If God is omnipotent, why can't He smite the devil?

[Ferahgo-Under-God]

You're talking about an alleged future event...I'm speaking hypothetically in the present. If the devil was subdued for a period of time, would man then be completely loyal to God, never running astray from God's will etc?

This I cannot answer, as God has promised to put an end to the Devil once and for all, and it will not be temporary. If I had to say anything, I would say man would be without sin breifly, but if Satan's return was inevitable, I cannot be sure as it would throw the free-will thing out of wack.

 

[Lyle]

If God is omnipotent, why can't He just smite the devil and be done with it? Why do we have a devil? Is perhaps, the concept of A DEVIL, or THE DEVIL, a metaphor for something inside of each of us?

It uses two different illistrations for Satan, and our old nature, in the which Satan has been from the beginning and throughout the Old Testiment. it's more then a metaphor,he's quite real... Our old nature is who any Christian was without Christ. Their old desires, the lusts of the flesh, ect...

Why doesn't God smite the devil? Because He has a plan. Yes he can and will smite the devil one day and remove Him (using smiting as removing). But just because He doesn't doesn't mean He can't... Sure I CAN go shoot everyone that makesme mad, but I DON't. Does that mean that I CAN'T do it? No, neither ds the same apply with God......

 

[Davebuck]

Men have just the devil they want to have. God will not take from you that which you want.

I'm not read up on the complete works of the bible but isn't it also true that it says Yaweh will remove things if you asked? So, if someone prayed that the devil be vanquished, why wouldn't Yaweh do it?

 

[Davebuck]

I believe that the Devil does exist for a reason, it is free will. God loves us enough to let some (many actually) drift from Him, which pains Him severely, so that we do not live as slaves. If we were born into a world without sin, we would not be following God because we wanted to, or believed he created us because he loved us, we would believe because we were told to, and see Him as a slavemaster. In this sense, the Devil is necessary for as long as God allows us to live on this earth. That time is also necessary to give us a full understanding of evil, so that we may know what God truly feels for us.

Doesn't it make more sense for an all-powerful being to provide 'free will' without a devil.

That is, you can't use 'free-will' as a necessary argument for a devil to exist.

Clearly, there are many ways to understand 'evil' without there being a devil. Couldn't an omniscient god think of a way to do that? I mean, heck, I could think of better ways. How about create people a little smarter/logical to begin with? But I digress. There are plenty of cultures that seem to think they have a good grasp of the idea of 'evil' and they don't have the concept of a devil.

I'm surprised more xians haven't dropped the notion an actual satan. It seems to be clearly a metaphor to me. But, then again, I think that the majority of the bible is metaphorical.

 

[onionring]

How many Christians can say that they are never tempted or bothered by the Devil?

Not that Christians are not tempted or bothered by the devil. Rather the location of the devil during the temptation instance(s) [inside or ouside one's self].

I don't believe "flee from you" mean from inside you. The devil does not reside in you. Especially not, if you are a Christian (Christ lives in you). Rather he will flee from your pressence (and cease to tempt/bother you).

So to state "He is still in me." would seem to imply one of 2 things (in my opinion):
1) One is demon posession.
2) One still possess sinful-nature

Both of which, disallow for a Christianity claim.

 

[onionring]

I'm not read up on the complete works of the bible but isn't it also true that it says Yaweh will remove things if you asked? So, if someone prayed that the devil be vanquished, why wouldn't Yaweh do it?

I don't think God is like a magic lamp...just waiting to fulfill our wishes. I think He has a will of his own. So perhaps the question is not "can God", but "Why doesn't He?"

 

[Davebuck]

Yes he can and will smite the devil one day and remove Him (using smiting as removing). But just because He doesn't doesn't mean He can't... Sure I CAN go shoot everyone that makesme mad, but I DON't. Does that mean that I CAN'T do it? No, neither ds the same apply with God......

I don't buy this explanation because it doesn't jibe with other xian beliefs. Doesn't the bible list times when Yaweh smote all kinds of people he didn't like? Flood, Sodem and Gommorah, etc...

So, it's reasonable to ask, 'why didn't yaweh smote the devil?'.

The easy way out is to say, "we cannot know Yawah's master plan but he must have one and the devil is part of it I guess". But that is a cop out and not logical. The same logic could be used to support any belief.

A simpler explanation is, 'The biblical scriptures are just many different interpretations of peoples' old beliefs in the mythology of Yaweh and none should be taken as fact'. That certainly isn't a crazy thing to consider.

 

[onionring]

....
I'm surprised more xians haven't dropped the notion an actual satan. It seems to be clearly a metaphor to me. But, then again, I think that the majority of the bible is metaphorical.

If there is a Satan (and I believe that there is) this statement above is his mission statement. You cannot deal with what you do not believe in. Think about it. First step toward conquering anything is belief that it exist. 2nd would be understanding it. He wants neither for us.

Look at science. Gravity, the world being round, atoms...all things men first believed in some aspect of of it (at least enough to investigate). Then solidified that belief through further investigation. Man could never be where he is now with these small steps of faith.

Point being: metaphor is disblief, disbelief is an easy life for him (Satan).

Also, if Satan is a metaphor, then so then is everyone else addressed in the Bible by name. Moses, Abraham, Jesus...God. All where spoken about in direct terms (same as the devil). To believe Satan is a metaphor allows for that logic.

 

[Davebuck]

Also, if Satan is a metaphor, then so then is everyone else addressed in the Bible by name. Moses, Abraham, Jesus...God. All where spoken about in direct terms (same as the devil). To believe Satan is a metaphor allows for that logic.

I think this is reasonable logic. The flood or stories in genesis and many other things are believed to be metephorical or mythical. So, satan could be seen as a metaphor for basic human desires.

The message might be as simple as, "beware of some of your basic instinctual desires."

I mean, do you believe everything? Do you believe donkeys or snakes can talk? It's not crazy to think that there is no satan.

And, you can deal with the problems of bad behavior or evil without the concept of satan. The concept doesn't add or help anything.

 

[SolomonVII]

[/font]
Reason is the faculty by which we acquire knowledge. How else can we gather knowledge but through our senses? Rational demonstration is the process by which we verify our knowledge claims. Just because history may have practiced other philosophies lends nothing to the validity of those philosophies.

The traditional philosphical view of reason was not as limiting as the one that people adhere to today. It is evident to me at least that humans relate to the world in a variety of qualitatively different ways. Reality is revealed to us not just through our cognition, but through our emotions, or feelings, through our appreciation, or sense of taste, though what we strive for, and through our actions. Reason traditionally meant more than merely to attain scientific knowledge, and just because a feeling, for example, is outside of the realm of the scientific, does not mean that it cannot be rational.
To the extent that any culture excludes truth exclusively to the realm of empirical science, the consequences are appalling. The result will be a society with impressive technical capability, and a complete lack of conviction that anything is really worthwhile striving for.

[/font]
The question I would like answered is why then and not now? Doesn't seem to fair to me when an eternity of torment may be on the line... Or a million other punishments. Or are we supposed to live a way because our ancestors did? (see my signiture)

God's plan is that all will be saved. My focus will always be on the reality of my life, rather than upon the mystery of an afterlife. In terms of what has changed, I would suggest that it is the very success of science that has led to believe that only science holds the answers, and we relate to our world only through our five empirical senses. Because I cannot express the concept of "God" scientifically, must I therefore be embarrassed to express the related values that are the basis for my existence as a human being. Values, and a sense of self-worth transcend science and empiricism.

Good thing for Aquinas, seeing that his "proofs" don't hold up under scrutiny.

Good thing, indeed! Of course, strictly speaking it is not possible to prove anything, as the futile discussions between realists and phenomenenalists on this question demonstrate. Reality must manifests itself to us.

Maybe it does for the christian, but I feel that my life has value, that good exists, and that my life has purpose without a belief in god.

Exactly! You feel your life has value, and you know that your life has purpose.
These are nevertheless rational beliefs and they fall outside the realm of empirical discussion. And yet that are absolutely essential to our existence as sentient human beings. Likewise, 'good' exists for you because you understand that you are a moral human being, capable of moral choice. You hence must be more than just the sum of empirical physiological biochemical processes.
Empirical reasoning is important. But it is not all there is to being a rational being.
Just because one cannot believe in that God with a white beard who punishes bad people by sending them down to be tormented by a red devil with a pitchfork does not mean that there is no grounds for a belief in God. To speak of God is to speak of He who is the foundation of our worth and our value, and who we may experience even today.

In terms of whether we should we do things just because our ancestors did, my response would be an emphatic no. However, it also does not make sense to me to be forever recreating the same wheel. Those who have listened to Nieztsches rhetorical question " What, 2000 years and no new gods?!!" apparently have found it exceedingly difficult to build a better society based on a totally new set of values. My own basic conservative nature recognizes the utility of building a society based on the "wisdom of the ages " as expressed by those that went before.

 

[Blissman]

If there is a Satan (and I believe that there is) this statement above is his mission statement. You cannot deal with what you do not believe in. Think about it. First step toward conquering anything is belief that it exist. 2nd would be understanding it. He wants neither for us.

Look at science. Gravity, the world being round, atoms...all things men first believed in some aspect of of it (at least enough to investigate). Then solidified that belief through further investigation. Man could never be where he is now with these small steps of faith.

Point being: metaphor is disblief, disbelief is an easy life for him (Satan).

Also, if Satan is a metaphor, then so then is everyone else addressed in the Bible by name. Moses, Abraham, Jesus...God. All where spoken about in direct terms (same as the devil). To believe Satan is a metaphor allows for that logic.

I respectfully disagree with several points. Not everyone belives in the concept of a devil. Most people experience the influence of gravity. Gravity is familiar, and is not a metaphor.

You don't need to conquer a belief to believe that it exists, because people imagine things that do not exist. By it's very definition, 'belief' is accepting an idea that cannot be proven.

A metaphor is not disbelief, rather it is an iconic device or a symbolic thought of another concept (such as a red character with horns, a pointy tail and a pitchfork as an icon of the devil, a cross as an icon of 'Christainity', a bang symbol as a fibbonci function, or the combination of shapes, "string theory", to be a very complex set of ideas which have yet to be proven - an attempt to explain, 'everything'. I wonder if physics is a religion without a 'morality module'? The god of math, strings, branes, and LCQ. Hmm.....

Much of the bible IMHO, is metaphorical. Perhaps it is all metaphorical. Metaphorical or fact, the bible is a belief system which functions.

 

[pmarquette]

Why can't God whack the devil ?
Easy :
because we , are His sword and shield .....
because we , like Adam & Esau have forfeited our birthrite
because we , refuse to do what Jesus commanded us to do
we tie God's hands , for He chooses to work through us ...
and we are trying to placate the disciples of darkness ...

 

[Lyle]

I don't buy this explanation because it doesn't jibe with other xian beliefs. Doesn't the bible list times when Yaweh smote all kinds of people he didn't like? Flood, Sodem and Gommorah, etc...

Yeah, what's your point?

The easy way out is to say, "we cannot know Yawah's master plan but he must have one and the devil is part of it I guess". But that is a cop out and not logical. The same logic could be used to support any belief.

Everything that happens is part of God's/Yawah's plan.... When He destoryed the earth with a flood, that was part of it. When he allows Satan to endure, that's part of it...

A simpler explanation is, 'The biblical scriptures are just many different interpretations of peoples' old beliefs in the mythology of Yaweh and none should be taken as fact'. That certainly isn't a crazy thing to consider.

OOOOKKKK, that didn't make any sense... But to go along, the belief that God has left Satan in His plan, and the answer I gave does co-inside with Christian beliefs...

 

[Davebuck]

Yeah, what's your point?

My point was that a previous poster said that just because he could kill people, that doesn't mean he should. But, according to your bible, Yaweh flooded all kinds of individuals (kids included) so why woudn't he smite this satan guy. It seems awfully inconsistent.

Everything that happens is part of God's/Yawah's plan.... When He destoryed the earth with a flood, that was part of it. When he allows Satan to endure, that's part of it...

When you say 'everything that happens must be part of Yaweh's plan' it is known as a 'panglossian' world view. It's emphasized in a cool, fun, short novel by Voltaire called 'Candide'. In it, a philosopher called Pangloss reasoned that there is a god and that the god is omnibenevolent so it would create 'the best of all possible worlds' and therefore whatever happens in life is for the 'best of all possible worlds.

This has been deemed circular reasoning by all other philosophers since them. In fact, Voltaire was making fun of that reasoning in Candide. It's not a logical argument nor a good explanation because we can think of much better possible worlds than ones where innocent people (including kids) suffer.

A simpler explanation is, 'The biblical scriptures are just many different interpretations of peoples' old beliefs in the mythology of Yaweh and none should be taken as fact'. That certainly isn't a crazy thing to consider.

OOOOKKKK, that didn't make any sense... But to go along, the belief that God has left Satan in His plan, and the answer I gave does co-inside with Christian beliefs...

Why doesn't it make sense. I wanted to come up with a simpler explanation for why your bible mentions satan but also mentions an all powerful Yaweh who is all good and yet won't get rid of the satan or why it created satan in the first place knowing full well what would happen. My explanation is, the bible isn't literal truth. I posit that a simpler explanation is that it is made up of many stories written by many different people with different views and beliefs That would explain how it mentions a satan and yet never mentions this god getting rid of satan. It would also explain why there are so many contradictions and ways to interpret it.

I'm saying it's not unreasonable to consider that it's all a bunch of myths. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Natro]

Why can't God whack the devil ?
Easy :
because we , are His sword and shield .....

So God can't act with out us? Then is God all powerful?

because we , like Adam & Esau have forfeited our birthrite

So we are being punished for something we didn't do and have no control over?

because we , refuse to do what Jesus commanded us to do

Sounds tyranical. Why is Hitler killing us? Because we didn't do what he wanted us to do.

we tie God's hands , for He chooses to work through us ...

So we limit God? Then how is he all powerful?
So God works through imperfect beings to complete a perfect plan that he himself can fufill?

and we are trying to placate the disciples of darkness ...

So the devil exist so we can appease the disciples of darkness?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So God can't act with out us? Then is God all powerful?

You're right-God doesn't need us, but He chooses to involve us in His affairs, like children working in the family business.

So we are being punished for something we didn't do and have no control over?

We're being punished for our sin.

Sounds tyranical. Why is Hitler killing us? Because we didn't do what he wanted us to do.

Hitler had no right to do what he did, and he will be held in account for it. But God, by virtue of being God, has the right to make His righteous decrees. If anything is unjust, it is the reality that we sin, and Jesus takes the stripes on His back for it.

So we limit God? Then how is he all powerful?

You're right, God *is* allpowerful, and sovereign. T

So God works through imperfect beings to complete a perfect plan that he himself can fufill?

Yes, He does. By His choice. He wants to give us rewards and He wants to honor us with the partaking in His will. Pretty good deal, if you ask me.

So the devil exist so we can appease the disciples of darkness?

The Bible says we should fear the Lord, Who has the power to give us heaven or hell.

 

[Natro]

You're right-God doesn't need us, but He chooses to involve us in His affairs, like children working in the family business.

What if you don't want to work in the family business? What if you just want to work things out yourself and do things your own way right or wrong?

We're being punished for our sin.

Our sin? I didn't eat a apple from the tree don't pass the buck to me.

Hitler had no right to do what he did, and he will be held in account for it. But God, by virtue of being God, has the right to make His righteous decrees. If anything is unjust, it is the reality that we sin, and Jesus takes the stripes on His back for it.

So God has the right to kill millions if they go againts him but hitler doesn't?(ie the flood) Just because God created us are we suppost to stand by while he kills us for not doing what he ask? There is never a justification for a all powerful all loving being to kill anything. Ever. And thats the reason why if God was all loving he wouldn't kill Satan but since God has killed befor there is no reason to let Satan live and by letting him live for any amount of time is a evil act.

You're right, God *is* allpowerful, and sovereign. T

I didn't say God is allpowerful. I asked why does a being being limited still considered all powerful?

Yes, He does. By His choice. He wants to give us rewards and He wants to honor us with the partaking in His will. Pretty good deal, if you ask me.

So let me get this straight God in his perfection creates all a large amount of imperfect beings so he can reward and punish them for acts he already knows they will do? Wow god must be realy board or realy stupid because that doesn't even make a bit of sense. I got a question. If I put 5 of my own children in a 5 different mazes and tell them to reach the end and they would get something to eat, but I made all but one of the mazes death traps with no end am I a good and loving parent?

The Bible says we should fear the Lord, Who has the power to give us heaven or hell.

So basicly we fear the tyrant who either "gives" us life or death. Uhhh I will never understand how not sending a person to eternal punishment is a sign of love. It is like saying "Ohhh I love you!! You didn't stab me to death!!"

 

[tiuliucci]

God created the world, but allowed for freedom of choice. This freedom allows for the devil. Whether God is omnipotent or not is not of concern. What is of concern is your choice. God has given you the freedom to choice to follow God or the devil.

Anyone who has said that there is no part of the devil in them is not telling the full truth. We are sinners and sinners have the devil in them. No matter how hard you try you will still be a sinner. Every time you think of taking something that is not yours or any other sinful thought you have allowed the devil into you. The verse in James below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by: TruthTraveler

He is still in me.

But I found a Bible verse that helps
James 4:7
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

This verse does relate to the devil being in you. The devil does not show up in the flesh, but in us. Submitting ourselves to God allows us to keep the devil out of us. We see the devil in the flesh when we see others doing evil acts.

Take care,
Troy

 

[Natro]

God created the world, but allowed for freedom of choice.

At most the "freedom of choice" is a illusion if God created the universe.

This freedom allows for the devil.

k

Whether God is omnipotent or not is not of concern.

Nope it is of concern.

What is of concern is your choice.

Nope this thread is discussing the devils choices and Gods choices.

God has given you the freedom to choice to follow God or the devil.

Not the point. God allowing the devil to sway the hearts of man is the point. God is allowing it and has allowed it therefor God is at least partaly responable for the acts of Satan. If I have the power to easily stop a murder (that is going on in front of my eyes, and I have forknowledge of and I put the weapon in the murderers hand) with the flip of a switch and I don't am I in a way responable for that murder?

Anyone who has said that there is no part of the devil in them is not telling the full truth.

So Jesus had part of the Devil in him?

<Snip>

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

What if you don't want to work in the family business? What if you just want to work things out yourself and do things your own way right or wrong?

If you don't want to be in the family, then you can do as you please. And when your life is over, God can be God and decide how He feels about that.

Our sin? I didn't eat a apple from the tree don't pass the buck to me.

It may not have been an apple, but it's every sin committed since birth. Take a look at your first post, about wanting to do what you want to do. The buck stops there.

So God has the right to kill millions if they go againts him but hitler doesn't?

Are you kidding? Do you understand that God is...God?

ust because God created us are we suppost to stand by while he kills us for not doing what he ask? There is never a justification for a all powerful all loving being to kill anything. Ever.

By whose authority? You're questioning His love; can ours be brought into question?

And thats the reason why if God was all loving he wouldn't kill Satan but since God has killed befor there is no reason to let Satan live and by letting him live for any amount of time is a evil act.

So he shouldn't stop us, just those we want Him to stop? And if God doesn't have the right to be God, who are we?

I didn't say God is allpowerful. I asked why does a being being limited still considered all powerful?

But He is all-powerful.

So let me get this straight God in his perfection creates all a large amount of imperfect beings so he can reward and punish them for acts he already knows they will do? Wow god must be realy board or realy stupid because that doesn't even make a bit of sense. I got a question. If I put 5 of my own children in a 5 different mazes and tell them to reach the end and they would get something to eat, but I made all but one of the mazes death traps with no end am I a good and loving parent?

First of all, I just want to encourage you to be very cautious about what you say about God. Even though you don't see it yet, He is a God to be feared, and I'm just saying this for your protection. It's okay to ask questions, but please remember Who you're talking about...

Moreover, why do you think you cannot understand? Or maybe the question should be, why *do* you think you can really understand God?

So basicly we fear the tyrant who either "gives" us life or death. Uhhh I will never understand how not sending a person to eternal punishment is a sign of love. It is like saying "Ohhh I love you!! You didn't stab me to death!!"

You think He's a tyrant because you do not know Him. But why should He not have the right to do what He wants with what His hands have made?