If creationism is illogical why are we fighting it with logic?

Chalnoth

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2. They don't always fit into a strict nested hierarchy, but even if they did it does not falsify my position.
Yes they do. Always. Every time. And yes it does falsify your position, because your position does not forbid violation of a nested hierarchy. If your theory doesn't forbid something, then it must happen sometime. Since it never happens, and you have no explanation for why it doesn't happen, you're wrong. Absolutely and completely.

The only logical recourse you have at this point is to say that your god is a deceiver.
 
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Ondoher

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Isn't it reptiles-> dinosaurs-> birds rather than reptiles -> birds? I seem to remember that the anatomy of dinosaurs suggest that they're warm-blooded, thus disqualifying them for the "reptile"-status.
Taxonomy nowadays puts a strong emphasis on monophyly. The term reptile has an unfortunate history that makes little sense in the era of cladistics. The old classification of reptile would be paraphyletic as it would remove birds from this classification. I'm not sure if reptile is even an official taxon anymore. If so, it would have to include dinosaurs and birds to remain monophyletic
 
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Chalnoth

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I would rather use logic against illogic, than stoop to their level.
Well, it's the only hope that there really is. Consider that the scientific consensus became such through logic and evidence, but the religious worldviews became such through sort of a darwinian selection between competing religious ideas: those ideas which were most able to hang onto current members, and gether new followers, are the ones that came to dominate.

Thus we have a situation where religions dig deep emotional hooks into their followers, and they have gotten very good, over the last few thousand years of memetic evolution, at appealing to humans. There is really no hope for people who accept evolution to make evolution appeal emotionally to those who do not accept evolution. Logic is our only hope, and yes, it just flat-out won't work on many people. Our best hope, then, is just to improve education, specifically education in critical thinking and logic, and hope that these people come to the decision on their own after being shown the evidence.
 
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card

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Unfortunately they think they have all the evidence they need right now.
And to go slightly off subject, what is it with the Americans when it comes to religion,
any crazy with a new one can soon get a foothold in the US why is that?
is it something in your makeup that allows for that?
every whacky religion in the world seems to start or end up there.
 
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Chalnoth

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Unfortunately they think they have all the evidence they need right now.
And to go slightly off subject, what is it with the Americans when it comes to religion,
any crazy with a new one can soon get a foothold in the US why is that?
is it something in your makeup that allows for that?
every whacky religion in the world seems to start or end up there.
While I doubt your data, there are possible explanations. We have what is quite possibly the most diverse population of any single nation, and have had rather poor education compared to other developed nations for some years now. So a diverse population makes it easy for the "crazies" to find an audience, and lack of education doesn't arm people with the logic necessary to combat it.
 
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AV1611VET

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Anyone who does not believe in creationism is incapable of understanding why anyone in their right mind
would even contemplate believing in a theory that is so illogical, so why are we using logic in our arguments against it?

It is not "illogical" --- it is "spiritual":
  • [bible]1 Corinthians 15:48[/bible]
 
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Lilandra

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I started posting here about 2 years ago as an OEC Christian.

I knew next to nothing about evolution other than the caricature of it in my church and by my fundamentalist stepmother and father.

I don't recall it being taught in school with any depth.

I was ignorant of the evidence. Any human being even yourself is ignorant of something.

For example, I can still be rightly accused of being ignorant of the Theory of Relativity and many other scientific theories.

The only weapon capable of fighting ignorance is reason.

You can't assume right off the bat that people are unreasonable.
While under most circumstances I would agree with you, this in my opinion is not a subject that requires logic,
the people we are dealing with are using words like: Divinity, God, Faith, Bible and other such illogical
words, their heads are in the clouds with the birds and other cuckoos so you cannot get to them by using logic,
I don't know what to use but I just know it's not logic after all, it certainly wasn't logic that got them believing
the rubbish in the first place.
 
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Oncedeceived

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As to who came first, we know quite conclusively that fish evolved first, then amphibians from fish, then reptiles from amphibians, then mammals from reptiles, then birds from reptiles. I'm looking for the exact evidence that supports this, but this is the quite unanimous consensus.

It isn't as conclusive as you may think and it certainly isn't unanimous either. There have been fossils found in China that are dated prior to the dino extiniction. This means that some bird ancestors co-existed with non-avian dinosaurs.
 
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Oncedeceived

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First, I'd like to thank you for the response. Many people on the internet (not naming any specific examples :sorry:) dismiss posts with a one-liner. Second, upon rereading my post it was a bit more hostile than I intended it. The vast majority of exposure to the english language that I've had has been on the internet, and the internet is often a nasty place; I don't know many forms of saying things politely (ahum.. or im just a bit of an a-hole :p )

I would rather think that your first excuse is more accurate. :)
Anyway, the point about the "pasting" was that any story could be about any event as long as you can ignore enough 'details' (bit of a hyperbole, but still). For example, the story of Joan of Arc could be said to be about the 2004 US presidential elections, as long as you see Joan the warrior as Kerry the vietnam veteran, and the republican party as the evil masses who burned Kerry on the stake.

Uh, that is pretty much stretching this to breaking don't you agree?
This is ofcourse, ignoring extreme amounts of details (that couldn't even be called details anymore). But that was my point. When you ignore the things that don't fit, and just look at the things that do fit, many events can appear to be described by many stories.

I don't feel I am ignoring anything. I have noted that there are areas that are unconfirmed, but I have shown reasonable explanation for those areas as well.
And it's the same with the genesis creation story. It's explicitly stated that all winged birds were created on day 5, and it's explicitly stated that all land animals were created on day 6. Even when seeing the days as metaphors for ages, the order remains the same: first birds, then land animals.

There is evidence that birds were first. In fact, due to these finds it may be confirmed soon that birds did co-exist with non-avian dinosaurs which would then change the theory of bird evolution around.


Go ask any biologist, and he will tell you that birds evolved from earlier land animals.

I don't believe that it was ever thought that birds evolved from earlier land animals. I believe that it has been widely accepted that they evolved from dinosaurs. Now when I say widely accepted that does not mean that all scientists have agreed with this accessment. It has been a very heated debate for many many years.

Thus, the order that the Bible gives isn't compatible with the order that science gives.

The Bible gives a order that lists the general overview of creation. The fact that there are some that are not in the same order as scientists present is not as contridictory as you may think when you really research the information available. In recent years many standard evolutionary concepts have had to be reconstructed due to knew finds. The fossil evidence that we have today is very limited and is probably just the tip of the iceberg so to speak of the fossil remains undiscovered. It isn't to hard to understand that nothing is set in stone (no pun intended) as to possible finds, and how they might change the outlook of the order of life forms.



(here defining science as the vast majority of scientists in the field; not the one or two mathematicians who took a look at a fossil for 5 seconds and concluded that it couldn't have been a dino-bird transitional because it's obviously a full bird or obviously a full dino)

That does happen as shown with the once declared missing link that the National Geographic Society reported. It was later shown to be two individuals rather than the missing link they believed it to be.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Yes they do. Always. Every time.

Well you can say that yes, but you have to remember that this system was set up by men to describe the life forms they study and so they can and do put those life forms into the system even when they have a question as to where they should go.

And yes it does falsify your position, because your position does not forbid violation of a nested hierarchy. If your theory doesn't forbid something, then it must happen sometime. Since it never happens, and you have no explanation for why it doesn't happen, you're wrong. Absolutely and completely.

Well again, my position is not a scientific theory. It is my position on the interpretation of the Creation event. It doesn't precluded nested hierarchy nor does it really include it. To say that I am absolutely wrong (and completely) you are dismissing the position on your biases alone and nothing more. All that you and I can do is see the order in which the narrative gives and find if it is supported or not with the evidence in hand.

The only logical recourse you have at this point is to say that your god is a deceiver.

No, not at all. That has nothing to do with logic, it has more to do with your position rather than actual evidence for your statement.
 
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Ondoher

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It isn't as conclusive as you may think and it certainly isn't unanimous either. There have been fossils found in China that are dated prior to the dino extiniction. This means that some bird ancestors co-existed with non-avian dinosaurs.
How does that refute anything said?
 
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Mystman

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I don't believe that it was ever thought that birds evolved from earlier land animals. I believe that it has been widely accepted that they evolved from dinosaurs. Now when I say widely accepted that does not mean that all scientists have agreed with this accessment. It has been a very heated debate for many many years.

Dinosaurs are earlier land animals.

I searched around on the internet before my previous post, and found to my surprise that there is indeed a debate on where birds come from...

http://www.animalplanet.com.au/birds/origins/index.shtml

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v279/n5710/abs/279234a0.html

(the nature abstract 27 years old, but was the only "semi-official" thing I could find)

The thing is though: people are debating where the bird "branched off" from dinos, or dino ancestors.

Taking a simplified dino-family tree:
http://www.cr.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/dino/graphics/familytree_small.gif

The discussion focusses on the place of the 'bird family line' in a family tree like this (some people place the branching-off-point before the beginning of this tree).

Everything I've read though, places the branching off point firmly in the territory of land animals. One theory seems to be that birds came from crocodiles, and you could argue that crocodiles are marine animals, but in that theory, you would still have "true" land animals before you would have "true" birds.

Still, you're right that there is still a lot of fossil evidence to uncover, so the theories could still change around...

...but I don't know of any paleontologist who is searching for a fish-bird transitional. ;)
 
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Oncedeceived

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Dinosaurs are earlier land animals.

I searched around on the internet before my previous post, and found to my surprise that there is indeed a debate on where birds come from...

http://www.animalplanet.com.au/birds/origins/index.shtml

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v279/n5710/abs/279234a0.html

(the nature abstract 27 years old, but was the only "semi-official" thing I could find)

The thing is though: people are debating where the bird "branched off" from dinos, or dino ancestors.

Taking a simplified dino-family tree:
http://www.cr.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/dino/graphics/familytree_small.gif

The discussion focusses on the place of the 'bird family line' in a family tree like this (some people place the branching-off-point before the beginning of this tree).

Everything I've read though, places the branching off point firmly in the territory of land animals. One theory seems to be that birds came from crocodiles, and you could argue that crocodiles are marine animals, but in that theory, you would still have "true" land animals before you would have "true" birds.

Still, you're right that there is still a lot of fossil evidence to uncover, so the theories could still change around...

...but I don't know of any paleontologist who is searching for a fish-bird transitional. ;)

Good for you for researching prior to posting that shows you are wanting truth instead of just argument and wanting to win an argument for the sake of winning. Kudos to you. :)

Now what I have said and if you will look, it is not just land animals but mammals that we are talking about after birds. That is the part that you have missed. It is not fish-bird transitional that we are looking at but bird-mammal in the evolutionary worldview.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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It isn't as conclusive as you may think and it certainly isn't unanimous either. There have been fossils found in China that are dated prior to the dino extiniction. This means that some bird ancestors co-existed with non-avian dinosaurs.
Well of course! How can A evolve from B if all of B are dead?! There must have been early birds living with late dinosaurs.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Well of course! How can A evolve from B if all of B are dead?! There must have been early birds living with late dinosaurs.
We shouldn't think of it as an altogether linear process leading from A to B, either. First off, we're not dealing with hard-edged, immutable categories, but with gradual changes.
Second, the birth of a new species does not depend on the extinction of its ancestor at all - it's quite likely that separate branches of the same family evolve in different directions. The appearance of amphibian species didn't mark the extinction of all water-dwelling species that preceded them.
 
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