If everything is designed...

[OllieFranz]

Try harder when you are attempting to derail threads.

I apologize for continuing AV's derail, but simply ignoring him or just pointing out that he is changing the subject still leaves the impression that he knows what he is talking about.

 

[Delphiki]

Good question.

So we need to set some criteria for the evaluation.

To me, one way to evaluate is to see how many physical/chemical principles are involved in the process of construction.

For example: in order to make a brick, all you need is a function of cementation. But in order to (make) a (natural) rock, boy, you don't want to know how complicated it is. The formation of a simple rock would easily involve at least dozens of factors.

Actually, there's more than one way rocks are formed. Volcanoes, impacts, erosion, sediment, drying mud, etc... You realize that bricks are made from minerals from various rocks? They are actually more complex than rocks, not to mention more geometrically symmetrical. Just FYI.

 

[Greg1234]

That is what my point was...that it does not! I was never taught evolution BTW. So if it does not why are we cutting down Intelligence design again?

They're trying to link Intelligent Design with Creationism so it can secretly mean Darwinism too.

 

[Jazer]

You would need something natural or not designed to compare to in order to determine another thing was designed.

Evolution is a design, in order for something to be designed then it has to follow the rules. 1/2, 2/3, 3/5 The Fibonacci Series & the Golden Ratio, what some call the Divine Ratio. I must be the only one here that has any training at all in design because no one seems to know anything about it.

 

[Greg1234]

Everything is in Thor's plan; Thor controls your life even if you don't realize it. Thor is always with you, on earth and in heaven, that is. But what is Thor's creation is alive, such as us, and what is man's creation are dead objects like money and cell phones.

Which is why Thor doesn't like when you take life for something that doesn't even matter..

Thor bless.


Cwhatididthere?

No no,

Everything is in Thor's plan; Thor controls your vida even if you don't realize it. Thor is always with you, on tierra and in cielo, that is. But what is Thor's creation is alive, such as us, and what is man's creation are dead objects like l'argent and telephone cellulaire.

Which is why Thor doesn't like when you take life for something that doesn't even matter..

Gott segne dich.



Cwhatididthere?

 

[AV1611VET]

Try harder when you are attempting to derail threads.

I wasn't attempting to derail threads, chief; I was addressing this ad hominem:

You are just showing the people here how little education you had.

Do you care to address it?

 

[Jazer]

Meanwhile in a labratory somewhere scientists stare in horror at an equation that reveals that indeed "then a miracle happened".

Most of the miracles I have seen simply restores something back to God's origional purpose and intention. So it is easy for them to claim that there was no miracle because everything is the way it is suppose to be. What becomes difficult is to prove there was ever a problem or a need for a miracle. Also so much in life is designed with an amazing ability to heal and restore itself. Some would say to restore harmony with self. That is why good humor and laughter is associated with good health.

Humor was one of the four fluids of the body, blood, phlegm, choler, and black bile, whose relative proportions were thought in ancient and medieval physiology to determine a person's disposition and general health.

There is divine healing that we can not accomplish on our own apart from God. But for most people it is difficult to tell the difference between what the body is able to do on it's own and what we need to depend on God for. Even now there are breakthroughs with stem cell research. So they are starting to see restoration they had not seen before.

 

[Greg1234]

It's more intellectually honest to say "I don't know" when one doesn't know than to say a being did it.

It looks like the question may be over everyone's head. Let me try to make it easier to understand.



You put a watch next to a rock, and you can tell the watch is designed and the rock is not. The watch serves a specific purpose for it's creator (humans) and can be seen being created at the watch factory by humans. The rock only serves a purpose when humans or something assigned it one, makes something out of it, or incidentally (like blocking a path of water, for example). We know it is not created because we see rocks are made through natural processes like erosion or volcanic activity.

That would be the intelligence of the earth creating the rock form. The birds make nests, the beaver makes dams, but neither the earth, beaver, nor bird is capable of creating a human.

Now, it can't possibly be a straw man argument to say that proponents of Intelligent Design believe the universe was designed by a creator. It's the very definition of Intelligent Design. The universe is *everything*. Therefore, according to Intelligent Design advocates, everything is designed.

Intelligence is an organizing principle. That's what it is- a force capable of certain feats. We don't have nothing to compare it with as there is a multitude of intelligent levels available to us (including ours) which we can compare the designs with. Where an organizing principle which exceeds that of a bird, badger, rain clouds, wind, etc, is required, this is called intelligence. A great mind is required in the construction of a human.

So again, if everything is supposedly designed, what do we have to compare to anything to determine it's designed? What point of reference or object can you hold next to anything in the universe to say "Yes, compared to this thing, this other thing is definitely designed."

Designed by intelligence.

See, Intelligent Design people are so certain that the universe itself is the evidence that everything is designed.

By intelligence. It's called Intelligent Design (nice try tho).

How is that even possible when you can't even describe the qualities of something that make it designed? All I get is an answer like "Well everything is just so complex and beautiful".

Too complex. A high organizing principle is required. The mind is a force.

Well, complexity occurs in nature,

The earth builds rocks, the clouds build snowflakes, the bees build hives, the beavers build dams, but this has never slowed archeology down, has posed little hindrance to forensics, and the Great Pyramid was subject to a similar judgment of design.

So, once again -- if everything is designed,

...by intelligence.

what thing can you compare to anything that is not designed?

...by intelligence. It's called intelligent design. Get that one.

 

[Jazer]

You are just showing the people here how little education you had.

Does not matter how little he has as long as he has more then you. My sister was a teacher all her life. In her case she was just one step ahead of the class. But she taught in a two year college so it does not take much to be one step ahead of people there.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Most of the miracles I have seen simply restores something back to God's origional purpose and intention.

And how do you know what God's original purpose and intention is? By what method did you ascertain, "Ah, this miracle is reverting something back to God's original purpose", or "Ah, this time God's not reverting something back"?

So it is easy for them to claim that there was no miracle because everything is the way it is suppose to be. What becomes difficult is to prove there was ever a problem or a need for a miracle. Also so much in life is designed with an amazing ability to heal and restore itself. Some would say to restore harmony with self. That is why good humor and laughter is associated with good health.

Humor was one of the four fluids of the body, blood, phlegm, choler, and black bile, whose relative proportions were thought in ancient and medieval physiology to determine a person's disposition and general health.

No: the 'Four Humours' was the collective term for four bodily fluids (blood, black bile, yellow bile, and phlegm) whose balance the ancient Greeks believed vital for good health - if in bad health, then draining one of the four fluids was supposed to rebalance you and make you well. In any case, the term is unrelated to the modern meaning of the word 'humour', as in, 'something funny or amusing'.

Your misunderstanding is, ironically, quite humorous .

There is divine healing that we can not accomplish on our own apart from God. But for most people it is difficult to tell the difference between what the body is able to do on it's own and what we need to depend on God for. Even now there are breakthroughs with stem cell research. So they are starting to see restoration they had not seen before.

If it's hard to tell between the body's natural healing abilities and divine intervention, then what makes you so such that there really is such a thing as 'divine healing'?

 

[Jazer]

...by intelligence. It's called intelligent design. Get that one.

Jimmy Carter use to make a big deal out of being born again. So when Ronald Reagan was asked if he was born again he said he did not want to be associated with that belief. His denomination did not endorse the born again doctrine. But I am sure he would consider himself born again as far at the Bible was concerned, even if he did not endorse the doctrine of the Southern Baptist denomination that Carter belonged to. In some ways ID is a doctrine. Of course we believe that there is an Intelligent Designer. But that does not mean we endorse the doctrine of any given theory.

 

[Jazer]

If it's hard to tell between the body's natural healing abilities and divine intervention, then what makes you so such that there really is such a thing as 'divine healing'?

First of all even if Religion is a placebo effect we all know that placebos can be very effective. But to answer your question. God is able to do more then what the Body is able to do. More then what you would expect from a placebo or the power of suggestion. In the ministry I was in they call that restoration miracles. Aids would be a good example of that. People do not recover from Aids on their own apart from God. We have lots of testimony of people healed of Aids. Sometimes they even have medical reports in their hand when they give a testimony. But we do not have a lot in the way of medical documentation. Just testimonys. Which atheists as a general rule do not like to accept. We do have testimonys on the web site. BTW the pastor is 90 years old. He still runs a TV station, the Buffet, the Church and goes on Mission trips to Africa. Does anyone know of any 90 year old anywhere that is able to do all of that? At this point I would not be at all surprised if he goes another 10 years. Ernest Angley Ministries

 

[Naraoia]

That's why I'm considered to be smart...

By whom?

 

[Jazer]

And how do you know what God's original purpose and intention is?

When it comes to healing then science can tell you what healthy is. In fact modern science does a wonderful job of confirming that the dietary laws of Moses 3500 years ago are still accurate today. The Bible and the American Heart Association pretty much agree on what food we should be eating.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If it's hard to tell between the body's natural healing abilities and divine intervention, then what makes you so such that there really is such a thing as 'divine healing'?

All healing is miraculous. God built this miracle into his living creation. The great difference between God's healing and that attempted by man is that man forces healing on himself, while God's healing must be allowed to take place. Even doctors admit that while their medicine and proceedures indeed save the patient from death it is God's natural healing that restores the person to health. This is a miracle, plain and simple. If the healing mechanism were a product of evolution there would be no need for (most) doctors.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

So, since creationists and ID supporters purport that everything is designed, then how do we distinguish whether or not something is designed.

You would need something natural or not designed to compare to in order to determine another thing was designed.

Using the watch maker analogy, it's like finding the watch in a field of watches on a giant watch-planet.

Can we have that in logical form please?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That must be why for thousands of years the life expectancy was so low, the death rate of children was horrendous and disease killed people at will, all thanks to a wonderful God.

Strange that God only started taking the credit when science got going a few hundred years ago, prior to that we seemed to be on our own.

You might want to run some numbers on what would have happened if there were no 'premature' death. We (and the animals) would long ago have depleted all of earths food resources and starved to death en masse. You and I wouldn't be here to have this conversation. It is the 'premature' or 'untimely' death of countless millions (if not countless billions) of people and animals that have allowed succeeding generations to continue to exist.

Also, didn't God say that "The soul that sinneth shall die". Mortality caused by sin is a fact of our mortal life, as well as a metaphor for eternal death. To sin is to 'fall short' of what God wants for us. He has said that he wants longevity on earth for us ending in a peaceful death in 'a good old age'. Mankind simply refuses to live in such a way that would bring that blessing.

Also prior to modern medicine people acknowledged God and attributed premature death as being 'His Will' for that person. It would be well today to give God credit for raising up a medical system that prolongs life, often to that 'good old age'.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

All healing is miraculous. God built this miracle into his living creation. The great difference between God's healing and that attempted by man is that man forces healing on himself, while God's healing must be allowed to take place.

The body does indeed have a natural ability to heal itself, to a degree, but I disagree that this qualifies as a miracle. Even if God himself imbued the human body with the ability to heal, that's not really a miracle - not unless God himself is intervening to create every scab and scar.

Even doctors admit that while their medicine and proceedures indeed save the patient from death it is God's natural healing that restores the person to health.

I doubt doctor's would describe it like that.

This is a miracle, plain and simple.

Again, I disagree.

If the healing mechanism were a product of evolution there would be no need for (most) doctors.

How so? What makes you think that, if evolution were true, then we'd be able to self-mend broken bones and amputated limbs and suchlike?