If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?

[Carl Emerson]

ECC 12
man goes to his eternal home while the mourners move around in the street. 6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
.
John 5:
28 ‘Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out – those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

As for the reference to under the earth... there in no realm wherein His authority does not prevail. This was expressed supremely when many were raised from the grave to life at his crucifixion.

Matt 27
Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

 

[Derf]

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Toddlers aren't fully informed about hot stoves or busy streets, yet the consequences are just as dire. What if God wasn't really trying to set up a punishment system, but was telling the universal consequences for disobedience--because He knew exactly how bad the consequences were.

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.

But that's not what we see in Genesis. God have them the ability to understand language, then He used that language to speak to them, saying "The consequences for disobeying me are DEATH." That sounds fully informed to me.

If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

If the consequences are natural, then God is merely informing us as to what the consequences are. Why does free will matter in such a case, except to prove freewill. Without consequences, there's no freewill.

 

[Saint Steven]

Toddlers aren't fully informed about hot stoves or busy streets, yet the consequences are just as dire. What if God wasn't really trying to set up a punishment system, but was telling the universal consequences for disobedience--because He knew exactly how bad the consequences were.

Are you saying that the natural consequences of sin in this lifetime are MORE severe than a forever burning hell with no hope of escape?

But that's not what we see in Genesis. God have them the ability to understand language, then He used that language to speak to them, saying "The consequences for disobeying me are DEATH." That sounds fully informed to me.

In your quote above you say that toddlers aren't fully informed about hot stoves and traffic. But now you claim that A&E were?

If the consequences are natural, then God is merely informing us as to what the consequences are. Why does free will matter in such a case, except to prove freewill.

Seems to me that natural consequences are enough in most cases. Even in such cases we will rescue and care for the person to restore them.

Without consequences, there's no freewill.

That's an interesting point.

Natural consequences are still consequences that fit the "crime". We even have laws to prevent cruel and unusual punishment. I certainly believe that a forever burning hell with no hope of escape would fit that description.

 

[Rajni]

Not to mention pain in childbirth.

Aw heck yeah. Talk about ouch.
Epidurals. I highly recommend epidurals.
That is all.
Carry on.

 

[Derf]

Are you saying that the natural consequences of sin in this lifetime are MORE severe than a forever burning hell with no hope of escape?

Why would you say those were the consequences for a&e, when the bible clearly lays out the consequences as something else?

In your quote above you say that toddlers aren't fully informed about hot stoves and traffic. But now you claim that A&E were?

Yes.

Seems to me that natural consequences are enough in most cases. Even in such cases we will rescue and care for the person to restore them.

Yes. So did God, despite the terrific cost. But once the child touches the hot stove, the evidence of the consequences might remain on his body until death.

That's an interesting point.

Natural consequences are still consequences that fit the "crime". We even have laws to prevent cruel and unusual punishment. I certainly believe that a forever burning hell with no hope of escape would fit that description.

You're mixing up different crimes. That one came much later, after they were dead, so it didn't apply. I'm not sure how it could, but I'm still thinking about it.

 

[Gup20]

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

The consequences specified in the original operating instructions are the appropriate consequences. God said "do not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil for in the day you do you shall surely die." Therefore, death is the appropriate consequence.

Understanding is rarely a prerequisite for obedience. I tell my kids all the time, "because I said so" is the only reason you need to obey what I've told you. The kid reaching for a hot stove doesn't understand the consequences until they have touched and experienced the pain involved. Does that mean they should not have had the consequence of touching the hot stove or does the consequence cause them to trust the law giver has their best interest at heart?

Gen 3:7, 22 NASB95 - 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. ... 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"​

They gained an understanding having experienced the consequence. Was that knowledge or understanding superior to their former ignorant obedience? Was the knowledge worth it?

Consider that this knife (ignorant consequence) --THANK THE GOOD LORD BABY JESUS -- cuts both ways. Consider Abraham;

Gal 3:8, 16 NASB95 - 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

​

Gen 15:5-6 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.​

Abraham was credited with righteousness for his ignorant faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He didn't know the name of Jesus, nor all the details of the gospel, but Paul said God summed up the gospel in the single sentence "all the nations will be blessed in you." God knew exactly what he was talking about, but Abraham surly did not. As a consequence of that ignorant faith, Abraham obtained the promise of righteousness and eternal life.

So having seen both sides of the coin -- which is better? Knowledge and understanding or ignorant obedience and faith? Better to be ignorant and obey or have simple, unrefined faith, I think.

It makes sense if we have come to know Good and Evil (as God Himself declares in Genesis 3:22) that we would be presented with an opportunity to choose between the two.

Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

We know that "circumcision of the heart" is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Rom 2:29), so the context of Deu 30 is salvation by faith. Paul confirms this when he quotes from this passage in Romans 10:

Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

​

We also know that Adam's judgement of death was a UNIVERSAL judgement for a single sin (rom 5:12, 8:22). Adam, his wife, the ground, the plants, the animals, all were cursed for Adam's sin. However, if even a single righteous person comes into the world, that universal judgement becomes UNJUST. If a single righteous person existing, that universal judgement would need to be repealed in lieu of individual judgements.

2Ti 1:10 NASB95 - 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

​

2Ti 4:1 NASB95 - 1 I solemnly charge [you] in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:​

It stands to reason that by Christ's appearing (not by his death and resurrection) Adam's judgement (death) is repealed and ALL things are restored to life again. But not in an "ultimate reconciliation" sense... but with the purpose to repeal the universal judgement and inflict an individual one. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is... an individual judgement.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The decision is to act in accordance with the truth you were exposed to. If you act as if you believe it, then you do. If you do not act like you believe it, then you don't. If you call on Jesus, then you must believe he is Lord.
Not rocket science.

 

[Saint Steven]

The decision is to act in accordance with the truth you were exposed to. If you act as if you believe it, then you do. If you do not act like you believe it, then you don't. If you call on Jesus, then you must believe he is Lord.
Not rocket science.

I agree.
I just noticed your sidebar (for lack of a better term) under your avatar, which reads,

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)​

What does that mean to you?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I agree.
I just noticed your sidebar (for lack of a better term) under your avatar, which reads,

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)​

What does that mean to you?

There is the common evangelist method of suggesting to people that they "make Jesus Lord of your life."
The Word says that God made Jesus Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:36
36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

It also states that Jesus is Lord of all. You do not have to make Him Lord because He is already Lord of all.

Romans 10:12
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

There is no suggestion that we have any choice in the matter of His Lordship. He does not ask or need our permission to be Lord. It is an odd notion that people think they have the authority to do such a thing. The only choice we have is; once we are aware of His lordship over all, to call upon His name, for He (as Lord) will be merciful to all who do so.

There is an added danger in the above demand that we should "make Him Lord." That danger is the subtle suggestion that He is NOT Lord, when the scripture clearly says He is. Their well-meaning call is actually an inadvertent denial of His Lordship over all. It reminds me of two other instances of where Satan attempts to insert doubt into the heart and mind.
First was to Eve in the garden : "Hath God said?"
Second, was after Jesus came up from the water God said "This is my Son..." Satan tempted Jesus to doubt or question - "If you be the Son of God..." Jesus countered with "It is written."
The solution is always "it is written." That is always the answer when Satan tempts you with doubt.
In the case of this discussion, when it is suggested that Jesus is not Lord until you make Him Lord is to simply say:
"It is written, God has made Jesus Lord and Christ, and He is Lord of all. All I need do is call on His name and He, as Lord, will be merciful to all who do so."
So Jesus is Lord of all by the decree of God and He is not asking your permission to be so, nor does He need it. He is demanding your submission by calling on His name to be saved, and He promises that He will do it.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is no suggestion that we have any choice in the matter of His Lordship. He does not ask or need our permission to be Lord. It is an odd notion that people think they have the authority to do such a thing. The only choice we have is; once we are aware of His lordship over all, to call upon His name, for He (as Lord) will be merciful to all who do so.

Thanks for answering my question and for replying with such an informative post. What do you make of this?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thanks for answering my question and for replying with such an informative post. What do you make of this?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Yes. I agree. Good stuff. I understand that "confess" is this context means to "say the same thing" as what you believe, or to align your speaking with your awareness of the truth. "Hold fast to the confession of your faith."
In each of these you are not really doing anything other than proclaiming the truth. The idea of trying to believe something is kind of bogus. You do not have to "try" to believe something. You become aware with no effort at all. As Peter said, we have the gospel preached into us.

1 Peter 1:25 (Jonathan Mitchell New Testament)
25 yet the saying (declaration; thing spoken) of the Lord [=
Yahweh] is constantly abiding (continuously remaining),
into The Age (the eon).” Now this continues being “the
saying” (the declaration) being announced as good news
to you folks (or: And this is the thing being spoken into
you in the good news).

The word "unto" in this verse is EIS or "into." The word is spoken into us by revelation.
Romans 10:17
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

My understanding of this verse is "faith comes by revelation, and revelation comes by a spoken word from Christ."

Faith in this context is little more than awareness of a truth that is subsequently acted upon as truth:
You are aware the bridge is out, therefore you do not attempt to cross it.
You are aware that it is diner time so you get to the table.
You are aware Jesus is Lord and He will save you if you call on His name, so you do.

You are not really trying to "believe" in something by mental effort or concentration, you are simply acting in accordance with what you have discovered.
Paul has a very interesting thought in this context:

2 Corinthians 5:19-20
19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

He is saying "God has reconciled you, therefore be reconciled!"
IOWs, start acting in according with what has been done. You are reconciled, so start seeing yourself as reconciled.
Just know that it is so. No effort. No concentrating or straining your brain. Just know it is true.

I ask myself if believing something is true makes it true?
Does not believing it make it false?
God created the heavens and earth. I do not have to believe it for it to be true.
Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose on the third. That is true regardless of what I believe. Being aware of it does not make it any more true, and not being aware of it does not make it false.
The only difference is that when I am aware of a truth, do I begin to act in accordance with it?
That is the test of whether you believe something. Do you act in accordance with it?

James 2:17
17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I read this to mean "faith without corresponding actions is dead."

In the realm of our spirit and our faith, confession means to say the same thing as what is there.
I hope this makes sense.

 

[Derf]

---

Thanks for answering my question and for replying with such an informative post. What do you make of this?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

The translation you used said "every knee should now." (as if it is what one is supposed to do, but not forced to do.) KJV says "every knee shall bow." ("Shall" is often used in legal contracts to indicate things required, but the party may be able to avoid doing those things, albeit with penalty.) Neither says "every knee will bow." I think both convey the idea that not everybody will participate in the bowing, and those who don't are no longer welcome in the kingdom.

 

[Saint Steven]

In the realm of our spirit and our faith, confession means to say the same thing as what is there.
I hope this makes sense.

The confession then, in the afterlife, that "Jesus is Lord" is of no effect, or of good effect?

 

[Saint Steven]

The translation you used said "every knee should now." (as if it is what one is supposed to do, but not forced to do.) KJV says "every knee shall bow." ("Shall" is often used in legal contracts to indicate things required, but the party may be able to avoid doing those things, albeit with penalty.) Neither says "every knee will bow." I think both convey the idea that not everybody will participate in the bowing, and those who don't are no longer welcome in the kingdom.

We find stronger language in Romans 14:11 below. Which is actually a quote from Isaiah 45:23.
God even swears by himself that it will happen.

Romans 14:11 NIV
It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Isaiah 45:23 NIV
By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The confession then, in the afterlife, that "Jesus is Lord" is of no effect, or of good effect?

I think there would be validity to this argument if salvation were a purely spiritual function.
There is the notion that in the end everyone will "believe" but will rebel. Like the antichrist , the false prophet, and those that follow them, they will be aware of the lordship of Christ, but they will rebel against it.
As He descents from the clouds, they will battle Him and try to prevent His setting up His kingdom.
Interesting concept.
Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said:

The confession then, in the afterlife, that "Jesus is Lord" is of no effect, or of good effect?

I think there would be validity to this argument if salvation were a purely spiritual function.

What else would it be?
After the new heavens and earth are created, what is left of this world?

Will God's plan for humankind end in an unresolved mess (driven by human free-will), or will it all come full circle back to the original perfection?

Where is the sovereignty of God if he allows his creation to destroy itself?

 

[Derf]

We find stronger language in Romans 14:11 below. Which is actually a quote from Isaiah 45:23.
God even swears by himself that it will happen.

Romans 14:11 NIV
It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Isaiah 45:23 NIV
By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

That's why I pointed out the versions you had used before said "should" and "shall", which mean "are required to" in some usages, as opposed to "will" which is usually indicative merely of future predicted action. The distinction isn't often recognized in today's english, and I'm not confident that was the intention in the original languanges, but it's worth considering.

 

[Derf]

Saint Steven said:

The confession then, in the afterlife, that "Jesus is Lord" is of no effect, or of good effect?

What else would it be?
After the new heavens and earth are created, what is left of this world?

Will God's plan for humankind end in an unresolved mess (driven by human free-will), or will it all come full circle back to the original perfection?

Where is the sovereignty of God if he allows his creation to destroy itself?

The world is saved by Jesus. "For God so loved the world..." Paul's emphasis is usually on the resurrction of the body, not just on the soul.

 

[Gup20]

Saint Steven said:

The confession then, in the afterlife, that "Jesus is Lord" is of no effect, or of good effect?

What else would it be?
After the new heavens and earth are created, what is left of this world?

Will God's plan for humankind end in an unresolved mess (driven by human free-will), or will it all come full circle back to the original perfection?

Where is the sovereignty of God if he allows his creation to destroy itself?

By "afterlife" do you mean "after judgement?" -- death is a judgement. Why would you expect a different judgement after the first?

Jhn 3:18 NASB95 - 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

​

Jhn 8:23-24 NASB95 - 23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins."​

But we know death (Adam's judgment) will first be abolished.

1Co 15:26 NASB95 - 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.​

​

2Ti 1:10 NASB95 - 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Abolished means repealed. Vacated. Eliminated. This is what is meant by resurrection... ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and the wicked, from Adam's corporate judgment to face individual judgements (the Great White Throne judgement). Those who do not have Christ's righteousness individually applied to them AFTER being resurrected, will face a second death judgement.

 

[Saint Steven]

By "afterlife" do you mean "after judgement?" -- death is a judgement. Why would you expect a different judgement after the first?

To me, the afterlife is anything after this life on earth.

With that clarification,can you answer the question?

The confession then, in the afterlife, that "Jesus is Lord" is of no effect, or of good effect?

Those who do not have Christ's righteousness individually applied to them AFTER being resurrected, will face a second death judgement.

The second death, to you, is a forever burning hell, or annihilation?