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If God is omnipotent, why can't He smite the devil?

Natro

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If you don't want to be in the family, then you can do as you please. And when your life is over, God can be God and decide how He feels about that.
If I am wrong I hope its not the God you discribe.

It may not have been an apple, but it's every sin committed since birth. Take a look at your first post, about wanting to do what you want to do. The buck stops there.
So if I died at birth I would be saved?


Are you kidding? Do you understand that God is...God? :scratch:
Yes but being the creater doesn't give someone the right to kill.


By whose authority? You're questioning His love; can ours be brought into question?
If God does exist I question his love by his own authority since he is the one who gave me the power to question him in the first place.

So he shouldn't stop us, just those we want Him to stop? And if God doesn't have the right to be God, who are we?
Which brings in to point why would a loving God who is not afraid to murder those who go againts him not stop the being that brings more againts him and was the first againts him in the first place?



But He is all-powerful.
Let me reword is a allpowerful being being limited all powerful?


First of all, I just want to encourage you to be very cautious about what you say about God. Even though you don't see it yet, He is a God to be feared, and I'm just saying this for your protection. It's okay to ask questions, but please remember Who you're talking about...
Why should I fear a loving God because I using the gifts he gave me and doing the actions that he lets me do? I do not hurt any of his creations. If he does not like a question twoards his athority then he is nothing more then a tyrant.
Moreover, why do you think you cannot understand? Or maybe the question should be, why *do* you think you can really understand God?
Ahh the ultimate trump card "God superseeds logic so logic is a useless way to describe him." Since we can never understand God he is nonsense, and to prove what we normaly do with nonsense as a human being answer this question.
What is the square root of a potato?



You think He's a tyrant because you do not know Him. But why should He not have the right to do what He wants with what His hands have made
If I created a race of humans clones for nothing more then slaves do I have the right to do so? Is it moraly acceptable? If God can do it that is the best sign for humans to go ahead and do it ourselves.
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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Natro said:
If I am wrong I hope its not the God you discribe.

Well, it is.

So if I died at birth I would be saved?

God is sovereign. But hell is based on evil deeds people do.

Yes but being the creater doesn't give someone the right to kill.

Do you feel God is answerable to His creation for what His hands have made?

If God does exist I question his love by his own authority since he is the one who gave me the power to question him in the first place.

He gave you that right? Where?

Which brings in to point why would a loving God who is not afraid to murder those who go againts him not stop the being that brings more againts him and was the first againts him in the first place?

Murder? Afraid? Why shoudl God be afraid, and of whom?

Let me reword is a allpowerful being being limited all powerful?

:roll:

Why should I fear a loving God because I using the gifts he gave me and doing the actions that he lets me do? I do not hurt any of his creations. If he does not like a question twoards his athority then he is nothing more then a tyrant.

Doing what He lets you do. You are accountable for your own actions. Is it He who is the tyrant? You feel you have the right to say and do these things?

Ahh the ultimate trump card "God superseeds logic so logic is a useless way to describe him." Since we can never understand God he is nonsense, and to prove what we normaly do with nonsense as a human being answer this question.
What is the square root of a potato?

So you think you can understand God. Okay. Make me a planet. Tell me who is going to win the world series in the year 2009.

If I created a race of humans clones for nothing more then slaves do I have the right to do so? Is it moraly acceptable? If God can do it that is the best sign for humans to go ahead and do it ourselves.

You mean you don't want God to have the right to be God.
 
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Natro

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Well, it is.
Proof?

God is sovereign. But hell is based on evil deeds people do.
So people get into hell through negitive works aka sin but can't get into heaven through positive works?


Do you feel God is answerable to His creation for what His hands have made?
Yes I feel every being needs to give reason for their actions no mater what. If the presedent declares war he needs to give a reason. If you give no reason and don't want to be question then you are nothing more then a tyrant.


He gave you that right? Where?
Well he did give me free will right? And I do have freedom of speech.


Murder? Afraid? Why shoudl God be afraid, and of whom?
1. Murder - the flood
2. Afraid - I never said he was afraid I said he was not afraid.

Natro said:
Which brings in to point why would a loving God who is not afraid to murder those who go againts him not stop the being that brings more againts him and was the first againts him in the first place?

See no mention of being afraid.
I think you ment :rolleyes:

Doing what He lets you do. You are accountable for your own actions. Is it He who is the tyrant? You feel you have the right to say and do these things?
Yes freedom of speech and If God didn't want me to say what I am typing he would smite me. Then again I haven't made fun of a priest for being bald.

So you think you can understand God. Okay. Make me a planet. Tell me who is going to win the world series in the year 2009.
Did I say I can understand God? Let me check.
Natro said:
Ahh the ultimate trump card "God superseeds logic so logic is a useless way to describe him." Since we can never understand God he is nonsense, and to prove what we normaly do with nonsense as a human being answer this question.
What is the square root of a potato?

Hmm nope yet again I never said that, and even If i did I never mentioned to be able to recreate what he is claimed to do. So lets get back to what I realy did say. Since we can never understand God then isn't God just nonsense to us as pityful humans? Ohh and you never answered my question.
What is the square root of a potato?

You mean you don't want God to have the right to be God.
Nope never said that. I basicly asked "If it is ok for God to create a race of beings just to punish them is it ok for me to create a race of human clones just to punish them?" I mean who are they to question their creater I gave them life after all.
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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Actually, you mixed a few of your own quotes with mine.

This was said by you, not me:

Ahh the ultimate trump card "God superseeds logic so logic is a useless way to describe him." Since we can never understand God he is nonsense, and to prove what we normaly do with nonsense as a human being answer this question.
What is the square root of a potato?

A lot of things you're saying you didn't say, you are saying. When you say God isn't afraid to do something in a condemnatory way, what you're really saying is you think He should be. Otherwise, why are you condemning Him for it?

If you're not interested in being your own god, then why do you try to call your Maker into account?

On the one hand you say He's a tyrant, and on the other, you're not the least bit afraid to say the things you do. This is really disturbing.
 
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Natro

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Actually, you mixed a few of your own quotes with mine.
I didn't want to I just don't know the comand to add in the little Quote:Name here thing on the quote boxes.


A lot of things you're saying you didn't say, you are saying. When you say God isn't afraid to do something in a condemnatory way, what you're really saying is you think He should be. Otherwise, why are you condemning Him for it

If you're not interested in being your own god, then why do you try to call your Maker into account?

On the one hand you say He's a tyrant, and on the other, you're not the least bit afraid to say the things you do. This is really disturbing.
Looks like I learned today sarcasim doesn't tranfer well through text.
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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Natro said:
I didn't want to I just don't know the comand to add in the little Quote:Name here thing on the quote boxes.

Ohhhh, okay. Here's the command:

[Qute=name] post you want to quote [/quote]

Of course, the first word is "quote," not qute. Like so:

name said:
 
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J

johnhusswannabe

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The question "If God is omnipotent then why can't He smite the Devil" or some variation of it has been asked by probably everyone around the world. Another variation of this question is "If God loves the world then why does He allow terrible things happen to so many people." These may seem like totally different questions, but they are really the same because they both refer back to the same principles, and therefore have the same answer.
God is Omnipotent(Rev. 19:6), and also His creation is the greatest evidence of it. Why does it seem that the Devil is ruling the world? Why do terrible things happen to so many people if God is omnipotent and loves everyone(John 3:16)? When the terrorist attacks ocurred on Sept. 11, 2001, many people asked these questions, and rightfully so.
Here is the answer. God is simply in control of everything. From a leaf falling from a tree to the ground to the world's tallest buldings falling resulting in thousands of people dying. God did not cause the terrorists to learn to fly and then buy the plane tickets and get on board and take over the planes and then fly the planes full of jet fuel into the World Trade Center. But God did allow it to happen. God has two ways of controlling things, causing or allowing. What do I mean by allowing? I mean by letting a person's sinful nature take over and letting it go unchecked. God brings people into the world to bring jugdement to the world. Rom. 9:17 states, " For the scripture says to the Pharough, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.'" But this sound like God didn't love Pharough? Rom. 9:10 - 15 states, And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man , even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls) It was said to her, the older shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jocob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." But this is in direct contradiction to John 3:16! God could not actually mean that He hated Esua! I have heard some say that Rom 9:13 doesn't mean that God really hated Esau, but that he hated what the descendants of Esau would become. And I respond by saying Really? Then why in the very next verse did Paul ask the question "What shall we say then?(as if us Christians were in some sort of conundrum) Is there unrighteousness with God?" If God really didn't hate Esau then Paul wouldn't feel the need to ask the question "Is there unrighteousness with God?"

So what then does John 3:16 mean? First of all let me quote it - "For God so love the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." This verse means that God loves people of every race, nationality, shape, size, ugly or cute all over the world. God clearly does not love every single person whoever lived on this earth as I showed in Rom 9. The word "world" in John 3:16 is a collective noun. For example when I say, "I like the Chicago Bears," it doesn't mean that I like every single player on the team. There are several players on the team that I wish were playing for someone else. God is entitled to nobody. Nobody deserves His love, grace, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, including me. If God who is omnipotent did love everybody then everybody would receive His compassion and be forgiven. But according to Matt. 7:13-14 God states, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Clearly, not everybody receives God's forgivness. So if a man dies without forgiveness then God didn't have compassion for him which all results from God not extending His love to that man. What good is love without compassion? Compassion, mercy, grace are benefits of love. I truly believe in the phrase 'actions speak louder than words.' Why would you say that God loved a person when He allowed them to go to Hell. You can't say that it is the person's decision to not accept salvation because Rom 9:16 states, "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." So God loves some and forgives some, and, of course, some don't receive His love, and some don't receive His forgiveness. Love and forgiveness go hand in hand.


The whole chapter of Rom. 9 is one of the most important passages in the Bible because it declares God's sovriegnty by showing that God gets what He wants and He does what He wants. In the end, whatever God does is Just, plain and simple.
 
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J

johnhusswannabe

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johnhusswannabe said:
The question "If God is omnipotent then why can't He smite the Devil" or some variation of it has been asked by probably everyone around the world. Another variation of this question is "If God loves the world then why does He allow terrible things happen to so many people." These may seem like totally different questions, but they are really the same because they both refer back to the same principles, and therefore have the same answer.
God is Omnipotent(Rev. 19:6), and also His creation is the greatest evidence of it. Why does it seem that the Devil is ruling the world? Why do terrible things happen to so many people if God is omnipotent and loves everyone(John 3:16)? When the terrorist attacks ocurred on Sept. 11, 2001, many people asked these questions, and rightfully so.
Here is the answer. God is simply in control of everything. From a leaf falling from a tree to the ground to the world's tallest buldings falling resulting in thousands of people dying. God did not cause the terrorists to learn to fly and then buy the plane tickets and get on board and take over the planes and then fly the planes full of jet fuel into the World Trade Center. But God did allow it to happen. God has two ways of controlling things, causing or allowing. What do I mean by allowing? I mean by letting a person's sinful nature take over and letting it go unchecked. God brings people into the world to bring jugdement to the world. Rom. 9:17 states, " For the scripture says to the Pharough, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.'" But this sound like God didn't love Pharough? Rom. 9:10 - 15 states, And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man , even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls) It was said to her, the older shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jocob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." But this is in direct contradiction to John 3:16! God could not actually mean that He hated Esua! I have heard some say that Rom 9:13 doesn't mean that God really hated Esau, but that he hated what the descendants of Esau would become. And I respond by saying Really? Then why in the very next verse did Paul ask the question "What shall we say then?(as if us Christians were in some sort of conundrum) Is there unrighteousness with God?" If God really didn't hate Esau then Paul wouldn't feel the need to ask the question "Is there unrighteousness with God?"

So what then does John 3:16 mean? First of all let me quote it - "For God so love the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." This verse means that God loves people of every race, nationality, shape, size, ugly or cute all over the world. God clearly does not love every single person whoever lived on this earth as I showed in Rom 9. The word "world" in John 3:16 is a collective noun. For example when I say, "I like the Chicago Bears," it doesn't mean that I like every single player on the team. There are several players on the team that I wish were playing for someone else. God is entitled to nobody. Nobody deserves His love, grace, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, including me. If God who is omnipotent did love everybody then everybody would receive His compassion and be forgiven. But according to Matt. 7:13-14 God states, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Clearly, not everybody receives God's forgivness. So if a man dies without forgiveness then God didn't have compassion for him which all results from God not extending His love to that man. What good is love without compassion? Compassion, mercy, grace are benefits of love. I truly believe in the phrase 'actions speak louder than words.' Why would you say that God loved a person when He allowed them to go to Hell. You can't say that it is the person's decision to not accept salvation because Rom 9:16 states, "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." So God loves some and forgives some, and, of course, some don't receive His love, and some don't receive His forgiveness. Love and forgiveness go hand in hand.


The whole chapter of Rom. 9 is one of the most important passages in the Bible because it declares God's sovriegnty by showing that God gets what He wants and He does what He wants. In the end, whatever God does is Just, plain and simple.
So is this an abrupt end to this once heated topic? I am quite surprised nobody has responded to my last post.
 
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Outspoken

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johnhusswannabe said:
So is this an abrupt end to this once heated topic? I am quite surprised nobody has responded to my last post.
In I agree with your prior post, and if you read the passage that contains John 3:16 you can clearly see its not a universalist trump card..Look at verse 18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
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I disagree. Consider the following proposal: What is omnipotence? Unlimited power and able to achieve anything, sounds fitting for a quality of a God. God is also a creator. He created everything that existed. The original question asks why doesn't God smite the devil. Here is a question that might help answer the first question. Can God create a stone so heavy, infinitely heavy so that He, Himself cannot lift? If he does create this stone then he is not omnipotent. If he cannot he is also not omnipotent. So maybe his limited power does not let him smite the devil. God is not omnipotent, just umimaginably powerful.
 
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johnhusswannabe

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pokguyboy said:
I disagree. Consider the following proposal: What is omnipotence? Unlimited power and able to achieve anything, sounds fitting for a quality of a God. God is also a creator. He created everything that existed. The original question asks why doesn't God smite the devil. Here is a question that might help answer the first question. Can God create a stone so heavy, infinitely heavy so that He, Himself cannot lift? If he does create this stone then he is not omnipotent. If he cannot he is also not omnipotent. So maybe his limited power does not let him smite the devil. God is not omnipotent, just umimaginably powerful.
I was waiting for someone to bring this foolish question up. I first heard this question when I was in high school back in the 80's. The answer to the question, "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it?" is no. He can not do anything that will infringe on His sovriegnty. He can not sin. If He can committ a sin such as lie then His Holiness will cease to exist and He will no longer be God. God can not create a rock so big He can't lift it because it will infringe on His omnipotence and ultimately His sovriegnty. God is sovriegn.
Pokguyboy, can you support your position of God's limited power in the Bible?
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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pokguyboy said:
I disagree. Consider the following proposal: What is omnipotence? Unlimited power and able to achieve anything, sounds fitting for a quality of a God. God is also a creator. He created everything that existed. The original question asks why doesn't God smite the devil. Here is a question that might help answer the first question. Can God create a stone so heavy, infinitely heavy so that He, Himself cannot lift? If he does create this stone then he is not omnipotent. If he cannot he is also not omnipotent. So maybe his limited power does not let him smite the devil. God is not omnipotent, just umimaginably powerful.

There's actually a fallacy there. To say God cannot best Himself sounds like He can't do something, but in reality, it's saying He cannot be bested. So it sounds like a contradiction where really there is none. ;) Good try, though; very clever.
 
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Davebuck

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The 'eloquant' answer still doesn't solve the obvious conundrum...The bible says Yahweh smote all kinds of people because he was angry at them. So, why doesn't he smote the devil? For me, this is just another reason to disbelieve the religion in general. But, others like to solve the problem by envoking the answer, 'Well, we can't know Yahweh's ultimate plan'. To me it's a cop-out answer but that is why the thread ended. The lack of a good answer doesn't doesn't make people question the belief and that is what is known as Dogma.
 
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