If God is omnipotent, why can't He smite the devil?

[Davebuck]

There's actually a fallacy there. To say God cannot best Himself sounds like He can't do something, but in reality, it's saying He cannot be bested. So it sounds like a contradiction where really there is none. Good try, though; very clever.

Another way to remove the contradiction is to assume that nothing is omnipotent. There is no logical reason to assume a priori that such a thing should exist. In fact, such a thing seems illogical and unlikely.

 

[Davebuck]

But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.

 

[oworm]

That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.

So what would you say morality is then?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Another way to remove the contradiction is to assume that nothing is omnipotent. There is no logical reason to assume a priori that such a thing should exist. In fact, such a thing seems illogical and unlikely.

Well, we're not trying to "fix" it; we're trying to get at the truth. There were a couple of very intricate and complex hypothetical models about how the earth was at the center of the universe during Galileo's time. The scientists "made" it work, so to speak. But even thought they "made" it solve the contradictions, it wasn't the truth. What always wins is truth.

 

[Outspoken]

That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.

That is not what condemns them. they are already condemned by their sin. It condemns them because beleiving in Christ is their last chance for being saved. Thus if they refuse it, they are condemned. Context is a powerful thing. Oh...its not mean, its just the truth.

 

[Davebuck]

Well, we're not trying to "fix" it; we're trying to get at the truth. There were a couple of very intricate and complex hypothetical models about how the earth was at the center of the universe during Galileo's time. The scientists "made" it work, so to speak. But even thought they "made" it solve the contradictions, it wasn't the truth. What always wins is truth.

So, is the latest model the truth? or is it an approximation of the truth?

I'd say it'll always be an approximation and what counts is whether the model works best or not (pragmatism). Do you agree? Do you think you'll ever know where the center of our universe is or whether the earth indeed revolves around the sun?


And, you do admit that christians were among Galileo's biggest critiques because his model was contrary to the biblical model, correct?

 

[Davebuck]

So what would you say morality is then?

My basic assumption is that my life is the most important thing. Therefore, I also assume that other people's lives are the most important things to them. We have a right to live. So, I wouldn't kill someone (unless they were trying to take my life or the life of others).

Morality is respecting life and people's right to live and flourish.

How's that sound?

 

[Davebuck]

That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.

That is not what condemns them. they are already condemned by their sin. It condemns them because beleiving in Christ is their last chance for being saved. Thus if they refuse it, they are condemned. Context is a powerful thing. Oh...its not mean, its just the truth.

OK, so your logic is this--> Yaweh punished all humans by making them born with 'sin' and condemns them to die unless they believe Jesus is his son?

That is immoral by any standard. If you don't believe that then you have a different (lower) set of ethical standards then me.

I'd say folks who believe this is 'truth' need to reconscile this with the fact that they believe Yahweh is 'omni-benevolent'.

Sidenote: if someone is 'born with sin', then what is sin? I thought sin is something you think or do. What the hell does a baby think or do that is so horrible? But, don't let this sidetrack the main issue of my point, why condemn someone just because they don't believe you exist?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So, is the latest model the truth? or is it an approximation of the truth?

I'd say it'll always be an approximation and what counts is whether the model works best or not (pragmatism). Do you agree? Do you think you'll ever know where the center of our universe is or whether the earth indeed revolves around the sun?

You're kidding! This is the boldest and most entertaining argument I've heard in a while.

And, you do admit that christians were among Galileo's biggest critiques because his model was contrary to the biblical model, correct?

People who professed to be Christians were. But I would not say that these people were Christians. The sixth commandment. These people were a law unto themselves.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.

That's not mean. People hate God, and yet they expect Him to be a giant vending machine in the sky. God has a right to be believed because He is God and completely holy.

But what is missing here is, what do we do at God? Is that mean? He gives dies in their place and people reject this gift. That's not a gift to be taken lightly.

 

[Davebuck]

So, is the latest model the truth? or is it an approximation of the truth?

I'd say it'll always be an approximation and what counts is whether the model works best or not (pragmatism). Do you agree? Do you think you'll ever know where the center of our universe is or whether the earth indeed revolves around the sun?

You're kidding! This is the boldest and most entertaining argument I've heard in a while.

How so?

People who professed to be Christians were. But I would not say that these people were Christians. The sixth commandment. These people were a law unto themselves.

That's a cop-out to say they weren't christians. A christian is someone who believes jesus is the son of Yaweh. I'm sure they did. And, I'm sure they believed they were. Don't you think it a bit arrogant that you have some vision or ability to know the real path and they couldn't see it? And, if so, do you believe that your Yahweh created them that way or created a world where it was so difficult for them to understand it correctly. What gives?

AND, How would you feel about christians 100 years from now looking back on you and your beliefs and saying that you weren't a christian? I've heard that same statement made by contemporary Christians about crusading christians and slave owning christians. I'm sure we'll hear it about christians who are anti-gay. "Oh, they weren't real christians" they'll say.

Are those christians who believe dinosours and man walked the earth at the same time really christians?

 

[Davebuck]

That's not mean. People hate God, and yet they expect Him to be a giant vending machine in the sky. God has a right to be believed because He is God and completely holy.

Who hates Yahweh? Do you have any proof that people actively hate a god they believe in? If not, perhaps you were bearing false witness for some reason with that statement. (remember, it is absurd to think atheists hate this Yahweh because they don't believe he exists. it'd be like me saying you hate Zeus.

Name one person who hates your Yahweh or correct your statement.

But what is missing here is, what do we do at God? Is that mean? He gives dies in their place and people reject this gift. That's not a gift to be taken lightly.

?? Again, who hates him? I'm questioning your belief in this deity that supposedly kills people (many innocent people and first born kids to boot) and your belief that it isn't a mean thing to do. no matter how you look at it, your myth is about one mean god.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So, is the latest model the truth? or is it an approximation of the truth?

I'd say it'll always be an approximation and what counts is whether the model works best or not (pragmatism). Do you agree? Do you think you'll ever know where the center of our universe is or whether the earth indeed revolves around the sun?


How so?

Because of scientific evidence that has proven for hundreds of years that this isn't the case. So it's funny to see someone bring it up; kind of like arguing still that the world is flat.

That's a cop-out to say they weren't christians. A christian is someone who believes jesus is the son of Yaweh. I'm sure they did.

A Christian who believes that man is at the center of the universe and would kill anyone who said otherwise, in spite of the sixth commandment? If they aren't living, it, then how can they believe it? If they believed that, then they would have been submitted to what they believe.

And, I'm sure they believed they were.

What is the basis of your surety? "By their fruots you shall know them.

Don't you think it a bit arrogant that you have some vision or ability to know the real path and they couldn't see it? And, if so, do you believe that your Yahweh created them that way or created a world where it was so difficult for them to understand it correctly. What gives?

Oh, yes, The arrogance argument again. What I think is arrogant is for man to call God into judgment. Or to simply refuse to believe what God says about Himself. I think it's arrogant for man to try to be God, or play God. But you think I am arrogant for submitting to God and believing what He has to say. Hm.

AND, How would you feel about christians 100 years from now looking back on you and your beliefs and saying that you weren't a christian? I've heard that same statement made by contemporary Christians about crusading christians and slave owning christians. I'm sure we'll hear it about christians who are anti-gay. "Oh, they weren't real christians" they'll say.

Feelings cannot lead you to truth. Truth refers to what is, not how something feels. What makes me a Christian is whether or not I trust in Jesus Christ as both Savior...and LORD. I do. And my words and deeds testify to this. What does the Bible say about being gay? The problem is, you're attempting to take the authority away from God in favor of personal opinion and it just doesn't work, my friend. It doesn't work. The question is, what do we do once we know it doesn't work?

Are those christians who believe dinosours and man walked the earth at the same time really christians?

What does you Bible say about what a Christian is? That's where your answer is.

Blessings and peace.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Who hates Yahweh? Do you have any proof that people actively hate a god they believe in? If not, perhaps you were bearing false witness for some reason with that statement. (remember, it is absurd to think atheists hate this Yahweh because they don't believe he exists. it'd be like me saying you hate Zeus.

Do I have proof? Ask God that question.

Name one person who hates your Yahweh or correct your statement.

How about I do neither? How about I let God decide, and let my statement stand as the truth that it is? Yep-that's what I'll do.

?? Again, who hates him?

Isn't it a better practice to spread the love of God and remedy the situation through truth rather than demand something like this? You tell others not to judge, so why do you want a blacklist? That is between those people and God.

I'm questioning your belief in this deity that supposedly kills people (many innocent people and first born kids to boot) and your belief that it isn't a mean thing to do. no matter how you look at it, your myth is about one mean god.

Is it mean to abort children?

 

[Davebuck]

Do I have proof? Ask God that question.

By god, you mean the god named Yahweh, I presume. If so, then is there anyone you know who believes that Yahweh exists, hates him? I doubt it.

How about I do neither? How about I let God decide, and let my statement stand as the truth that it is? Yep-that's what I'll do.

You go ahead and believe what you wish. That's what everyone else has and does. Just don't go saying that folks hate this Yahweh thingy. You've never seen evidence of this nor does it make sense, especially if you are referring to me or atheists. How can you hate something you don't believe in?

I think that you use that phrase because it's easier for you to prove your points. I said that your story of your Yahweh dude portrays a nasty person and you bring up this idea of folks hating Yahweh. It's not a proper nor logical segue (unless it helps you swallow the whole story without really thinking much).

Isn't it a better practice to spread the love of God and remedy the situation through truth rather than demand something like this? You tell others not to judge, so why do you want a blacklist? That is between those people and God.

Love of which god? Yahweh, Zeus, Mithra, Ra, Thor, etc...? Each has equal amount of proof and history of full of people that 'knew' each was real. So, no, I don't think I want to waste time 'spreading the love'.

Secondly, I do judge. I judge the act of anyone killing humans as an immoral act. So, the stories of this Yahweh smiting away are stories about immoral acts. Don't you agree? Would you create plagues, floods, turn people into half animals/half human, turn folks to stone, have all first born males killed, destroy giant cities, create a place where people burn for eternity if they go there, etc...?

Is it mean to abort children?

A conservative estimate is that 66% of all pregnancies sponaneosly abort. Whose fault is that? No one's. (although, somefolks say it is Yahweh's will or some supernatural fatalistic explanation.) Either way, it happens. But, if I were trying to have a kid, I'd use every bit of scientific knowledge to prevent spontaneos abortions from happening.

That said, given the evidence of blastula, embriotic, and fetal development, I do not believe that the fetus or previous stages are 'children' within the first trimester and part of the second trimester. Thus I believe it is ok for the mother to choose to abort the fetus at this stage. And, if my wife would be in danger due to the pregnacy and abortion was the only solution, I must have that choice. I love no one more than my wife.

Now, to you, is it immoral to stone children to death? Yes or no?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Well, if you think these just make my arguments easier, then certainly you can disprove them quite easily through reason. Go ahead.

That's convenient. If a person wants the child, then it is a child, but if they don't want it, the person's desire has the magical ability to make the preborn child a non-child. And beforehand I guess they're just miniature fluffs of cotton candy until parental desire breathes a human soul into their little bodies.

And therefore, apparently the conclusion is that God is wrong for doing as He wishes with those who do not live according to His very holy laws, and then also reject His generous offer of forgiveness. (This forgiveness procured by His taking the beatings on His own back for sins He didn't commit.) But people can kill their preborn children by simply saying they're not children after all.

 

[Davebuck]

Because of scientific evidence that has proven for hundreds of years that this isn't the case. So it's funny to see someone bring it up; kind of like arguing still that the world is flat.

I brought it up because of the talk that science is faulty. But, I see you don't have that belief. As I understand it, you believe the statement about the position of earth due to scientific evidence. Then we have the same use for science. But, others on this forum disagree. Glad to see you're on my side.

A Christian who believes that man is at the center of the universe and would kill anyone who said otherwise, in spite of the sixth commandment? If they aren't living, it, then how can they believe it? If they believed that, then they would have been submitted to what they believe.

Ok, how about a christian who believes it's ok to stone someone to death if they work on the sabbath? OR, do you break commandments yet believe? If so, are you christian sometimes and sometimes not? And, are babies christian?

More importantly, how about just doing good. That seems like the best route. Who cares what god people believe in or if they believe in no god. There are TONS of very good secular humanists who live extremely moral lives yet don't believe. But, I don't know you so perhaps you have no beef with others. If so, that's cool.

What is the basis of your surety? "By their fruots you shall know them.

Man, like I said, there are tons of nice folks who aren't christian (yet their 'fruits' might make you think they were by your standards). ANd, look at the tons and tons of interpretations of how christians should act. It changes every generation. I think it is strange that each generation thinks they know the christian way better than the previous (yet they so many of them think the world keeps getting worse and worse). Its just odd!

Oh, yes, The arrogance argument again. What I think is arrogant is for man to call God into judgment. Or to simply refuse to believe what God says about Himself. I think it's arrogant for man to try to be God, or play God. But you think I am arrogant for submitting to God and believing what He has to say. Hm.

I'm not calling any 'god' into judgment because I haven't seen any evidence that these things exist any more than bigfoot or the boogey monster. I'm just saying that your stories of Yahweh smiting away and tons of other scripture are just lewd. But, I maintain, it is arrogant to think YOU know the truth and all the other folks didn't. Come on. It's possible that some of them have it right and you have it wrong. Or, maybe no one has it right and future generation will really get it right.

Feelings cannot lead you to truth.

agreed!

Truth refers to what is, not how something feels.

Agreed.

What makes me a Christian is whether or not I trust in Jesus Christ as both Savior...and LORD. I do. And my words and deeds testify to this. What does the Bible say about being gay?

What does the bible say about mixing different kinds of fabric for you clothes? It says it's an abomination. What does it say about owning slaves? What does it say about lots of stuff? There are tons of stuff it says which are just ridiculous. How about using critical thinking instead? It doesn't hurt anyone if same sex folks want to marry. You don't have to like it but let it be.

The problem is, you're attempting to take the authority away from God in favor of personal opinion and it just doesn't work, my friend. It doesn't work. The question is, what do we do once we know it doesn't work?

Nope, I don't think there is a thor, Yahweh etc... so there is no authority to take away. And, it works just fine. our constitution and bill of rights is purposely secular (not based on the 10 commandments or biblical scripture. It works just fine.

Only from your theistic perspecitive does it seem like i'm taking authority away from a deity. If one existed, the authority couldn't be taken away.

What does you Bible say about what a Christian is? That's where your answer is.

From my read, the popes were christians, Martin Luther and his followers were christian, Jim Bakker and Tammy Fay were Christians, Mother Teresa was christian, Martin Luther King Jr. was a christian, Hitler was a christian, Joan of Arc (if she existed) was a christian, George Bush and some of his generals are christians, Bill Clinton was a christian, those folks who did the crusades were christians, slave owners were christians, Oral Roberts and Jessie Jackson are christians, that dude that shot the abortion doctor was christian, 95% of prisoners are christians, and, if they existed, all of the apostles/disciples were christians.

Or, is it more strict? That is, are you only a christian if you abandon everything including your family to follow Jesus's teachings, according to the bible?

-dave

 

[Davebuck]

That's convenient. If a person wants the child, then it is a child, but if they don't want it, the person's desire has the magical ability to make the preborn child a non-child. And beforehand I guess they're just miniature fluffs of cotton candy until parental desire breathes a human soul into their little bodies.

I don't think there is such a thing as a 'soul'. We are biological things. What makes us important is being thinking, living, breathing humans. the little fluff is not yet human. It is not the same to lose a fetus then it is to lose a child that has seen you and you've seen it. (Not to say that it's easy to lose a fetus, it is INCREDABLY horrible if you were looking forward to raising a child. I truly understand this, trust me).
But, we're getting off topic, the point was about the mean acts of this Yahweh fellow. Do you finally concede that they are just plain immoral? Were you trying to change the subject to avoid answering?

And therefore, apparently the conclusion is that God is wrong for doing as He wishes with those who do not live according to His very holy laws, and then also reject His generous offer of forgiveness. (This forgiveness procured by His taking the beatings on His own back for sins He didn't commit.) But people can kill their preborn children by simply saying they're not children after all.

I don't believe some 'god' is aborting those pregnancies. They just happen. But, if you believe in an all-powerful god like you do, it is logical to assume that this god of yours is ending the pregnancy. I guess if such a god existed, I wouldn't have a beef with that since they aren't children yet. It's not like he'd be killing a 2 month old baby or a teen-ager. That'd be immoral by anyone's standard, no?

Say, regarding this bit about 'sins he didn't commit'...don't you guys believe that Yahweh punished Adam and eve by making all their offspring to be 'born with sin'. He decided on this punishment so if he wants to take 'the beatings on his own back' he ought to. ANd, watching a child suffer on a cross is HORRIBLE, there are even worse sacrifices. Supposedly Yahweh's kid is up in heavan with him and has been there just a few days after death. What about all those parents who lost several kids to war or cancer or those who had to choose which would live or die in Nazi concentration camps and then NEVER see them again? Those are much worse sacrifices, no?

Come on, can't you think of some worse things or a better idea of a god than the biblical one?

-dave

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I brought it up because of the talk that science is faulty. But, I see you don't have that belief. As I understand it, you believe the statement about the position of earth due to scientific evidence. Then we have the same use for science. But, others on this forum disagree. Glad to see you're on my side.

Actually, I make much finer discernments than this. The question isn't whether science is right or wrong; it's, is science right or wrong about a certain thing. The question is, what is true?

Ok, how about a christian who believes it's ok to stone someone to death if they work on the sabbath? OR, do you break commandments yet believe? If so, are you christian sometimes and sometimes not? And, are babies christian?

That would depend on God's law. Since Jesus fulfilled the law with His sacrifice, this is no longer our practice.

The asnwer to your second question is, what is in their hearts? Peter was a man of God and failed. The Pharisees were not men of GOd. Let me ask you to reason something for me. What do you think the difference was? (Either way I'll answer your question, but I'd like to give you an opportunity to see if you can first.)

More importantly, how about just doing good. That seems like the best route. Who cares what god people believe in or if they believe in no god. There are TONS of very good secular humanists who live extremely moral lives yet don't believe. But, I don't know you so perhaps you have no beef with others. If so, that's cool.

Because the judgment is a reality. And people need to know about it. If you saw someone fishing in toxic waters, and you knew they could get cancer, would you say something? Or would you fear they would be angry if you did and just let them fish?

It would be absolutely heartless to see someone on the road to eternal judgment and say nothing. It's up to them what they decide, but if they fall into God's wrath, it isn't because I didn't say something. Love tells the truth.

Man, like I said, there are tons of nice folks who aren't christian (yet their 'fruits' might make you think they were by your standards).

Well, wait a minute. It isn't being a nice person that gets us into heaven. Take a nice person like that and ask them if they know Jesus as their Lord and Savior. That nice veneer will crack immeditely, even though you're giving them the greatest act of love you could.

Moreover, God holds us to the standard of His law, the standard of perfection. And every one of us is fallen short. It's liek the proverbial necklace that has a few links missing. It's still gold, but you can't wear it and the recipient would find that a most curious (and probably insulting) gift. But the best of our deeds are filled with self-interest, pride, and sin. The question regarding fruit is, do they live according to what God says? Not, "Are they being nice?"

ANd, look at the tons and tons of interpretations of how christians should act. It changes every generation. I think it is strange that each generation thinks they know the christian way better than the previous (yet they so many of them think the world keeps getting worse and worse). Its just odd!

The truth never changes. The question is, how pure is our search for truth? And people grow in their knowledge. And some have preconceived ideas and try to fit scripture according to that. And there are a number of people who make determinations according to their feelings, not according to what is. So they import this. But, what does the Bible say? Who cares what any Christian says, if it doesn't match what God says. He's the One to worry about.

But, I maintain, it is arrogant to think YOU know the truth and all the other folks didn't. Come on. It's possible that some of them have it right and you have it wrong. Or, maybe no one has it right and future generation will really get it right.

And the interesting thing is, I'm the one who isn't concerned about what I think or feel, but what God thinks. Does this really make me arrogant? Or are you jealous?

What does the bible say about mixing different kinds of fabric for you clothes? It says it's an abomination.

These mixing of fibers symbolized something. It symbolized the mixing of God's chosen people with people who did not acknowledge God. This was a ceremonial law, that has been fulfilled in Christ. Let me ask you this: why do you suppose God no longer wishes us to separate materials? What would that signify?

What does it say about owning slaves? What does it say about lots of stuff? There are tons of stuff it says which are just ridiculous. How about using critical thinking instead? It doesn't hurt anyone if same sex folks want to marry. You don't have to like it but let it be.

I understand that you do not want to accept what the Bible says. But it doesn't make it any less true. Truth is not determined by our wishes or our feelings. It is determined by fact. There's a place for feelings. But determining truth is not it, because feelings are deceptive.

And yes, same sex marriage does hurt us. It hurts society. They want rights to something they do not have, it promotes that which is wrong and it prevents those people froem healing. They may have bad relationships with their faithers, they often have self-esteem issues and many are suicidal. They neeed to be healed, not applauded into their own hurt.

Nope, I don't think there is a thor, Yahweh etc... so there is no authority to take away. And, it works just fine. our constitution and bill of rights is purposely secular (not based on the 10 commandments or biblical scripture. It works just fine.

Really? And what is your proof of this? You have to know just from being a human being that it isn't our call to make. But in making this call,, it completely denigrates the true worth of a human being. Another of God's glorious paradoxes.

Only from your theistic perspecitive does it seem like i'm taking authority away from a deity. If one existed, the authority couldn't be taken away.

It isn't taken away, which is why there's a judgment. And this isn't a matter of perspective, but of truth. Deciding what feels good and right isn't a very accurate way of arriving at truth. You exist. This says something about God.

From my read, the popes were christians, Martin Luther and his followers were christian, Jim Bakker and Tammy Fay were Christians, Mother Teresa was christian, Martin Luther King Jr. was a christian, Hitler was a christian, Joan of Arc (if she existed) was a christian, George Bush and some of his generals are christians, Bill Clinton was a christian, those folks who did the crusades were christians, slave owners were christians, Oral Roberts and Jessie Jackson are christians, that dude that shot the abortion doctor was christian, 95% of prisoners are christians, and, if they existed, all of the apostles/disciples were christians.

Or, is it more strict? That is, are you only a christian if you abandon everything including your family to follow Jesus's teachings, according to the bible?

-dave

What does the Bible say about this? It says a lot. All over. You can't even give it a surface skim without knowing the truth about it. I think you need to discern.

 

[Davebuck]

You keep avoiding the questions. You aren't looking at the quality or validity of your beliefs and I understand that now.

You want me to provide evidence that Yahweh doesn't exist but you don't worry about evidence that all the other deities named throughout time don't exist AND you don't see the faulty reasoning here. If you make a claim that something exists, it's on you to back it up. I don't worry about your atheistic beliefs about other gods so don't worry about mine.

I'm not jealoous of you and I don't know what would give you that impression unless, perhaps it was a form of projection.

You now say that a bunch of the old testiment laws 'aren't in practice' yet you tell me to read the bible and see what it says is right or wrong (e.g., killing or homosexuality). You are inconsistent, which scares me only in that you're morality is thus, inconsistent and could end up harming those around you.

And, you have no problem with supernatural wrath being contradictory with omnibenevolence. You are blind.

Finally, while you probalby have big problems with slavery and laws against interracial marriage, you DO have a problem with same-sex marriages. Yet you don't see that passionate christians prayed over the issues long ago and 'in their hearts' they came to believe that the bible said slavory was ok and it was wrong for whites and black to marry.

I'll bet you that in not too long a time, the future generation will look at you and your anti-gay marriage belief as 'not truly christian or jesus-like'. My point about arrogance remains. How could it be that just this generation has the right ideas about christianity but the ones who stoned kids or had slaves or the future ones who say gay marriage is ok, are the ones who are wrong. How are they so inferior to you?

At this point, we should agree to disagree.