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If God is not willing that any should perish, why do they?

steve_bakr

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Oh right I've failed to understand. Please tell me then, tell me what it is my itching ears are longing to hear.

But please don't assign labels to me brother. I understand many different theological perspectives but I am not "a Calvinist" as you understand the term.

Steve I advise caution on this doctrine. The bible tells us the wages of Sin is Death. Part of understanding the gospel message is also understanding that we stand in condemnation of God's holy law and that there is a punishment assigned to that failure to keep the law.

It is only with this knowledge can we be humbled and truly turn to Christ in a spiritual sense and accept his offer of payment.

Be very careful of any doctrine that would attempt to lessen the ultimate punishment for breaking God's Law. It is this very knowledge that makes us run to Christ.
So caution then brother. Just be careful.

I think I understand your concern. It isn't as though the concept of ultimate redemption is to be used as an excuse for sin, though. It doesn't rid one of the consequences of sin. But I understand your viewpoint that only the most horrific consequence imaginable will bring some people to Christ.
 
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steve_bakr

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Good man - Hopefully you'll come to understand the sufficiency of Christ.

God bless.

Who knows?...Perhaps a believer in the ultimate salvation of humankind--such as Origen was--reflects an even higher estimation of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice than the believers in eternal damnation. Perhaps such a person has the greater faith in the extent of God's grace than others...

As I said, I don't know whether the book I'm reading--or Origen, for that matter--are correct or not. But they do seem to express noble sentiments. I don't see how such sentiments would reflect in any manner a lack of appreciation for the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.
 
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asiyreh

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Who knows?...Perhaps a believer in the ultimate salvation of humankind--such as Origen was--reflects an even higher estimation of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice than the believers in eternal damnation. Perhaps such a person has the greater faith in the extent of God's grace than others...

As I said, I don't know whether the book I'm reading--or Origen, for that matter--are correct or not. But they do seem to express noble sentiments. I don't see how such sentiments would reflect in any manner a lack of appreciation for the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.

Well Steve this is not a section for debate, but just for fun why don't you go into the theological section of the forum and try and fly a universalist kite in there. You'll probably be the only man in the history of the Christian forums to ever unite every resident of the TS against you lol.

No my friend why are we commanded to preach the gospel???

Now as for the sufficiency of Christ.

Ok Steve for a second lets transfer the setting of this scene. Now you're standing in front of the Lord in judgement. Would you consider for a second using the law to defend yourself? I wouldn't advise that Steve...

Would you consider using your good works in your defense?
Are you sure you've done enough Steve?

Let's be honest, taken out of this nice conformable forum and placed before the Great White throne you'd be on your knees pleading for the sufficiency of Christ.

But that's good Steve, this is the gospel. This is the good news.

Truth is in Christ you don't stand under the judgement of condemnation. You are a child of God adopted in Christ.

Now isn't that good news?

Breathe... Steve let it go. He is all!

Now run, not in fear, run to tell everyone else you can. Run for the different rewards Christ is bringing with him for God's children. Run because you love him. Father, husband, Lord. But no matter what they tell you Steve... he is enough...
 
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steve_bakr

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Well Steve this is not a section for debate, but just for fun why don't you go into the theological section of the forum and try and fly a universalist kite in there. You'll probably be the only man in the history of the Christian forums to ever unite every resident of the TS against you lol.

No my friend why are we commanded to preach the gospel???

Now as for the sufficiency of Christ.

Ok Steve for a second lets transfer the setting of this scene. Now you're standing in front of the Lord in judgement. Would you consider for a second using the law to defend yourself? I wouldn't advise that Steve...

Would you consider using your good works in your defense?
Are you sure you've done enough Steve?

Let's be honest, taken out of this nice conformable forum and placed before the Great White throne you'd be on your knees pleading for the sufficiency of Christ.

But that's good Steve, this is the gospel. This is the good news.

Truth is in Christ you don't stand under the judgement of condemnation. You are a child of God adopted in Christ.

Now isn't that good news?

Breathe... Steve let it go. He is all!

Now run, not in fear, run to tell everyone else you can. Run for the different rewards Christ is bringing with him for God's children. Run because you love him. Father, husband, Lord. But no matter what they tell you Steve... he is enough...

You seem to be suggesting that something I said advocates reliance on works or the law.

Not at all! Paul says we are saved through grace by faith in Jesus Christ.

Also, why would someone have cause to fear God's judgement for a high estimation of God's grace?

Further, I have said that I don't know whether Origen's teaching of ultimate salvation for all is right or not. I don't have that knowledge. But we Catholics are supposed to pray for the salvation of all humankind.

Finally, indeed I do rely on the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and hope for his advocacy at the throne of God's grace.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can i get some scripture about this?

Lutherans call this the Crux Theologorum, or "Theologian's cross". The most frustratingly unanswerable question of all theology: Why are some saved and not others?

The long and short of it is this: We don't know.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Emmy

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Dear Aximili. In Matthew 22, verses 35-40 Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds.
The second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourselves." Then Jesus tells us:
" On these two Commandments hang all the Law. and the Prophets."
To Love is very important to God, and God wants loving sons and daughters. How do we show God that we are following His Commandments to love?
A good way is: treat all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated: with kindness and friendly words, loving advice and stand up for Love and Compassion. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will bless us.
Jesus has promised us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also. " Ask and ye will will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. our neighbour:
( Matthew 7, verse7-8) A Christian`s great weapon is Love, with it we overcome all enmity and wilful behaviour. Love will also change us into the children/sons and daughters, which God wants us to become.
God gave us free will to follow His Commandments or ignore them, we decide.
Jesus our Saviour is always waiting to lead us back to God: Jesus is The Way.
We might stumble and forget, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. We have free will to follow Jesus back to where we came from, or go our own way, and Jesus told us that will be in Outer Darkness, without God`s Love or Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth.
God is Love, and Jesus died for God and Mankind, Now it is up to us:
" Love and Obey," always the very best way. I say this with love, Aximili.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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