feet (Rm 16:20). And Mary is typologically the figure of the Church, which I can go more into as well.

There is a togetherness in Genesis 3:15 that Mary and Jesus are to both have enmity between them and the serpent, and the passage can be fairly understood that the woman crushes the serpent's head through "her" seed. You can see a consistency in this cooperative role of Mary's in the prophecy of Simeon when he prophesies that Jesus will be a savior, and includes Mary in this Passion saying "a sword will pierce your soul too." (Lk 2:25-35)

I don't think you should be bothered by statues that only show Mary stomping the serpent. If you are well-versed in Marian theology, you know all her merits are from Christ anyway. In other words, all the good she does, just like you or me, is properly His work. It's kind of like St. Michael the Archangel shown defeating the devil. Does that mean Christ is NOT the devil's defeater? Of course not.

 

[GailMc]

Dear babychrist - I get kinda upset by the re-arranging of the Protoevangelium that tries to change God into a woman, etc. Once I bought a very expensive Bible, (well at least for me it was cause I'm poor) and got soooooo mad at the typographical error that I threw it accross the room and then called the folks who sold it to me and chewed them out! There are even statues that have Mary standing on top of a the symbol of the devil and have it touching her, as if he could! I get wiggy over those too! Sorry I can't be of much help with your confusion about which Bible translation to use or discredit. St. Jerome didn't call God a woman. That I'm sure of. And no if you read Genesis, you will find everything is as it should be, without confusion between the sexes. I think some denominations use the mixed up versions to support a failing theology where women and men can have interchangeable roles in the priesthood, etc.

Peace and all good,

Gail

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

(I wrote this in August)

When Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden, God already knew exactly what He would do to bring humanity back to Him. He already had planned to send God the Son into the world as Jesus Christ to sacrifice Himself. So God told this plan to Eve and to the Serpent (the devil), this is commonly called the "Protoevangelium" ("First Gospel"):

"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Gen 3:15; DRB - Catholic)

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Gen. 3:15; KJV - Protestant)

If you notice, the Douay-Rheims translation uses "she" and the King James uses "he." The Hebrew is gender-neutral. The pre-Christian Greek Septuagint uses "he" but the Christian Latin Vulgate uses "she".

But all this debate when the original Hebrew says "it"! So the question really is: Does Mary crush the head of the serpent or Jesus? Catholic statues and paintings of Mary sometimes have her crushing the head of the serpent. I love how nonchalant she is in these images, as though defeating Satan really is beneath her dignity (and it is!). Since it is Christ who truly finally overcame Satan and provided for the redemption of the world and it is Mary who was sinless and brought Christ into the world, both answers are correct.

The third answer, that the seed of the woman is the Church (cf. Rev 12:17), is also correct. Remember, Christ is the Head of the Church and Mary is the first person saved through the New Covenant and the "neck" of the Church, connecting Christ with the Body. Revelation 12 also gives credence to the Catholic interpretation of Mary, since the dragon goes to make war with the Woman (Mary) but the Child (Christ), in that story, is adjunct.

It is possible God used this gender-neutral Hebrew word to let us see the varying levels of interpretation that wouldn't be possible if He had just written either "he" or "she".

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Dear babychrist - I get kinda upset by the re-arranging of the Protoevangelium that tries to change God into a woman, etc. Once I bought a very expensive Bible, (well at least for me it was cause I'm poor) and got soooooo mad at the typographical error that I threw it accross the room and then called the folks who sold it to me and chewed them out! There are even statues that have Mary standing on top of a the symbol of the devil and have it touching her, as if he could! I get wiggy over those too! Sorry I can't be of much help with your confusion about which Bible translation to use or discredit. St. Jerome didn't call God a woman. That I'm sure of. And no if you read Genesis, you will find everything is as it should be, without confusion between the sexes. I think some denominations use the mixed up versions to support a failing theology where women and men can have interchangeable roles in the priesthood, etc.

Peace and all good,

Gail

Woah, chill, Jerome didn't call God a woman, nor is "she" a typographical error. The Hebrew is neutral, the Septuagint is masculine and the Vulgate is feminine. There are layers of meaning here.

Why do you get upset at statues of Mary showing her crushing the serpent? That is the traditional interpretation of Gen 3:15. Mary crushes the serpent through the enmities placed between her and the serpent (i.e. her immaculate conception and sinless life) and primarily by giving birth to the One who ultimately crushes the serpent.

As the above poster said, St. Michael cast the devil out of heaven and Mary crushed the serpent but these are indirect reflections of Christ conquering of the devil on the Cross.

It is valid to translate the one who crushes either as "he" (Christ) or "she" (Mary). There is nothing wrong with translating Gen 3:15 as "she", nor with portraying Mary crushing the serpent, nor with her appearances in which she shows herself crushing the serpent. This neither calls God a woman nor takes any dignity away from Christ. Think about it, the proud one was "beat by a girl"

 

[prodromos]

Woah, chill, Jerome didn't call God a woman, nor is "she" a typographical error. The Hebrew is neutral, the Septuagint is masculine and the Vulgate is feminine. There are layers of meaning here.

The Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew by Jews who understood the meaning of the text. The feminine in the Latin Vulgate is a mistranslation. The layers you suggest are there simply are not.

John

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

The Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew by Jews who understood the meaning of the text. The feminine in the Latin Vulgate is a mistranslation. The layers you suggest are there simply are not.

John

The verse has been translated in the Latin Church variously as "ipsum" (it), "ipse" (he) or "ipsa" (she) because of the ambiguity of the underlying Hebrew text. All three readings are found among the Latin Fathers. St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, and the Venerable Bede all read "ipsa".

That it refers to the Church is attested to by St. Paul:

And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily.

As well as St. John:

And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If God crushes Satan under the feet of the Church and the Blessed Virgin is firstborn of the Church and representative of the whole, then there is no reason why the Virgin should not be represented crushing the serpent. A feminine reading relating to either the Church or Mary, is supported by the Latin Fathers and by Paul and John in the New Testament. There is nothing lost by reading "ipsa" instead of "ipsum" or "ipse" and much gained.

God works through creatures, through angels, His Mystical Body the Church and especially Our Blessed Mother. He shall, She shall, We shall crush the head of the serpent.

 

[babychrist]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

 

[prodromos]

If God crushes Satan under the feet of the Church and the Blessed Virgin is firstborn of the Church and representative of the whole, then there is no reason why the Virgin should not be represented crushing the serpent.

Then please provide references which explain that Mary is symbolic of the Church in those paintings depicting her crushing the serpent under her feet. I don't believe such references exist, nor do I believe that was the meaning intended by the painter. If you have anything which demonstrates otherwise then please provide them.

John