if God controls EVERYTHING and if salvation is completely of the Lord.

[dogs4thewin]

Then NOT only what is the point in sharing the Gospel as the elect will come to faith anyway? My other question is someone over Facebook was saying people cannot choose life and was using Lazarus as an example how he was rose from the grave when he heard Jesus.

Suppose someone is threatening suicide ( been there) NOT now but been there. I had someone rat on me and get the law out here ( ended up in the ER) ( a guy I knew from school ( not sure if he knew, but after the fact I was telling someone and I KNOW he knows. If you rat on someone like that( he said he would have done the SAME thing) ( unless you see them directly doing it in some areas you can GO TO JAIL for wasting Police time and other such crimes as can the person that lied.

If someone is threatening suicide and you are not 100% something and you KNOW for a fact your butt can be incarcerated if you are wrong. If God controls everything and will make sure the person will or will not end it WHY would anyone want to go as far as to risk INCARCERATION for such reasons?

 

[Inkfingers]

Then NOT only what is the point in sharing the Gospel as the elect will come to faith anyway?

Because God tells us its our duty to do so, and that it is how He spreads His message.

If someone is threatening suicide and you are not 100% something and you KNOW for a fact your butt can be incarcerated if you are wrong. If God controls everything and will make sure the person will or will not end it WHY would anyone want to go as far as to risk INCARCERATION for such reasons?

I'm not sure what you are asking here ^

 

[dogs4thewin]

Because God tells us its our duty to do so, and that it is how He spreads His message.



I'm not sure what you are asking here ^

In other words, and I am currently NOT considering suicide but have THREATENED it in the past. Now, if someone tells you that and you rat on them, to the law or other people in authority and it turns out the person is LYING, in some areas BOTH people can get arrested/incarcerated for wasting police time. If you KNOW that God controls everything and either will or will NOT allow their life to come to an end by their own hands why on EARTH would you risk incarceration, if they are lying?

 

[Inkfingers]

In other words, and I am currently NOT considering suicide but have THREATENED it in the past. Now, if someone tells you that and you rat on them, to the law or other people in authority and it turns out the person is LYING, in some areas BOTH people can get arrested/incarcerated for wasting police time. If you KNOW that God controls everything and either will or will NOT allow their life to come to an end by their own hands why on EARTH would you risk incarceration, if they are lying?

Maybe you are the means by which God will save them....

 

[dogs4thewin]

Maybe you are the means by which God will save them....

but it either will or will not work and most people do not WANT to be incarcerated that takes nerve to KNOW the risk in a situation like that, so if you KNOW that God is in control and it either will or will not work why would you know to maybe spend time in jail waiting to either make bail or trial. When you could avoid that risk by keeping your mouth shut. UNLESS you catch someone in the act of an attempt in which case it flips.

 

[Inkfingers]

but it either will or will not work and most people do not WANT to be incarcerated that takes nerve to KNOW the risk in a situation like that, so if you KNOW that God is in control and it either will or will not work why would you know to maybe spend time in jail waiting to either make bail or trial. When you could avoid that risk by keeping your mouth shut. UNLESS you catch someone in the act of an attempt in which case it flips.

But you can't avoid them; which you choose is pre-ordained

So relax. Whatever happens is God's purposes playing out.

 

[dogs4thewin]

But you can't avoid them; which you choose is pre-ordained

So relax. Whatever happens is God's purposes playing out.

so honest question, does that mean that God MADE J, who happens to be a Christian, call 911 on my behind after I gave a likely date and method?

 

[Inkfingers]

so honest question, does that mean that God MADE J, who happens to be a Christian, call 911 on my behind after I gave a likely date and method?

Yes.

Everything that happens is for-ordained by God.

Everything.

From the holocaust to the person that jumps in the river to save puppies from drowning.

 

[dogs4thewin]

that makes zero sense. Partly because people DO ignore God.

 

[twin1954]

The idea that God controls everything as one would a robot is absurd. God does control absolutely everything but not as a robot-master. He uses means such as controlling to whom and where you are born and live. Who you come into contact with and the influences that you experience. He even controls the thoughts of the heart.

(Pro 16:1) The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

(Pro 16:4) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

(Pro 16:9) A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

(Pro 16:33) The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.


(Pro 19:21) There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

(Pro 21:1) The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



Now there are several reasons why a person would contemplate suicide: they have no knowledge of God and the world overwhelms, medical reasons, a reaction to certain medications etc... But this too is in the hands of the Sovereign Lord who works all things after the council of His own will. Eph. 1:11
But you cannot blame God for either your sin or your thoughts. You have them because your heart is evil and deceitful.

(Jer 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
(Mat 15:19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

(Mat 15:20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


(Act 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

(Act 2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:



The simple fact is that whatever God does not control must control Him. And whatever controls Him is His God.

 

[Inkfingers]

that makes zero sense. Partly because people DO ignore God.

If they do, it is because they are predestined to.

The Bible has several references to God making people dead/blind to his word, or hardening their hearts against Him.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The idea that God controls everything as one would a robot is absurd. God does control absolutely everything but not as a robot-master. He uses means such as controlling to whom and where you are born and live. Who you come into contact with and the influences that you experience. He even controls the thoughts of the heart.

(Pro 16:1) The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

(Pro 16:4) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

(Pro 16:9) A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

(Pro 16:33) The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.


(Pro 19:21) There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

(Pro 21:1) The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



Now there are several reasons why a person would contemplate suicide: they have no knowledge of God and the world overwhelms, medical reasons, a reaction to certain medications etc... But this too is in the hands of the Sovereign Lord who works all things after the council of His own will. Eph. 1:11
But you cannot blame God for either your sin or your thoughts. You have them because your heart is evil and deceitful.

(Jer 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
(Mat 15:19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

(Mat 15:20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


(Act 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

(Act 2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:



The simple fact is that whatever God does not control must control Him. And whatever controls Him is His God.

so then we are back to what I asks does that mean that if someone threatens to harm themselves and/or others because well God controls everything? I would hope not.

 

[twin1954]

so then we are back to what I asks does that mean that if someone threatens to harm themselves and/or others because well God controls everything? I would hope not.

Those who threaten to harm themselves are usually wanting attention in any form that they can get it. But yes whatever a person does is ordained by God to come to pass for the glory of His name and the good of His people.

Joseph's brothers did a great evil to him by selling him into slavery in Egypt. But when they met him as the ruler of Egypt and found out who he was here is what he said to them:

(Gen 50:20) But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.


Did you read any of the verses that I posted?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Those who threaten to harm themselves are usually wanting attention in any form that they can get it. But yes whatever a person does is ordained by God to come to pass for the glory of His name and the good of His people.

Joseph's brothers did a great evil to him by selling him into slavery in Egypt. But when they met him as the ruler of Egypt and found out who he was here is what he said to them:

(Gen 50:20) But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.


Did you read any of the verses that I posted?

Yes I did. I should have been clearer in my prior post. If God controls everything then does that mean that if someone threatens harm that we should just LET IT GO since God controls everything? In other words, say nothing, do nothing stay with them ECT

 

[twin1954]

Yes I did. I should have been clearer in my prior post. If God controls everything then does that mean that if someone threatens harm that we should just LET IT GO since God controls everything? In other words, say nothing, do nothing stay with them ECT

Of course we shouldn't just let it go. God uses means. He uses men/women to bring too pass what He has ordained. We do not know what God has determined to be the outcome of any situation so we do that which is right and trust that God is in absolute control. God used Joseph's brothers to bring him to Egypt, he used Potifer's wife to put him in prison, He used the butler who was in prison with Joseph to bring him into the presence of Pharaoh to raise him up to rule Egypt.

God uses the foolishness of preaching to call His elect unto faith in Christ. God uses means.

 

[twin1954]

It would seem that your idea of God's absolute control is what is known as fatalism, whatever will be will be. Fatalism is again absurd. The Bible in no way teaches fatalism. What it teaches is that we can take comfort in the absolute sovereignty of God. In the midst of our worst troubles we can take comfort that it is God who not only brought it to us but that He will use it for the glory of His name and the good of His people. I can rest in Him with the peace that passes understanding even in the worst of circumstances because I know that God is in control.

In Acts 16 Paul and Silas were not only thrown into prison but beaten and chained but in the midst of it they sang praise to God. Why? Because they knew that God had put them there for a good reason. Well it turns out that God intended to save a crusty old jailor and his family.

 

[JM]

Waddaya mean "if?"

 

[dogs4thewin]

Waddaya mean "if?"

Just what I said. If God controls everything and we can do nothing about it then why risk trouble to save people?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Yes I did. I should have been clearer in my prior post. If God controls everything then does that mean that if someone threatens harm that we should just LET IT GO since God controls everything? In other words, say nothing, do nothing stay with them ECT

How does it follow logically that if God controls everything, that we should say or do nothing? Sorry but it does not make sense. What if God wants to control me and have me say or do something?

"God controls everything" is no excuse for passivism nor activism. Neither can we assume we know the will of God exhaustively, that we should "help" the will of God one way or the other.

Now concerning the assumption "God controls everything", allow me to quote from a major Calvinistic confession, the Westminster Confession:

CHAPTER 9
Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

I quoted the entire section (for context sake) but underscored parts of the first points which are most related to the discussion.

It has been suggested, that there are at least two sides to the one will of God, or as some call it the "two wills of God theory". In either case what is meant has to do with the sovereign government of God, where He governs everything either actively and or passively according to His divine prerogative, such that whatever occurs is the will of God, whether He actively or passively willed it. Where He actively wills He is directly in the cause chain, where He passively wills, He is indirectly in the casual chain of events.

I hope this helps maybe clear some confusion. God bless.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Doh, I should have also mentioned or explained first and secondary causes, among other things. Overall this is a deep deep issue with so many complexities about it. Historically theologicans have made a number of distinctions concerning the will of God, including His: perceptive will, prescriptive will, permissive will, revealed, hidden, etc. Just remember,

at the end of the day,

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

is still just as true as it was at the beginning of the day. I have been gifted with a small fraction of "answers", I struggle with some of them, not particularly liking all of them, many creating even more questions, but I believe in God and depending on Him has led me into truths I would not otherwise embrace.

I recommend R.C. Sproul's little book entitled "Not A Chance". I'll leave you with a short quote from Chapter 1:

"As long as chance rules,” Arthur Koestler has written, “God is an anachronism.” Koestler’s dictum is a sound conclusion … to a point. It is true that if chance rules, God cannot. We can go further than Koestler. It is not necessary for chance to rule in order to supplant God. Indeed chance requires little authority at all if it is to depose God; all it needs to do the job is to exist. The mere existence of chance is enough to rip God from his cosmic throne. Chance does not need to rule; it does not need to be sovereign. If it exists as a mere impotent, humble servant, it leaves God not only out of date, but out of a job.

If chance exists in its frailest possible form, God is finished. Nay, he could not be finished because that would assume he once was. To finish something implies that it at best was once active or existing. If chance exists in any size, shape, or form, God cannot exist. The two are mutually exclusive.

If chance existed, it would destroy God’s sovereignty. If God is not sovereign, he is not God. If he is not God, he simply is not. If chance is, God is not. If God is, chance is not. The two cannot coexist by reason of the impossibility of the contrary.

This book, however, is not about God. It is about chance. It is about the existence of chance and the nature of chance."


Sproul, R. C. (2000). Not a chance: the myth of chance in modern science and cosmology (electronic ed., pp. 3–4). Grand Rapids: Baker Books.