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Of course - such a fact runs counter to the tales from the ancient middle east which must be held as TRUTH lest one be cast out from their place of worship.It's funny that this whole thread started because Inquiring Mind just cannot accept the scientific fact that humans evolved from lower lifeforms.
Maybe not... just that particular point in time makes me wonder what made us take a step like that (breaking from the natural norm), if we were a lower animal form. Another good point though.
I think it had to do with the invention of farming. People cleared the land to plant and then they built shelters near the fields. They built fences to keep out wild animals and predators so that they became more and more removed from the wilderness. Farming was so vastly superior to hunting and gathering that it left lots of free time for people to make their shelters more comfortable and invent better ways of doing all kinds of talks.First, let me make a statement, before I present my question. I understand very well that once the seed of ‘with enough time there is no limit to the amount of change possible’ is accepted… then it’s macroevolution hook, line and sinker. Ok, I get it.
Let’s forgo the goo to lower animal argument, no need to even go there. For argument sake, we’ll just say ‘if’ it did happen. What I’m wondering is what ever influenced us to even consider living outside the ‘wilds’, when every natural instinct is contrary to it. I mean increased brain capacity would be like ‘I need to make the jungle or savannah more comfortable.’ And, yes, I understand the hunter/gatherer and farmer transition (but only as humans).
I just can’t see a lot of ‘I don’t like this wild atmosphere at all, so I’m going to try another lifestyle altogether.’ I understand the concept of gradual change over time (micro level of course), and following and adapting to a food supply and even conditions to a point, but progressively changing from a lower animal natural lifestyle in the ‘wilds,’ to a human one outside the wilds… well, help me understand (please, no this is how evolution works) how you think this could possibly happen, regardless of the time involved?
I think it had to do with the invention of farming. People cleared the land to plant and then they built shelters near the fields. They built fences to keep out wild animals and predators so that they became more and more removed from the wilderness. Farming was so vastly superior to hunting and gathering that it left lots of free time for people to make their shelters more comfortable and invent better ways of doing all kinds of talks.
There a couple of problems with that hypothesis:
Sedentism predates agriculture. And;
Agriculture predates sedentism.
Seems contradictory, but there's an explanation.
There's evidence of sedentary pre-agricultural settlements in various locations. Generally in highly abundant environments, where foraging was actually a more productive strategy than agriculture.
There's also evidence of cultures that developed agriculture that remained nomadic, or became partly nomadic/did not maintain a year-round sedentary lifestyle. There's evidence of agricultural development in some early societies that precedes the onset of sedentism by centuries (or even thousands of years).
I'm not saying you're wrong - sedentism and agriculture are definitely linked. However, there's WAY more to the picture than just that and a lot of other factors need to be taken into account.
It's taken ~300 years to piece some of the reasons together, and we still have a frustratingly inexact account of the hows and whys of the development of sedentism. There's no one reason - there's a host of local situations and factors that contributed to the rise of permanent settlements.
You make good points, but it seems after-the-fact (whether creation or evolution) or ‘mankind specific’ transitions. My question is... if you think macro evolution occurred, ‘why’ would a group or groups of apes decide to leave the jungle, and everything natural to them, for an unknown or un-natural way of life in the first place? Just curious about your thinking... it doesn't seem like a natural act, evidenced by the many apes that didn't do it.
That's my point.You keep using the phrase unnatural, and you need to stop. Nothing is unnatural unless it is constructed and fake.
I didn't say they did. I said group or groups of apes.Also, early humans didn't live in the jungle.
That's my point.
I didn't say they did. I said group or groups of apes.
I don't understand where the confusion comes from.You make good points, but it seems after-the-fact (whether creation or evolution) or ‘mankind specific’ transitions. My question is... if you think macro evolution occurred, ‘why’ would a group or groups of apes decide to leave the jungle, and everything natural to them, for an unknown or un-natural way of life in the first place? Just curious about your thinking... it doesn't seem like a natural act, evidenced by the many apes that didn't do it.
I don't understand where the confusion comes from.
There aren't rubbish bins in nature... but no one is surprised that wildlife raids them.
There aren't houses in nature... but no one is surprised that possums and wasps move into them.
Plastic doesn't exist naturally, but some birds love it to decorate their nests.
Yes, but this is usually the result of humans encroaching on or near natural habitats, not the other way around.I don't understand where the confusion comes from.
There aren't rubbish bins in nature... but no one is surprised that wildlife raids them.
There aren't houses in nature... but no one is surprised that possums and wasps move into them.
Plastic doesn't exist naturally, but some birds love it to decorate their nests.
That isn't true at all.Yes, but this is usually the result of humans encroaching on or near natural habitats, not the other way around.
It doesn't take much imagination to think of ways this might happen - I speculated an answer to this back in #126:... My question is... if you think macro evolution occurred, ‘why’ would a group or groups of apes decide to leave the jungle, and everything natural to them, for an unknown or un-natural way of life in the first place? Just curious about your thinking... it doesn't seem like a natural act, evidenced by the many apes that didn't do it.
What is it you find unnatural about animals migrating to new areas and/or making those areas more suitable to sustained comfortable living? Do you find it unnatural when rabbits construct tunnels to live in, or when beavers construct dams?You make good points, but it seems after-the-fact (whether creation or evolution) or ‘mankind specific’ transitions. My question is... if you think macro evolution occurred, ‘why’ would a group or groups of apes decide to leave the jungle, and everything natural to them, for an unknown or un-natural way of life in the first place? Just curious about your thinking... it doesn't seem like a natural act, evidenced by the many apes that didn't do it.
Not really, that's what rabbits and beaver do... I'd find it odd if they started building nests high up in trees though.What is it you find unnatural about animals migrating to new areas and/or making those areas more suitable to sustained comfortable living? Do you find it unnatural when rabbits construct tunnels to live in, or when beavers construct dams?
I don't get it... you disagree with my statement about human encroachment then give me two examples, which humans initiated.That isn't true at all.
Animals move into new environments all the time whenever the opportunity arises.
Think of every feral domestic species in human history alone.
Think of accidental releasing of wild species into new environments.
So, building settlements and complex infrastructure is what humans do in the same way that building burrows and dams is what rabbits and beavers do.Not really, that's what rabbits and beaver do... I'd find it odd if they started building nests high up in trees though.
Initiated sure, but what happened was that animals took advantage of a situation humans caused, not just moved into human space when their environment was destroyed.I don't get it... you disagree with my statement about human encroachment then give me two examples, which humans initiated.
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