If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?

[Saint Steven]

Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, banned from the Tree of Life, condemned to die, caused all creation to be cursed, and passed on "sin and death" to all human beings that followed. So God answered the question about "what consequences are appropriate".

Do you think God didn't anticipate, even expect, what happened? Was it outside his plan?

 

[sparow]

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

Free will seems to me to be a misnomer; In the case of choosing between being with God, and being against God, the default being the second death; only a fool would make the choice uninformed; the uninformed are usually unaware a choice is required.

 

[Saint Steven]

Free will seems to me to be a misnomer; In the case of choosing between being with God, and being against God, the default being the second death; only a fool would make the choice uninformed; the uninformed are usually unaware a choice is required.

BINGO!
That's my point, I suppose.

And the idea that eternal conscious torment, or even annihilation, would be the consequence is preposterous.
What sort of God would do such a thing?

 

[atpollard]

I would say, yes. Because UR would have a corrective period for us all to work through those issues. Everyone will be salted with fire.

If I kidnap a person off the street and lock them in my basement, they would initially fear and hate me.
How long do you think that I would need to punish them before they loved me the way that we love Jesus?

[I am having trouble seeing how this "salted with fire" gets people from Romans 1:18-32 (in life) to UR (in eternity) using "gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8, 13, 22, 24, 25) in between.]

 

[atpollard]

Do you think God didn't anticipate, even expect, what happened? Was it outside his plan?

How does God's Sovereignty or omniscience change the fact that God already passed judgement on the sin of Adam and Eve and thus declared what is an "appropriate punishment"?

When does the curse end? (When men believe in Christ.)
And if someone NEVER accepts Christ (see Romans 1:18-32), when does their curse end? (Never.)

[Hebrews 2:3] "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation ..." (We shall not. Wrath is stored up for the day of wrath and God endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.)

 

[Saint Steven]

If I kidnap a person off the street and lock them in my basement, they would initially fear and hate me.
How long do you think that I would need to punish them before they loved me the way that we love Jesus?

[I am having trouble seeing how this "salted with fire" gets people from Romans 1:18-32 (in life) to UR (in eternity) using "gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8, 13, 22, 24, 25) in between.]

That's a great question, thanks.

We know that all our secrets will be made known on that Day. And that we will account for every idle word. Are you with me so far?

Imagine having your whole life reviewed before everyone and having to deal with everything you had done and everything others had done to you. Weeping and gnashing of teeth might be an appropriate response. Kind of like when you got saved. - LOL

Since this work will be restorative and redemptive, rather than a pointless punitive shaming and torture, the end result will be beautiful.

Any questions?

 

[chilehed]

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Nonsense. Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit, they were under no compulsion or coercion to do it, and they did it anyway; that's the definition of a free-will decision.

The fact that that we rarely (in fact, never) fully understand the consequences of our decisions doesn't mean that we therefore cannot make them freely; that has nothing to do with it.

 

[Saint Steven]

How does God's Sovereignty or omniscience change the fact that God already passed judgement on the sin of Adam and Eve and thus declared what is an "appropriate punishment"?

We tend to forget that one of the best options in judgment is mercy.
The two Adam's are the only men that mattered in reference to our salvation.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Nonsense. Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit, they were under no compulsion or coercion to do it, and they did it anyway; that's the definition of a free-will decision.

The fact that that we rarely (in fact, never) fully understand the consequences of our decisions doesn't mean that we therefore cannot make them freely; that has nothing to do with it.

On the contrary.

"Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit..." Yes, of course. That's not the point.

The point is that they didn't fully understand the consequences. The narrative makes this clear.
And God said nothing about their actions resulting in the Fall of humankind. That was a nice bonus.
Not to mention pain in childbirth. Did Eve know that was coming? Food by the sweat of your brow?
Thorns and thistles? Shall I continue?

 

[atpollard]

Since this work will be restorative and redemptive, rather than a pointless punitive shaming and torture, the end result will be beautiful.

Any questions?

I am pretty sure that I disagree with your exegesis on the nature of “hell”, however, that is not the same as not understanding your position.

So, no questions (thank you for the explanation).

 

[chilehed]

The point is that they didn't fully understand the consequences.

That has nothing to do with it.

 

[Saint Steven]

That has nothing to do with it.

We seem to be at an impasse. - LOL
Can you do better than to repeat yourself? (from post #27)

Will you address my post below? (from post #29)
A glib response won't cut it.

On the contrary.

"Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit..." Yes, of course. That's not the point.

The point is that they didn't fully understand the consequences. The narrative makes this clear.
And God said nothing about their actions resulting in the Fall of humankind. That was a nice bonus.
Not to mention pain in childbirth. Did Eve know that was coming? Food by the sweat of your brow?
Thorns and thistles? Shall I continue?

You have failed to acknowledge that our free-will choices are uninformed.
Were Adam and Eve informed of the consequences listed in my post quote above? (nope)
They didn't even die in the day they ate thereof. Seems to be a GRAND case for being uninformed.

 

[bling]

Would you have eaten the fruit if you knew it meant certain death?

The Adam and Eve story is complicated, but God's communication is perfect. Adam's communication with Eve was not perfect and we do not know if God left for Adam the communication of the tree to Eve, we might have some miscommunication. This gets into the responsibilities of a husband and wife plus the differences between a man and a woman remember Eve is not just another Adam with different plumbing.
Where did the "cannot touch the tree" come from?
Eve was made for Adam and Adam was not made for Eve but was the perfect match for Eve (this could take a lot to explain). Do women ask a lot of questions, more than men?
Eve seemed to selfishly lust or covet after the fruit. They both would lack Godly type Love or the acceptance of God's Love as pure undeserved charity, they as God's creation and doing nothing wrong would naturally expect God to "love" them with a very strong parent for child type love. They had no reason to humble themselves to the point of accepting charity.
The serpent just tells Eve what her selfish hear wants to hear.
Yes! Adam fully knew what he was doing, but by this time Adam was "with" Eve (they were one) and Adam could not live without Eve, his love for Eve was greater than his Love for God. Adam could not live without Eve, so wherever Eve was going Adam wanted to be with her, even in death.
The original Romeo and Juliet story.

 

[bling]

Are you saying they were fully informed? In that case, would anyone in their right mind not go?

No! There is always more we can know, but what we do know is enough to make our choice, more information would not change our response (which God would know from knowing our hearts). Yes, those that refused to go made that the free will choice from the information they had and more information would not change their response. What other information could you give those who refused (include the older son in the prodigal son story) for them to be happy at the banquet?

 

[Saint Steven]

Adam's communication with Eve was not perfect and we do not know if God left for Adam the communication of the tree to Eve, we might have some miscommunication.

Right. I agree. We don't know for sure, but sure seems like it.

Where did the "cannot touch the tree" come from?

Exactly. That's an important clue.

Yes! Adam fully knew what he was doing

I differ with you on that point. Did he know a mistake would mean the Fall of humankind?
And he would eat by the sweat of his brow? Or that his wife would have life-threatening and painful childbirth?

The original Romeo and Juliet story.

Nice. Love that. - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

No! There is always more we can know, but what we do know is enough to make our choice, more information would not change our response (which God would know from knowing our hearts). Yes, those that refused to go made that the free will choice from the information they had and more information would not change their response. What other information could you give those who refused (include the older son in the prodigal son story) for them to be happy at the banquet?

Do you think people are generally happy with the consequences of their decisions?

 

[bling]

Do you think people a generally happy with the consequences of their decisions?

Let's just say the older son in the prodigal son parable decides not to go to the party, in some ways he would want to go to such a wonderful party, but he would not be happy at the party, so he will not go, the consequences further division with the father and his brother. When we are talking about salvation decisions, we are really talking about what makes your happy. People who refuse to humbly accept God's Love in the form of forgiveness as pure undeserved charity are not going to be happy in heaven where the only Love being exchanged is Godly type Love.

 

[bling]

I differ with you on that point. Did he know a mistake would mean the Fall of humankind?
And he would eat by the sweat of his brow? Or that his wife would have life-threatening and painful childbirth?

This is another huge topic. I do not call it a "fall" but a transition. When my children first sinned, I did not consider it a "fall" but a transition into a different mature situation.
God knew Adam and Eve would not fulfill their objective and they would sin given the scenario they were in. The objective drives everything and not to ever sin is not the objective.
Sinning seems to be the only way humans can turn to God for help/charity/forgiveness.
We tend to look at the garden scenario and think it would be the best situation, but Adam and Eve (our best earthly representatives sinned with that scenario) so it would not be best for us, while this messed up world is the very best scenario for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.
That is a brief description.

 

[sawdust]

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

I'm trying to wrap my head around how one can be ignorant of something yet make a choice for or against it. Are you sure you don't mean incorrectly informed? Afterall, Eve made the decision she did based on the information that appealed to her the most. Do you think she understood what it meant to be "as wise as God" anymore than she understood death? At the end of the day, she took that fruit on the basis of it's appeal to her own understanding. It's not like the truth isn't out there. If one wants to know the truth so they can be informed, God is not stopping them.

Ignorance is always understandable but it is never excusable.

 

[Saint Steven]

God knew Adam and Eve would not fulfill their objective and they would sin given the scenario they were in.

Set up to fail?