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If God loves us why is all reality an illusion?

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wonderkins

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Just because you don't understand something in the Bible, that doesn't make t false. A verse I was recently reminded of is in Ecclesiastes:

Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things. (Ecclesiastes 11:5, NASB)

Job 38 is another great reminder of how little we actually know when it comes to God.

What about in Joshua 10 when God made the sun stand still for a day ao the Israelites could win the battle?

Confessing to God that you struggle with a passage is not the same thing as calling him a liar. But you called him a liar when you accused God of deceiving everybody.
 
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Tayla

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Judges send people to prison based on data gathered about past events. It is the only thing available to us. We don't have time machines.
Yes, and how often are innocent people judged guilty from evidence based on past events?
 
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Kenny'sID

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I've tried very hard to find a way to reason around this but there is no way it is true unless this is intended to be poetic.

God creating it at all is magnificent enough, so to think he did it in 7 days is only a minor and very believable detail the way I see it. :)
 
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Serving Zion

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It starts from the very beginning of the Bible where it describes the creation of the Earth in 7 literal days. I've tried very hard to find a way to reason around this but there is no way it is true unless this is intended to be poetic. "There was evening and there was morning" cannot be an accurate description of reality unless the writer received visions of a single day in between vast expanses of time. That would be totally rational. Or perhaps all of time is happening at once and the writer is trying to describe "God time" but a human can only understand it sequentially so he mentally divides it into 7 evenings and mornings witnessed in the vision. That is also very reasonable.

I do not have enough of a background in history or ancient literature to understand this style of writing. If it is meant to be a purely literal read then there is no hope...the Bible is either an ancient fairy tale or God is a deceiver (not supported by scripture). I would prefer not to jump to either conclusion but....

Let's assume that Chapter 1 really is intended to be a literal description of reality over the course of a single week. Why would God make it totally impossible for us to verify this? 100% of evidence in nature supports an old Earth. Only people with zero scientific training or highly dishonest former scientists will say otherwise. So it would prove that God is a deceiver only out to test for blind faith. He would trick our eyes with such intensity that only those who can somehow get locked into psychological confirmation bias will be able to find salvation.

This is NOT consistent with the rest of the Bible. God does not create FAKE universes to test the faith of humanity. That is an incredibly cruel thing to do. Salvation is already difficult even if you don't have to question the accuracy of the Bible.

I don't know where to go with this. We cannot prove without a doubt that Genesis had poetic elements. There is no disclaimer at the bottom of the ancient text stating "this is a poem yall!". The author's intentions are mysterious. The only thing that we can determine with certainty is that God is described as the creator. If that was the ONLY intention for that passage then we are in the clear for all of this. The Bible is not required to give a detailed account of all creation. An abbreviated summary finished off with evening-morning period divider would work just fine but there is no way to know if this was intended.

If God loves us why can't he at least make chapter 1 a bit easier? Don't you think it is pretty essential to start off on the correct footing if you want someone to believe that Jesus died and came back to life to save your soul?

Note:
I have no idea what part of the forum this should go in but my faith is pretty weak so I'm putting it here
Hey bro, I have just two pieces of info to help you today, plus can I remind you of Matthew 13:24-30? Just stay patient - ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find. This is the last hour, and we know it is the last hour because many antichrists have come. They went out from us so that it can be made manifest that they were not of us.

Now, the two pieces of info are this: in Genesis 1, the original writing does not say "it was finished on day one", "it was finished on day two", "it was finished on day three", etc. It says that on the first day, God was ..., on the second day He was ..., on the third day, ... etc. I have attached a really good little article that I found on CF a while back, that I share quite a bit, so I made it into a pdf that can be printed as a little four-page booklet.

The other thing is, more directly what you asked, consider John 11:6-10. There's a spiritual concept of day and night, light and dark, just as there is spiritual concept of sheep and shepherds, mountains and trees etc. People's behaviours are essentially spiritual, so when we see that all the people are in good spirits, it's easy to walk around without stumbling. When we see that people are grouchy all around, it is more likely that something can go wrong (Proverbs 29:11). Thus, the greater light rules in the daytime, whereas the lesser light rules the night time. Crave for the pure spiritual milk (Hebrews 5:11-14).
 

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Inkfingers

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It starts from the very beginning of the Bible where it describes the creation of the Earth in 7 literal days. I've tried very hard to find a way to reason around this but there is no way it is true unless this is intended to be poetic. "There was evening and there was morning" cannot be an accurate description of reality unless the writer received visions of a single day in between vast expanses of time. That would be totally rational. Or perhaps all of time is happening at once and the writer is trying to describe "God time" but a human can only understand it sequentially so he mentally divides it into 7 evenings and mornings witnessed in the vision. That is also very reasonable.

I do not have enough of a background in history or ancient literature to understand this style of writing. If it is meant to be a purely literal read then there is no hope...the Bible is either an ancient fairy tale or God is a deceiver (not supported by scripture). I would prefer not to jump to either conclusion but....

Let's assume that Chapter 1 really is intended to be a literal description of reality over the course of a single week. Why would God make it totally impossible for us to verify this? 100% of evidence in nature supports an old Earth. Only people with zero scientific training or highly dishonest former scientists will say otherwise. So it would prove that God is a deceiver only out to test for blind faith. He would trick our eyes with such intensity that only those who can somehow get locked into psychological confirmation bias will be able to find salvation.

This is NOT consistent with the rest of the Bible. God does not create FAKE universes to test the faith of humanity. That is an incredibly cruel thing to do. Salvation is already difficult even if you don't have to question the accuracy of the Bible.

I don't know where to go with this. We cannot prove without a doubt that Genesis had poetic elements. There is no disclaimer at the bottom of the ancient text stating "this is a poem yall!". The author's intentions are mysterious. The only thing that we can determine with certainty is that God is described as the creator. If that was the ONLY intention for that passage then we are in the clear for all of this. The Bible is not required to give a detailed account of all creation. An abbreviated summary finished off with evening-morning period divider would work just fine but there is no way to know if this was intended.

If God loves us why can't he at least make chapter 1 a bit easier? Don't you think it is pretty essential to start off on the correct footing if you want someone to believe that Jesus died and came back to life to save your soul?

Note:
I have no idea what part of the forum this should go in but my faith is pretty weak so I'm putting it here

Those who take Genesis literally have to explain how Jesus was literally small and woolly and went "baaa" (ie: literally a lamb).

Genesis as literal does not work. Genesis as poetry superbly displays how we sin because we rebel from God and that this divides us from paradise.
 
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Sanoy

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First I would like to that you do matter, because Christ died for you while you were a sinner.

I would like to also stress how important ViaCrucis post is to the problems you list.

Genesis definitely has poetic elements regarding temple building. Journal Article. It's a very short article if you skip the footnotes.

Genesis 1 doesn't even list a day for the creation of the world, so old/young earth isn't even a theological discussion. It is an established fact that Yom has a broad meaning, so 7 literal days is one interpretation among many. You know I actually take it more literally than anyone else. The difference is I take it literal to the text rather than literal to acquired tradition. When taken word for word there is nothing actually in conflict with mainstream science. If you are interested in that I have linked a paper I worked on but never finished, but it covers Genesis 1.

(If anyone likes the paper, feel free to use it without giving credit, but it hasn't been proofread for grammar or find tuned. It is unfinished.)
 
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Denadii

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It starts from the very beginning of the Bible where it describes the creation of the Earth in 7 literal days. I've tried very hard to find a way to reason around this but there is no way it is true unless this is intended to be poetic. "There was evening and there was morning" cannot be an accurate description of reality unless the writer received visions of a single day in between vast expanses of time. That would be totally rational. Or perhaps all of time is happening at once and the writer is trying to describe "God time" but a human can only understand it sequentially so he mentally divides it into 7 evenings and mornings witnessed in the vision. That is also very reasonable.

I do not have enough of a background in history or ancient literature to understand this style of writing. If it is meant to be a purely literal read then there is no hope...the Bible is either an ancient fairy tale or God is a deceiver (not supported by scripture). I would prefer not to jump to either conclusion but....

Let's assume that Chapter 1 really is intended to be a literal description of reality over the course of a single week. Why would God make it totally impossible for us to verify this? 100% of evidence in nature supports an old Earth. Only people with zero scientific training or highly dishonest former scientists will say otherwise. So it would prove that God is a deceiver only out to test for blind faith. He would trick our eyes with such intensity that only those who can somehow get locked into psychological confirmation bias will be able to find salvation.

This is NOT consistent with the rest of the Bible. God does not create FAKE universes to test the faith of humanity. That is an incredibly cruel thing to do. Salvation is already difficult even if you don't have to question the accuracy of the Bible.

I don't know where to go with this. We cannot prove without a doubt that Genesis had poetic elements. There is no disclaimer at the bottom of the ancient text stating "this is a poem yall!". The author's intentions are mysterious. The only thing that we can determine with certainty is that God is described as the creator. If that was the ONLY intention for that passage then we are in the clear for all of this. The Bible is not required to give a detailed account of all creation. An abbreviated summary finished off with evening-morning period divider would work just fine but there is no way to know if this was intended.

If God loves us why can't he at least make chapter 1 a bit easier? Don't you think it is pretty essential to start off on the correct footing if you want someone to believe that Jesus died and came back to life to save your soul?

Note:
I have no idea what part of the forum this should go in but my faith is pretty weak so I'm putting it here
1 God does not follow the Julian calendar...He follows the Hebrew calendar....or rather the Hebrews follow His. A day is from sundown to sundown.

2 Just to keep it simple... Six days was six days...Consecutive. God is not a man who needs millions or billions of years to create a world...He speaks it and it is.

3 Genesis 1:3 to Genesis 1:31 was not the first time God made the earth. What you read in these verses was not God creating the world, but God rebuilding it....He created it in vs 1 of chapter 1

What do you mean when you say salvation is difficult?
And I also do not understand what you mean when you say there is evidence aplenty that the Earth is old...Which it is.....Are you thinking of the teaching that the Earth is only six thousand years old? That a teaching based on the age of man on the Earth...
I believe that your confusion is a result of faulty teaching and a misunderstanding of the Word.
 
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DarkSoul999

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I don't think it's fair to say that the scientists promoting young earth creationism have no training. Also, events in the past cannot be verified experimentally so all knowledge about them is obtained via circumstantial evidence. In other words, if you can construct a story that explains it, then you can claim it is scientific. All of old earth geology and evolution seems like this. They assume it's true then make up stories that seem to fit.

The entire YEC "argument" consists of asking open ended questions "how did something come from nothing?" and "how did consciousness come from non-consciousness?" and then THREATENING ANYONE WITH DAMNATION if they attempt to answer those questions. I have never ever met a young Earth creationist who was genuinely interested in going through a textbook/journal and trying to figure out what it is saying.

They have no training in anything other than political/psychological warfare. Christianity in the west is often treated as an EXCLUSIVE CLUB for people with exactly the right thoughts and personal characteristics. You hate anyone who doesn't think exactly as you do.
 
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DarkSoul999

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The Holy Spirit is still working beyond our logic.
The mighty miracle of the Holy Spirit of Jesus

To understand about God we need to live in humility and forgiving hearts for many many years.

It is rare to get two Christians in the same room who believe exactly the same things about the Bible.

The Holy Spirit does NOT affect your mind automatically. I'm not entirely sure what it (he) does but perhaps the process is symbiotic. The person needs to figure things out to just the right extent in order to speak in the proper "language" with the Holy Spirit.
 
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DarkSoul999

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Wow. Stop with the self loathing and internet outrage. It doesn't sound at all like you're looking for answers to anything.

If by God's grace you are truly seeking him, start with the gospel of John. Follow that with Romans. Look for a biblical bible believing church and talk with the pastor.

But, you attack anyone who says what you don't want to hear. You don't even believe the first chapter of the Bible. What will you do when you make it to the axe head floating? Or the flood? Or Balaam's donkey? Or the descriptions of end time events in Ezekiel, Zachariah, Daniel, Matthew, revelations, and anywhere else? Genesis 1 is the least of your worries.

But one thing you absolutely should not do is stand in judgment of God's word while calling him a liar.

You did not even bother to read through my post. You already decided the moment you clicked on it that I was an enemy of God who simply needs to drop dead.
 
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DarkSoul999

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Huh? How does that follow? :scratch:

I would encourage you to start attending some kind of denominational church, and to focus on Jesus, rather than on exactly how God created the universe.

I can't just walk into a local church and start revealing my thoughts. If they find out that I don't have exactly the correct thoughts to be a member of the club then there is no telling what they will do.

Just look at this very thread. Christians want me hanged from the highest tree...

whatever I'm used to it. Been hated my entire life.
 
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DarkSoul999

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Who are you to God? Are you his counselor? Do you speak to him in his ear? Do you tell him what lies in the heart of man? Do you watch him and make sure he is doing his job right?

HE IS GOD!!!!

Give glory to the Lord God. Repent or perish. Seek him. He is able to save you! Nothing is too much for him. Stop making your problems bigger than him.

For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him. ~2 Chronicles 16:9

Who are you to God? Do you think that you are better than me?

You are just as messed up as me. You need Grace just as much. But it probably makes you feel pretty good to snub your nose and laugh at people who are in a place of pain.

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people-robbers, evildoers, adulterers-or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." (Luke 18:9-14)
 
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DarkSoul999

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Well we can talk like adults or you can continue to attack me. Your choice.
When did you get your mind-reading skills? MY easy life? Are you interested?

What is causing your torment? What do you need to help you?
There is hope...and you have enough of it that you began this thread.... God loves you. But you must come to Him and trust Him before you will avoid that burning pit. The fact that you are concerned means He is drawing you to Him.
Nothing else matters until you accept the GIFT Jesus' payment for sin ... and believe that He resurrected and lives so that you (and me) can live eternally with Him.

Do you talk to God (even in anger?_ that's ok He can handle it and says, "Come let us reason together.")

God sent a curse in the form of yourself

Leave me alone
 
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Radagast

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I can't just walk into a local church and start revealing my thoughts.

I was thinking that you should walk into a local church and have the pastor of that church explain the Bible to you.

Because, quite frankly, I don't think you're understanding it all correctly.

If you look at what the New Testament says, needing the Scriptures to be explained is the usual situation.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If they find out that I don't have exactly the correct thoughts to be a member of the club then there is no telling what they will do.

If it's a healthy, ordinary, mainstream church, the most likely scenario is that they'll listen to your thoughts in a respectful way, and try and answer your questions to the best of their ability.

Most clergy aren't ruthless fanatics eager to wage war against the "heathen", they're just pastors.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DarkSoul999

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If it's a healthy, ordinary, mainstream church, the most likely scenario is that they'll listen to your thoughts in a respectful way, and try and answer your questions to the best of their ability.

Most clergy aren't ruthless fanatics eager to wage war against the "heathen", they're just pastors.

-CryptoLutheran

90% on this forum are ruthless fanatics. Sorry to say it
 
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ViaCrucis

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90% on this forum are ruthless fanatics. Sorry to say it

CF doesn't necessarily fairly represent the reality of the Christian mainstream.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DarkSoul999

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CF doesn't necessarily fairly represent the reality of the Christian mainstream.

-CryptoLutheran

The internet is safer. If I meet a religious fanatic in real life they might burn my house down.

So it is lose-lose either way....
 
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Simply replying to the title alone, reality is not an illusion but what you are experiencing now is. You are not currently experiencing reality at all. God did not create your delusions, you did because your parents were also lost in their own delusional worlds. Who you think you are now, which does not exist in reality, has no idea what reality is.

Only when you have and can forgive anyone for anything would you possibly be able to begin to see what is real because in the state of eternal reality everything is always forgiven, its a law which now as a human you are choosing not to follow, effectively causing a total blindness. Anything that is not eternal does not exist, that's how you know what is and isn't real.

1 Corinthians 2:14
 
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Hawkins

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Doing all that in 7 days real time would mean that all the light waves from space and DNA were scrambled like a shell game and that the behavior of atoms and subatomic particles were deliberately altered so our past would be completely untraceable.

Why would God want the Bible to be the ONLY record? He wouldn't do that unless he wants blind faith. I will fail that test...I'm doomed if that is the test. I've never been able to believe anything blindly.

It's literal to humans especially to ancient humans. However it is based on the fact that humans even today don't know exactly what time is. Human conception about time is proved to be mistaken or incomplete by science. In science such as quantum physics, time is more like a delusion. Einstein ever put that time is not a stable physics unit, instead speed is. It is because the relative speed of light is absolute that both time and space will "give way" to facilitate such an absolute. This behavior of time/space however is completely out of any human conception, as humans will treat time as stably and evenly advancing forward.

Earth is for God to provide a fair environment for humans to make a choice. Humans here will be assessed (judged) to see if they can live with God and His angels in a forever realm which we call Heaven. It's not a deception but a necessity instead.
 
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