If God Wants All Men to Be Saved...

[chestertonrules]

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


Why aren't all men saved?

 

[bradfordl]

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


Why aren't all men saved?

I guess if you want to read it a certain way, it could mean that God is just not powerful enough to get what He wants.... Or....
Maybe what John Gill has to say will clarify things for you, neighbor:

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[chestertonrules]

I guess if you want to read it a certain way, it could mean that God is just not powerful enough to get what He wants.... Or....
Maybe what John Gill has to say will clarify things for you, neighbor:

Your friend John Gill doesn't accept the bible.


However, I was hoping for your opinion.

 

[bradfordl]

Your friend John Gill doesn't accept the bible.


However, I was hoping for your opinion.

My brother John Gill is vastly more accepting of the truth of scripture than any popish parishioner ever dreamt of being. Rather silly to hear someone who must carve out whole books of scripture and swallow whole whales of sophistry to remain in good standing with their popery indict John Gill on whether he accepts the bible or not. How would you recognize acceptance of the bible, considering it must be a completely foreign concept to you?

Gill's opinion is one I share, but he does a far better job of expressing it than I, hence the quote.

If you need these things clarified for you, why don't you ring up your popish man-god and ask his opinion? His infallible answer would resolve it all for you, and you'd have no need to bother any Christians over the matter.

 

[chestertonrules]

My brother John Gill is vastly more accepting of the truth of scripture than any popish parishioner ever dreamt of being. Rather silly to hear someone who must carve out whole books of scripture and swallow whole whales of sophistry to remain in good standing with their popery indict John Gill on whether he accepts the bible or not. How would you recognize acceptance of the bible, considering it must be a completely foreign concept to you?

Gill's opinion is one I share, but he does a far better job of expressing it than I, hence the quote.

If you need these things clarified for you, why don't you ring up your popish man-god and ask his opinion? His infallible answer would resolve it all for you, and you'd have no need to bother any Christians over the matter.

Brilliant rebuttal!

Since you are incapable of defending your man made doctrine using the bible, perhaps brother Gill can lie his way around these as well!


- James 2:20 "Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?"

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

 

[bradfordl]

Perhaps you should be posting all this in the debate a calvinist forum.

 

[chestertonrules]

Perhaps you should be posting all this in the debate a calvinist forum.

Perhaps you should read the bible before spewing anti biblical attacks on other Christians.

 

[Canuckmom]

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


Why aren't all men saved?

Why aren't all men saved??
If you think God wants all men saved but it is clear He does not do so, is He a weak god that can't go against man's "free will" Or does He not care?

 

[chestertonrules]

Why aren't all men saved??
If you think God wants all men saved but it is clear He does not do so, is He a weak god that can't go against man's "free will" Or does He not care?

In my opinion, God wants all men to be saved, but he won't force us to follow him. He chooses to give us freedom, but he gives a desire for him.

We may seek his grace, which pleases him, or reject him, which does not.

 

[BBAS 64]

In my opinion, God wants all men to be saved, but he won't force us to follow him. He chooses to give us freedom, but he gives a desire for him.

We may seek his grace, which pleases him, or reject him, which does not.

Good Day,

As Paul right said there is non that seeks after God...

So "may seek" is defacto impossible because none "do", a falacy really.

In Him,

Bill

 

[bradfordl]

In my opinion, God wants all men to be saved, but he won't force us to follow him. He chooses to give us freedom, but he gives a desire for him.

We may seek his grace, which pleases him, or reject him, which does not.

Your god is then a monster who willfully gives a little, but evidently not enough for the majority, of a desire in men's hearts for them to get for themselves salvation. If it is that he gives an equal amount to all, and the deciding factor is something therefore that lies within one and not the other of the saved and the reprobate, then your god is definitely not the God of the bible:

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

There is no "forcing" involved. All are under the sentence of death. That God has in His unfathomable mercy ordained to rescue by His own Arm, by the Blood of His beloved Son, a remnant for Himself out of the fetid sin-swamp of humanity is not a matter of any merit due the wretched lot who make up His Church. It is all of His grace. Those who have been rescued from the terrifying justice they deserve do not need to be 'forced' to run for the Exit, they do so willingly.

One distinction between our faiths comes down to what we believe it is that differentiates between the saved and the lost. Christians say that distinction is something different that God has worked in us. You say it is something intrinsically and independently found within oneself, which is rooted in one of the earliest heresies, pelagianism. This is not the Gospel.

Man is not in any way capable of himself to do anything good, of which faith in Christ would emminently be included. None righteous; not one.

 

[Beoga]

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


Why aren't all men saved?

He doesn't want all men to be saved, because if He did, all men would be saved because the Lord does whatever He pleases.
"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."-Psalms 135:6
The context refers to all kinds of men, not just certain type of man.

 

[UMP]

Brilliant rebuttal!

Since you are incapable of defending your man made doctrine using the bible, perhaps brother Gill can lie his way around these as well!


- James 2:20 "Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?"

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Mmm, which makes you wonder what these guys did wrong.

Matthew 7:
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Food for thought Mr. rules, at the very least, indeed !

 

[DeaconDean]

What we have here, is, failure ta communicate!

​

Due to the fact that the OP is not Calvinist, and the likelyhood this could turn into an all out debate anyway, I have moved this to the Debate section.

Now, please remember the rules.

Everybody keep a civil tone.

No using this as an excuse to proselize.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.​

 

[heymikey80]

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Why aren't all men saved?

Are you saying all men aren't saved as Paul intended to be understood by this passage? It's what the Greek says, so that's what's going to happen.

Gill happens to have one idea that actually makes this Scripture true. Do you happen to have one?

Would it even be plausible that God's want is going to be thwarted by a mere human's want?

 

[heymikey80]

Brilliant rebuttal!

Since you are incapable of defending your man made doctrine using the bible, perhaps brother Gill can lie his way around these as well!


- James 2:20 "Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?"

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

That's quite a skitter away from your original question. I'd propose some remedies I've already described:

Paul is being more expansive with his wording. Not less.

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior Titus 3:4-6
​

To me Paul's not obsessed with works because of Mosaic legalism. He's obsessed with Mosaic legalism because it introduces works.

Abraham didn't have Moses.

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:2-5
​

James 2 has already set the stage for showing what we rely on:

Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Jas 2:18
​

So James reiterates the visibility of justification because of works:

You observe that faith was active along with his works, and faith reaching its goal by his works 2:22
You observe that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 2:24
​

For the John 6 passage, why would Jesus turn just ten verses later and say, "The Spirit gives life. These words are Spirit" if He were talking about His flesh and blood being the cause? "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all." Jn 6:63

 

[Beoga]

Would it even be plausible that God's want is going to be thwarted by a mere human's want?

Yeah, because human "free will" is more important than God's wants/desires....

 

[DocNH]

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


Why aren't all men saved?

If God desired all men to be saved - who could stop him? None can stay his hand (Dan. 4:35). Since many are not chosen (Matt. 22:14), either God is not sovereign or the text is being improperly understood out of its context. If God is not sovereign – then none could be saved – for he would not have all power to save them. Nor, could the Christian have confidence in his salvation – but even Paul the author of 1 Timothy has confidence (Rom. 8:35-39). So, that leaves the later.

In context:

1 Tim 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The text is rather clear if it remains within its context. The term “all” in this context means “all kinds of men” even “kings” and those “in authority” (who were persecuting the church at this time). Unlike Christ, who prayed for the elect – since he knew whom they were (John 17:9, 19, et. al.), we pray for “all” without exception understanding that only those who God predestined, will be called, justified, glorified, (Rom. 8:30) etc. Thus, God desires, in harmony with His eternal decree, to save all men without distinction (i.e., without respect to rank, station, race, or nationality) and bring them to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Doc

Well done!!

Are you really in NH?

In Him,

Bill

 

[DocNH]

Good Day, Doc

Well done!!

Are you really in NH?

In Him,

Bill

NH does not stand for a state, in this particular case, but thanks for asking.