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If everything is designed...

Delphiki

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So, since creationists and ID supporters purport that everything is designed, then how do we distinguish whether or not something is designed.

You would need something natural or not designed to compare to in order to determine another thing was designed.

Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet.
 

AV1611VET

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So, since creationists and ID supporters purport that everything is designed, then how do we distinguish whether or not something is designed.

You would need something natural or not designed to compare to in order to determine another thing was designed.

Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet.
This sounds to me like you are saying that you agree with creationists and ID supporters that the universe is designed.

If you do, what's your question?

If you don't, is there something you don't think is designed?
 
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Greg1234

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Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet.

"Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet [and saying that the ticking mechanism of the watch can produce all the watches in existence]."
 
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chuck77

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So, God can't exist because something in nature may not look designed...great.

Where did all matter come from? Answer that first then we can move on to what designs came out of that matter and how it ended up in the current design it's in.

You skip the all important question with this silly little strawman. Shame shame...
 
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AV1611VET

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Where did all matter come from? Answer that first then we can move on to what designs came out of that matter and how it ended up in the current design it's in
Excellent point! :thumbsup:
 
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Delphiki

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So, God can't exist because something in nature may not look designed...great.

Where did all matter come from? Answer that first then we can move on to what designs came out of that matter and how it ended up in the current design it's in.

You skip the all important question with this silly little strawman. Shame shame...


It's more intellectually honest to say "I don't know" when one doesn't know than to say a being did it.

It looks like the question may be over everyone's head. Let me try to make it easier to understand.



You put a watch next to a rock, and you can tell the watch is designed and the rock is not. The watch serves a specific purpose for it's creator (humans) and can be seen being created at the watch factory by humans. The rock only serves a purpose when humans or something assigned it one, makes something out of it, or incidentally (like blocking a path of water, for example). We know it is not created because we see rocks are made through natural processes like erosion or volcanic activity.

Now, it can't possibly be a straw man argument to say that proponents of Intelligent Design believe the universe was designed by a creator. It's the very definition of Intelligent Design. The universe is *everything*. Therefore, according to Intelligent Design advocates, everything is designed.

So again, if everything is supposedly designed, what do we have to compare to anything to determine it's designed? What point of reference or object can you hold next to anything in the universe to say "Yes, compared to this thing, this other thing is definitely designed."

See, Intelligent Design people are so certain that the universe itself is the evidence that everything is designed. How is that even possible when you can't even describe the qualities of something that make it designed? All I get is an answer like "Well everything is just so complex and beautiful". Well, complexity occurs in nature, and beauty is subjective.

So, once again -- if everything is designed, what thing can you compare to anything that is not designed?
 
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Delphiki

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"Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet [and saying that the ticking mechanism of the watch can produce all the watches in existence]."

Exactly. So you finally agree that intelligent design is false. Good to know.
 
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OllieFranz

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Where did all matter come from? Answer that first then we can move on to what designs came out of that matter and how it ended up in the current design it's in.

That question goes outside Science. Science can't answer it because Science was not designed to ask it in the first place. I believe that we have an answer in God and His act of Creation, but I believe that because of my Christian heritage, not my scientific one.

Something most Creationists, and even some atheistic scientists either forget or are confused about is that Science is not reality. It is a model of reality (or, more accurately, a collection of models). Reality is too broad to be grasped in both its entirety and in complete detail by any mind lesser than that of God Himself.

In order to understand reality, we have to model it. We have to focus on a specific small portion of reality, and on no more than three or four aspects (variables) within that small portion, and pretend that the influence of anything beyond that tight focus is negligible.

One example of such a model is a map. A map models a portion of the Earth's surface. The larger the area covered by a map, the less accurate it is away from the primary focus, so for whole-Earth maps, there are different projections with different foci. A Mercator projection is focused on the Equator, and becomes distorted at the poles. A polar projection is focused on one of the poles, and is distorted at the equation and totally misleading as one approaches the opposite pole.

In addition, a map can only tell you a few things about the area it models. Depending on the type of map, it can tell you where to find roads, or political boundaries, or elevation, or natural resources, or the weather at a given time, etc. but not all of this information on a single map.

In addition, creating a model is like trying to teach yourself chess without a rulebook. You observe chess in progress and try to classify what you see. Whatever you do not understand, you put aside for the moment. It may turn out to be a rarely used aspect of a rule that is a little more complex than you thought (for example, castling or en passant capturing of one pawn by another) or it may be an "illegal" move (such as a child might be allowed to make by an indulgent grandparent). You don't know which it is, so you can't include it as one of the rules that you have discovered until you have a chance to investgate more completely.

An example of the former is the bumblebee flying despite apparently failing to meet Bernoulli's principle. An example of the latter (a miracle) is walking on water.

So Science sets aside miracles, and other supernatural influences. (To switch, briefly, to a different metaphor, it's like setting aside a piece of a jigsaw puzzle until you find the pieces it fits with.) Science ignores the actions of God, not because "scientists" have decided that they don't believe in God, but because the very essence of Science is trying to discover the rules, and God does not have to follow the rules.

As I said, Science is a collection of models, each one focused on a very small segment of reality. Evolution is focused on changes in the distribution of traits in a population which improve the animals' fit within the niche that the population has begun to fill. It requires a living population and an environmental niche. It cannot answer questions about the origins of these things, any more than a book of chess rules can answer the question about why Bobby Fisher decided to practice chess instead of football. It takes a different book on a different subject (in this case, a biography) to answer that question.
 
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Delphiki

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This sounds to me like you are saying that you agree with creationists and ID supporters that the universe is designed.

Only for the sake of argument. I'm sure you know that. Please try to contribute by giving an answer or explanation instead of playing stupid.

If you do, what's your question?
I don't. Same question.

If you don't, is there something you don't think is designed?
Pretty much everything in nature. What are we, pretending to be back at square one?
 
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ThankGod

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Everything is in God's plan; God controls your life even if you don't realize it. God is always with you, on earth and in heaven, that is. But what is God's creation is alive, such as us, and what is man's creation are dead objects like money, and cell phones.

Which is why God doesn't like when you take a life for something that doesn't even matter..

God bless.
 
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Split Rock

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So, since creationists and ID supporters purport that everything is designed, then how do we distinguish whether or not something is designed.

You would need something natural or not designed to compare to in order to determine another thing was designed.

Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet.

Generally speaking, this allows creationists to claim anything they want is "intelligently designed." My problem with I.D., however, is that intelligence that comes from nature is not distinguished from intelligence that does not come from nature. Our intelligence is a natural phenomemon, whereas God's intelligence is not. Yet, they are treated as the same by I.D. propenents. Therefore, man's design of an automobile or a watch is seen as similar to God's design of a fly or an eye. Thus, if man designs a watch, then God must have designed an eye. Yet, our intelligence and our design processes are ones we can examine... God's we cannot.
 
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Delphiki

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Everything is in God's plan; God controls your life even if you don't realize it. God is always with you, on earth and in heaven, that is. But what is God's creation is alive, such as us, and what is man's creation are dead objects like money, and cell phones.

Which is why God doesn't like when you take a life for something that doesn't even matter..

God bless.

God didn't create rocks, clouds, rivers, and mountains? The ocean? The earth? The sky?
 
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J

Jazer

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So, since creationists and ID supporters purport that everything is designed, then how do we distinguish whether or not something is designed.
Everything follows the law. If you break the law there is a price to pay. So it really does not matter where the law came from. All Evo and Creos agree that there are natural laws. The law itself, like the Golden Ratio determines design. That is what I was trained for in College is design and all the math that you have to follow when you design something.
 
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Belk

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Everything follows the law. If you break the law there is a price to pay. So it really does not matter where the law came from. All Evo and Creos agree that there are natural laws. The law itself, like the Golden Ratio determines design. That is what I was trained for in College is design and all the math that you have to follow when you design something.


Just to point out that not everything follows the law from a scientific viewpoint of the word law. Scientific laws are applied to very specific circumstances. For example the Newtonian laws of motion break down at relativistic speeds and relativity breaks down on the quantum level.
 
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J

Jazer

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For example the Newtonian laws
I am not talking about mans attempt to understand the laws contained within the universe. I am talking about the actual laws that we can only begin to understand. Why does everything follow the Golden ratio? That is why they try to come up with a theory of everything to connect quantum physics with classic physics. The Golden Ratio could be an expression of a sound wave. A string is in effect a wave.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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Everything is in God's plan; God controls your life even if you don't realize it. God is always with you, on earth and in heaven, that is. But what is God's creation is alive, such as us, and what is man's creation are dead objects like money, and cell phones.

Which is why God doesn't like when you take a life for something that doesn't even matter..

God bless.

Everything is in Thor's plan; Thor controls your life even if you don't realize it. Thor is always with you, on earth and in heaven, that is. But what is Thor's creation is alive, such as us, and what is man's creation are dead objects like money and cell phones.

Which is why Thor doesn't like when you take life for something that doesn't even matter..

Thor bless.


Cwhatididthere? :p
 
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Phred

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So, since creationists and ID supporters purport that everything is designed, then how do we distinguish whether or not something is designed.

You would need something natural or not designed to compare to in order to determine another thing was designed.

Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet.
Back a ways, before ID was co-opted by creationists... it was an attempt to find design. In other words, if human being evaporated tomorrow how would aliens landing here in 100 years know if Mount Rushmore was designed? Connecticut's Old Man in the Mountain? (I know, it collapsed in 2003...) How do you determine design in nature? How would aliens landing here, not finding designers, determine that Mount Rushmore was designed?

images


old_man_of_the_mountain.jpg


Well, first you look for a natural process that could replicate the thing you're looking at. Are there others like it out there? Are they in various stages of completion? Are there proto-rushmores out there so that we can begin to understand how they are made?

But what if the process takes hundreds of thousands of years? Millions? How do we determine if a process created the thing or if it was designed?

Perhaps we seek to find out if it could not be created by a process in any way. This is the Behe approach. Irreducible Complexity. It can't come together in any other way so it has to be designed.

What is the hallmark of design vs. process?

Bueller?
 
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Phred

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Everything is in God's plan; God controls your life even if you don't realize it. God is always with you, on earth and in heaven, that is. But what is God's creation is alive, such as us, and what is man's creation are dead objects like money, and cell phones.

Which is why God doesn't like when you take a life for something that doesn't even matter..

God bless.
As someone who doesn't believe there is a god, any god, I find this kind of post foolish if not blatantly silly. You're saying there's a being out there who is completely and totally invisible. We can't see it, we can't sense it in any way. Yet, somehow, without expending energy or moving matter it sends thoughts into our heads to make us do things. This being not only controls you and I but all 7 BILLION of us. So that when I smash my car into another person's car it's part of the plan for both of us. This same being hears each and every one of us when we beg it for things. It gives us what we need and will never allow us to have more than we can bear. Yet it leaves no trace. There are no neurons that fire for no reason, no odd energy expenditures... nothing. And this being not only does this for our planet, but for the UNIVERSE. A universe which is billions of light years across. Now, you also believe that this being is omniscient. It knows when a sparrow falls. It knows everything that happened and knows everything that will happen. The mind of this being must be at least as large as the universe itself. Since it knows where every electron is at any given moment the data that is held in this being's mind is so vast it must also have a retrieval system that is faster than light. Thoughts in your deity's mind must, in fact, move many, many times faster than light.

It is the most complicated, largest, database we can conceive of. All in the mind of your god. And this god cares if I take its name in vain? This god, with so much knowledge, so much power, left us the Bible??? It requires worship and faith?

Why? It knows everything I did and will do. My choices are my own but it knows I will make them.

And yet, it cannot heal an amputee.
 
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