If gender is not black/white, then why black/white sports?

[lawtonfogle]

If we are working under the assumption gender is not black and white, easily proven using numerous conditions, then why men and women sports?s/

Lets say Jordan is a transsexual. He was born for all intensive purposes a male, but growing up discovered he was female, and after much counseling, had the entire operation to be turned female. Should Jordan be allowed to run in the women's or men's sprints?

Now lets look at Anna. Anna was born for all intensive purposes female, but she later discovered she had XY chromosomes but was immune to testosterone. Which sex should she be allowed to compete with?

Ok, extra hard question time. Jay is a chimera. That is to say, when his/her mother became pregnant, it was with two fraternal twins, one male, one female. Within two weeks, these two twins had actually completely fused into one who had both male and female genes. Now, one half (litterally) of Jay is female, the other is male. Which sport should s/he be allowed to participate it? Does it matter which half (upper half, left half, lower half) of Jay is male or female?

 

[nolongerhome]

The answer in practice is that the distinction works the vast majority of the time, and by that I mean 99% (well, closer to 100% than 99% I would say) and that is generally good enough. It makes sense to make a distinction between athlete with that are XX and athletes that are XY, they obviously have distinctly different physiologies and therefore it makes sense to have XYs compete against other XYs and the same for XXs.

It does cause problems for a very small minority of individuals that don't fit that schema, for whatever reason, be it they are XXY, they have had surgery and/or hormone therapy, other hormonal/developmental issues... I think the best that can be done is take each individual on a case by case basis to work out what is fairest for themselves and the other people they would be competing against. When there is no simple distinction that can be made so it seems to me pointless to try to create one, but at the same time the fact that the system is imperfect for a very small number of people doesn't mean that it should be discarded, because it works almost all of the time, and in a world without perfection you can't do much better.

 

[Mystman]

I think because the number of "grays" is so incredibly small, that you couldn't host a good competition with them.

You might see a disproportionate number of "male-like" females in female sports, because their male-ness makes them faster/stronger/etc.

Let's put it this way:

of every good male/female runner, a tiny percentage is competing at the olympics.

of every good male-like female runner, 100% is competing at the olympics.

(I'm making up the numbers ofcourse, but that's the general principle).

 

[lawtonfogle]

The answer in practice is that the distinction works the vast majority of the time, and by that I mean 99% (well, closer to 100% than 99% I would say) and that is generally good enough. It makes sense to make a distinction between athlete with that are XX and athletes that are XY, they obviously have distinctly different physiologies and therefore it makes sense to have XYs compete against other XYs and the same for XXs.

So since my physiology is distinct from the average male (issue with bone growth resulted in my legs being twisted to the point I cannot ski (any type) without specially made skis, haven't a clue how this affects my running, ect.), I should get my own class?

It does cause problems for a very small minority of individuals that don't fit that schema, for whatever reason, be it they are XXY, they have had surgery and/or hormone therapy, other hormonal/developmental issues... I think the best that can be done is take each individual on a case by case basis to work out what is fairest for themselves and the other people they would be competing against. When there is no simple distinction that can be made so it seems to me pointless to try to create one, but at the same time the fact that the system is imperfect for a very small number of people doesn't mean that it should be discarded, because it works almost all of the time, and in a world without perfection you can't do much better.

Which runs into a problem of blowing up sensitive information. Maybe Jay doesn't let most people know s/he is 50/50, yet this will likely become headline news if sports are involved.

 

[nolongerhome]

So since my physiology is distinct from the average male (issue with bone growth resulted in my legs being twisted to the point I cannot ski (any type) without specially made skis, haven't a clue how this affects my running, ect.), I should get my own class?

Clearly not what I meant.

Elite athletes' physiologies are probably also distinct from the average male too - specific bone strutures, long and muscle capacities etc.

The point is that there are hormonal and genetic distinctions which lead to specific general physiological manifestations which enable us to differentiate the vast majority of the population into two categories - male and female. Your bone growth issue is not average, but you can still clearly be identified as a male, I assume. It may well stop you being an elite sportsperson, if you wanted to do that, but not everyone is cut out to be one.

Which runs into a problem of blowing up sensitive information. Maybe Jay doesn't let most people know s/he is 50/50, yet this will likely become headline news if sports are involved.

It likely will become headline news, you are right. If Jay is uncomfortable letting people know about it, they will obviously have difficulties - that means they to factor that into their decision to follow a path, such as competitive sport, that will bring this into the public awareness. That isn't ideal, but a lot of the decisions we are forced to make in our lives are not in ideal circumstances.

 

[cantata]

for all intensive purposes

The correct phrase is “to/for all intents and purposes”.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Clearly not what I meant.

Elite athletes' physiologies are probably also distinct from the average male too - specific bone strutures, long and muscle capacities etc.

The point is that there are hormonal and genetic distinctions which lead to specific general physiological manifestations which enable us to differentiate the vast majority of the population into two categories - male and female. Your bone growth issue is not average, but you can still clearly be identified as a male, I assume. It may well stop you being an elite sportsperson, if you wanted to do that, but not everyone is cut out to be one.

I can be identified as male, but it has to do with short hair and not shaving every day. Over this summer, I had my hair grow quite long, and when I shaved, I was called 'mam' more than once at Wal-Mart.

 

[lawtonfogle]

The correct phrase is “to/for all intents and purposes”.

Ya'll don't know bout my southern accent.

I don't actually know if that is southern or not, but from where I am from, that is how it has always been said. Or maybe they just say it so fast I never heard it correctly?

 

[Penumbra]

So since my physiology is distinct from the average male (issue with bone growth resulted in my legs being twisted to the point I cannot ski (any type) without specially made skis, haven't a clue how this affects my running, ect.), I should get my own class?

I dunno, why not? They have wheelchair basketball. If you can find enough people that want to do it, then go for it.

Which runs into a problem of blowing up sensitive information. Maybe Jay doesn't let most people know s/he is 50/50, yet this will likely become headline news if sports are involved.

That's currently going on actually.

Athletics: Gender-question runner 'had high testosterone' - Sport - NZ Herald News

You can find tons of links on it. This 18 year old woman started winning races, and now she's getting her sex tested because she has deep voice, muscular build, and so forth. They're doing genetics tests, physical examinations, and all that. Apparently the rule in female sprinting is that they must be entirely biologically female.

Sports is a sticky issue because what sex you are really affects what you can do. In some sports, females can enter male divisions if they choose to, but it's virtually never the other way around. If people who are in-between sexes but are primarily male begin to enter female competitions, that will give them a huge biological edge. When a woman wins a female division, it is concluded that she is the best out of those who have two X chromosomes (because in most sports if she were to compete against the top male, she would lose. That's not always the case but often is- because otherwise there would be no reason to have separate male and female divisions).

I think it makes sense to keep the sexes in competition discrete. If they are good enough, the person who has their sex in question should be allowed to enter the male divisions.

-Lyn

 

[cantata]

Ya'll don't know bout my southern accent.

I don't actually know if that is southern or not, but from where I am from, that is how it has always been said. Or maybe they just say it so fast I never heard it correctly?

Well, if that’s how they say it, I’m afraid they’re wrong!

WikiAnswers - Is the saying 'all intents and purposes' or 'all intense purposes'

 

[atomweaver]

The correct phrase is “to/for all intents and purposes”.

Irregardless of that, the point is mute...

 

[tulc]

Irregardless of that, the point is mute...

LOL! LOL!
tulc(sprayed coffee through his nose over that one!)

 

[cantata]

Irregardless of that, the point is mute...

Can you be more pacific?

(*grinds teeth*)

 

[quatona]

Well, if that’s how they say it, I’m afraid they’re wrong!'

OTOH, if that´s how that say it we could simply assume that that´s what they and the OP mean when they say it. It´s not like "for all intense purposes" has no meaning.

 

[quatona]

Irregardless of that, the point is mute...

I couldn´t of said it better.

 

[atomweaver]

I couldn´t of said it better.

Their's a nice example...

 

[keith99]

Their's a nice example...

quite, or the grandma please will catch us.