if God controls EVERYTHING and if salvation is completely of the Lord.

[Don Maurer]

so honest question, does that mean that God MADE J, who happens to be a Christian, call 911 on my behind after I gave a likely date and method?

I know the conversation has gone past the quote, but when you say.... "God MADE J, who happens to be a Christian, call 911." I would like to further explain something that was already said. Genesis 50 was quoted.

It seems to me that you (dogs4thewin) view the deed of "J... call 911" to be an evil deed. I certainly cannot speak to the situation but I can talk about Genesis and the example of Joseph.

First, in Genesis, when God decreed the event of the brothers putting Joseph in a pit and then selling him into slavery... while God decreed this, he did not join in the action of attempting to harm Joseph. God does not have to magically place evil in the hearts of the brothers of Joseph to get the deed done because that evil is already there. The action of God in that case would be not choose not to restrain evil. Why did God choose not to restrain evil? The text tells us that God wanted to save many (from the coming famine). So then, while God decrees evil, chooses not to participate in that evil, but intends to demonstrate his power in turning evil into good.

Second, in your situation, the first thing that would need to be considered is was the deed of Mrs. Christian J evil? I have real questions about your assumption that the deed of Mr. Christian J was evil in and of itself. I sense angry at what J did, but I have difficulty seeing his deed as involving malice on his part in any way. Most people who report suicidal statements to the authorities are just street level people who have no crystal ball to see what is coming and are not qualified to give anyone therapy or even to determine the intent of any suicidal statement. Most will take such a statement at face value and simply want a suicidal person to see the correct people and get help. If I had a friend threatening suicide, I doubt I would try to give him therapy. I am not qualified to do something like that.

Third, God is not in the business of making sure we do not experience pain, and troubles. I think of the text of James 1:2-4 and it tells us that God fully intends that we experience trails, or troubles in our life. The purpose of these trials is that we learn wisdom (see James 1:5). Of course this is only for his own children. In this I also see the sovereignty of God. I, myself, may not like the trials, troubles, or pain, but I also know the loving kindness of God. If God was not willing to remove his own precious Son from the extreme pain of the cross, why would he remove all my pain.

CONCLUSION
Dogs4thewin, I am very glad you are looking into Reformed Theology. It is biblical and will bring about a correct view of many things, including pain and suffering. I think you lack a correct biblical perspective on pain and suffering.

I also hope you gain understanding of the theological difference between the concept of "Gods decree" and God participating in an evil event. God decrees evil. He predestined the fall of Adam. God even decreed and predestined the worse possible evil event ever.... the torture and murder of the only sinless man (and God) to ever live...... Jesus Christ. But God did not participate in that evil in any way. He did not magically make the heart of Pilate sinful (it already was sinful anyway), or magically cause the rebellion of the Jewish people. The scripture could not be more clear that he God decreed and intended the torture and murder of his Son. He decreed and intended the event of the crucifixion to bring from it the most glorious good in all the history of the universe..... our salvation.

I also suspect I know what your thinking and that I am reading you like a book. Your going to think that all this is so very hard to believe. You would not be the first to complain about the correct biblical view of pain and suffering. Have you ever read the Psalms when King David cries out "Oh why do the wicked prosper." Not to like these truths is to be human. To learn to trust in our God through these truths is to be lifted closer to God.

Yours in Christ,
The cage staged Calvinist, Don

 

[Tree of Life]

Then NOT only what is the point in sharing the Gospel as the elect will come to faith anyway? My other question is someone over Facebook was saying people cannot choose life and was using Lazarus as an example how he was rose from the grave when he heard Jesus.

Suppose someone is threatening suicide ( been there) NOT now but been there. I had someone rat on me and get the law out here ( ended up in the ER) ( a guy I knew from school ( not sure if he knew, but after the fact I was telling someone and I KNOW he knows. If you rat on someone like that( he said he would have done the SAME thing) ( unless you see them directly doing it in some areas you can GO TO JAIL for wasting Police time and other such crimes as can the person that lied.

If someone is threatening suicide and you are not 100% something and you KNOW for a fact your butt can be incarcerated if you are wrong. If God controls everything and will make sure the person will or will not end it WHY would anyone want to go as far as to risk INCARCERATION for such reasons?

What's the point of sharing the gospel if God is not powerful to save? If God isn't in control of salvation then why share the gospel?

 

[dogs4thewin]

What's the point of sharing the gospel if God is not powerful to save? If God isn't in control of salvation then why share the gospel?

God is powerful to save, however, that does not mean that all WANT to be saved.

 

[Tree of Life]

God is powerful to save, however, that does not mean that all WANT to be saved.

Why would anyone want to be saved?

 

[pilgrimsong]

I am new to the Calvinism belief. Right now I am reading Post Tenebras Lux. At first I really can't comprehend that Jesus didn't die for everyone but only for the elect. My preacher friend told me that Jesus died for the elect only and not for everyone. (John 17:6-24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.")

GOD is all knowing, He is sovereign so He knows who will be saved even from the start. The way I understand it like what my friend told me, we are to share the gospel to everyone because we ourselves don't know or doesn't know who 'The Elect' are. And that is the commandment of Jesus to us, share the gospel throughout the world.

 

[BryanW92]

I am new to the Calvinism belief. Right now I am reading Post Tenebras Lux. At first I really can't comprehend that Jesus didn't die for everyone but only for the elect. My preacher friend told me that Jesus died for the elect only and not for everyone. (John 17:6-24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.")

GOD is all knowing, He is sovereign so He knows who will be saved even from the start. The way I understand it like what my friend told me, we are to share the gospel to everyone because we ourselves don't know or doesn't know who 'The Elect' are. And that is the commandment of Jesus to us, share the gospel throughout the world.

Jesus died for everyone, but salvation is only for the Elect.

So what is the difference? Imagine a world without Jesus. It is a world of paganism, sacrifices, no morality except for the rule of the strong over the weak. Think about it. So, he came to earth and taught us something vital. He started a small group that spread across the globe as a religion, and changed everything that it touched.

Even if every human were to be destroyed upon death, our life on earth is made immeasurably better by the influence of Jesus.

So, he did come for all the world. And he will take those whom he chooses back to the Father with him one day.

 

[Skala]

Then NOT only what is the point in sharing the Gospel as the elect will come to faith anyway?

This is where you are wrong. They won't "come to faith anyway".

God uses means to accomplish the ends.

The elect won't just randomly be saved in the end whether or not they heard the gospel and repented and put their faith in Jesus.

But rather, they are saved precisely by the means God has ordained, such as the spread of the gospel. God uses the gospel as a tool to visit the elect with the message and change their hearts and bring them to Jesus.

The gospel is like a fish net. To get fish, you have to cast it. The fish don't magically appear in the boat without some means to get them there.

God uses means. That's what you have to understand. God designed not only salvation, but the method of obtaining it (the gospel).

 

[pilgrimsong]

If God knows who will be saved... by sharing the gospel can it alter the future of the unbelievers? what if they will believe?

I asked my friend if God knows who will be saved, then what about those who will not be saved, it is not fair.. my friend told me... well, who are we to question God's plan we should be thankful that He chose and saved us..

 

[Skala]

If God knows who will be saved... by sharing the gospel can it alter the future of the unbelievers? what if they will believe?

I asked my friend if God knows who will be saved, then what about those who will not be saved, it is not fair.. my friend told me... well, who are we to question God's plan we should be thankful that He chose and saved us..

"One question frequently stops Christians in their tracks: "If the Gospel alone saves, then what about the heathen in Africa who never heard?"

Can God justly convict a man who hasn't heard about Jesus? Some people hear the Gospel and reject it, but most never hear it. How can God condemn them?

Christians are ill-equipped to respond because they don't really understand something vital about sin and mercy.

Sin brings guilt. Mercy is a gift. Anyone who is a sinner receives punishment he deserves. Anyone who is saved receives mercy he does not deserve and which is not owed him. Think of this question: How could the sheriff send anyone to jail if he didn't offer him a pardon first?

The answer is simple. If he's guilty, the sheriff is justified in throwing him in jail. There is no obligation to offer a pardon to a guilty man. The same is true of God. He can justly convict a man who has broken His law even though the sinner has heard nothing about God's pardon in Jesus. God owes no one salvation. He can offer it to whomever He wishes. That's why it's called grace."

-Gregory Koukl

 

[Skala]

I am new to the Calvinism belief. Right now I am reading Post Tenebras Lux. At first I really can't comprehend that Jesus didn't die for everyone but only for the elect. My preacher friend told me that Jesus died for the elect only and not for everyone. (John 17:6-24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.")

GOD is all knowing, He is sovereign so He knows who will be saved even from the start. The way I understand it like what my friend told me, we are to share the gospel to everyone because we ourselves don't know or doesn't know who 'The Elect' are. And that is the commandment of Jesus to us, share the gospel throughout the world.

John 10 says Jesus died for his sheep, and then Jesus turns to some pharisees and says "you are not my sheep"

So according to Jesus, not all are his sheep. Thus, he doesn't die for all.

This is from Jesus' own lips!!

 

[Skala]

Why would anyone want to be saved?

That's the real question isn't it