If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?

[Saint Steven]

I'm trying to wrap my head around how one can be ignorant of something yet make a choice for or against it.

We are forced to make decisions all day long. We are ignorant about many things.

Are you sure you don't mean incorrectly informed? Afterall, Eve made the decision she did based on the information that appealed to her the most. Do you think she understood what it meant to be "as wise as God" anymore than she understood death? At the end of the day, she took that fruit on the basis of it's appeal to her own understanding.

Perhaps incompletely informed.
Eve probably understood "as wise as God" better than death. IMHO

It's not like the truth isn't out there. If one wants to know the truth so they can be informed, God is not stopping them.

Do we ever really have all the information?

Ignorance is always understandable but it is never excusable.

Yes, but what about appropriate consequences?

 

[bling]

Set up to fail?

They and all of us learned and learn a ton of stuff from their Garden experience (one being it does not work). We should be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through this experience for all of us. This does not mean Adam and Eve went to hell.

 

[David's Harp]

Set up to fail?

Wouldn't it be to God's Glory if He could use the ignorance and sin of the first Adam in order to set in place a chain of events that would ultimately bring (some of) us into reconciliation with Him?

 

[sawdust]

Yes, but what about appropriate consequences?

Do you consider you or I are in a better position to determine the correct consequences of an action? God said "don't eat from the tree". How hard is that to understand? Why do you think we have to know everything in order to make the correct choice? If you think you don't have enough information, what is stopping you from seeking more? I can give you scripture after scripture to show God is not as far away as one might think.

It sounds to me like you just want to make excuses for people. What about calling them to be responsible with the information they do have? Does that count for nothing?

 

[public hermit]

What about calling them to be responsible with the information they do have

But that's the question. What information did they have? They had no idea of the consequences. Children are exactly that way, often. You can tell them "No." But that hardly makes a dent. Adam and Eve were spiritually immature and part of that immaturity was the ignorance of the difference between good and evil. You want them to be responsible, but for what? Their ignorance?

Augustine's rendering of the Genesis account is flawed. It's time to take a hard look at what the Genesis account is communicating. God doesn't need the faulty "free-will" defense. That was Augustine's issue, i.e., trying to defend God in the face of evil. We need to look at it again and try to see what is being communicated to us because the tradition that has assumed Augustine's outlook is not working.

 

[Saint Steven]

Wouldn't it be to God's Glory if He could use the ignorance and sin of the first Adam in order to set in place a chain of events that would ultimately bring (some of) us into reconciliation with Him?

Yes! Exactly!
The plan from the beginning was restoration, reconciliation, and redemption. That is what God is about.
This idea that he set us up to fail, and will punish us forever is a monstrous accusation. IMHO

 

[Saint Steven]

But that's the question. What information did they have? They had no idea of the consequences.

Right.
A grand case of poor communication on both sides.

God informed Adam, who then misinformed his wife. (assuming the "do not touch" rule was from Adam) Neither one really knew what death was. And it was a reference to spiritual death, not physical death. (my interpretation) They did not die physically in the day they ate thereof.

And there were additional consequences that were not a part of the original agreement. Being kicked out of the garden. Food by the sweat of your brow, thorns and thistles, pain in childbirth (say what?). It even cost the serpent an arm and a leg... wait... four legs, I guess. Anyway...

 

[sawdust]

But that's the question. What information did they have? They had no idea of the consequences. Children are exactly that way, often. You can tell them "No." But that hardly makes a dent. Adam and Eve were spiritually immature and part of that immaturity was the ignorance of the difference between good and evil. You want them to be responsible, but for what? Their ignorance?

Augustine's rendering of the Genesis account is flawed. It's time to take a hard look at what the Genesis account is communicating. God doesn't need the faulty "free-will" defense. That was Augustine's issue, i.e., trying to defend God in the face of evil. We need to look at it again and try to see what is being communicated to us because the tradition that has assumed Augustine's outlook is not working.

They knew what eating was and they knew what tree God was talking about. They had all they needed to know to do what was right. I don't see the problem. You don't need to know consequences to follow directions.

I fail to see what it is you think is not working?

What is being communicated to us is very simple ... "man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God".

 

[Saint Steven]

They knew what eating was and they knew what tree God was talking about. They had all they needed to know to do what was right.

And they were, until the serpent showed up to deceive them. A little advanced warning would have been helpful.

 

[sawdust]

And they were, until the serpent showed up to deceive them. A little advanced warning would have been helpful.

The serpent didn't just suddenly show up, it was always there. And the scripture says Eve was deceived, nothing about Adam being deceived.

Again, it's all just excuses. They had all they needed to follow the will of God, they chose not to.

Are you a parent? Do you give to your kids what they don't have the capacity for? People need to learn to want what they have the capacity for and not to go beyond that. Unfortunately most people want power, knowledge, status etc beyond what they can handle. You cannot have an "overflowing cup" without first acquiring a cup.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Free will only matters when a decision has to be made.
Salvation is not a decision. It is an awareness. We do not decided to see the sun in the morning or live the next moment.
The gospel is revealed to us. It is preached into us. We are fish in a net. We do not decide to see it. We are saved by revelation of the word.
I know when I was saved, I do not recall deciding to do anything. I remember becoming aware of a set of truths. I reacted to those truths as if they were, well, true.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

Salvation is not about consequences, it is about responding to God's love in Jesus.

 

[Saint Steven]

Salvation is not about consequences, it is about responding to God's love in Jesus.

Can it really be a gift if it is conditional?
Salvation is a complicated mechanism if we have ANY part in it. IMHO
Consequences for our deeds need not nullify God's unconditional gift of salvation.

 

[eleos1954]

Can it really be a gift if it is conditional?
Salvation is a complicated mechanism if we have ANY part in it. IMHO
Consequences for our deeds need not nullify God's unconditional gift of salvation.

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather serve one another humbly in love.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can it really be a gift if it is conditional?
Salvation is a complicated mechanism if we have ANY part in it. IMHO
Consequences for our deeds need not nullify God's unconditional gift of salvation.

Since when has it been conditional?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Since when has it been conditional?

Aside from accepting the invitation?

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said:
Can it really be a gift if it is conditional?
Salvation is a complicated mechanism if we have ANY part in it. IMHO
Consequences for our deeds need not nullify God's unconditional gift of salvation.

Since when has it been conditional?

Aside from accepting the invitation?

Well... perhaps you answered your own question. - LOL

You've seen this scripture before.
Only the acts of two people in history have a bearing on our salvation.
The trespass of one resulted in sin and condemnation.
The obedient act of the other resulted in justification, life, and righteousness.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[RoBo1988]

Speaking for myself, my choices are all informed- some by good, some by bad information.
Before I was born again, my choices were mainly informed by biological family(which is not always good; Hank Williams Jr. sang a song about that), (mostly unsaved) friends, acquaintances, co-workers, television, and pop culture.

Wisdom, as well as folly, both cry out to be heard Proverbs 1:10-11 and Proverbs 1:20-21 I have heeded both in my life. As Jimmy Buffett sang "I read dozens of books about heroes and crooks/ And I learned much from both of their styles"

Before I received Salvation over 30 years ago I nearly read the entire Bible- while carrying on in the world as always. Until The Lord in His Mercy convicted me of being a fence sitting hypocrite, after which i submitted to His Will and his Way. My information resource has changed to His Word, His Spirit, and Saints of His Church family.

Am I still enticed to follow "bad information"? Yes, but as the hymn says: "The things of this world (have grown) strangely dim / In the Light of His Glory and Grace"

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well... perhaps you answered your own question. - LOL

You've seen this scripture before.
Only the acts of two people in history have a bearing on our salvation.
The trespass of one resulted in sin and condemnation.
The obedient act of the other resulted in justification, life, and righteousness.

Not quite...

John 1 11-13...

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

As many as received Him.. we must believe and receive. However neither of these is an action - as the verse says it is not a choice of the will, or something we inherit.

So believe and receive to become a Child of God, many don't.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not quite...

John 1 11-13...

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

As many as received Him.. we must believe and receive. However neither of these is an action - as the verse says it is not a choice of the will, or something we inherit.

So believe and receive to become a Child of God, many don't.

Thanks, Carl.

What I see in this, is there needs to be a transaction to enter a relationship. An understanding if nothing else.
Evangelicalism has mistaken this for the source of salvation. And I would say that healthy relationships ARE conditional.
But salvation isn't conditional. Which is why some view an unhealthy relationship with God as a loss of salvation. (nope)

I'm guessing that you understand that salvation is already a done deal, if all you have to do to gain it, is receive what is already there waiting for you. Thus readily receiving what is available to all.

Perhaps where we differ most is my understanding that the offer/availability of entering the relationship and of receiving salvation extends into the afterlife.

We should discuss your biblical apologetics for why you believe the decision has to be made in this lifetime. (assuming you believe that) And that in the afterlife there will be no opportunity.

Or we could discuss why the phrase "under the earth" appears in this scripture. As you wish.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.