If Christ came to save.....

[Salsa_1960]

If Christ came to save, then what about those who came before Him. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc). Is that is what is meant when it is said that Christ went down into hell? And if so, where does it indicate that it was for this purpose?

And what about Elisha who entered Heaven before death?

 

[water_ripple]

Mark 12:1-11

The parable about a certain man planting a vineyard.

 

[Salsa_1960]

OK. I understand. But I meant in regards to the resurrection and salvation. Sorry. I should have specified that.

 

[lands21]

Good questions, I hve wondered this as well. I doubt they all went to hell, as David was called a man after God's heart. There are many other great examples as well.

I believe the sacrifices had something to do with it, am I correct?

 

[armothe]

If Christ came to save, then what about those who came before Him. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc). Is that is what is meant when it is said that Christ went down into hell? And if so, where does it indicate that it was for this purpose?

And what about Elisha who entered Heaven before death?

This might be going out on a limb....

- Heaven is the everlasting etheral place where God's presence resides.
- To be in God's presence requires one to be blameless in His sight.
- The only time a person can be blameless is when God no longer views that person as a sinner.
- Today we have Christ's redemptive plan to clean our sins.
- But what about prior to Christ?

My guess would be that the only way to enter heaven is if that person never sinned, thus appearing blameless in the sight of God. Which is why 99.9% of the people prior to Christ's finished redemptive work went to Hades.


-A

 

[lands21]

My guess would be that the only way to enter heaven is if that person never sinned, thus appearing blameless in the sight of God.

Then David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Samual all to hell? Does not make sense to me........

 

[armothe]

Then David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Samual all to hell? Does not make sense to me........

No, they went to Hades, or "the grave" as it was also called. Note that Samuel came out of the "ground" when summoned by the witch of Endor & Saul. He didn't come out of Heaven or Hell.

Hades was the place spirits went prior to the completion of Christ's redemptive work. If you read Revelation, you'll note that at the Second coming of Christ, Hades is finally done away with. Implying that from then on, souls either go to Heaven or Hell upon physical death.

-A

 

[lands21]

No, they went to Hades, or "the grave" as it was also called. Note that Samuel came out of the "ground" when summoned by the witch of Endor & Saul. He didn't come out of Heaven or Hell.

Hades was the place spirits went prior to the completion of Christ's redemptive work. If you read Revelation, you'll note that at the Second coming of Christ, Hades is finally done away with. Implying that from then on, souls either go to Heaven or Hell upon physical death.

-A

Please give the versus please and thank you.

 

[Benedicta00]

If Christ came to save, then what about those who came before Him. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc). Is that is what is meant when it is said that Christ went down into hell? And if so, where does it indicate that it was for this purpose?

And what about Elisha who entered Heaven before death?

It is Catholic tradition that tell us that Jesus ascended to the place of the dead where the holy souls awaited the savior to come. Tradition also says that after Jesus opened up heaven, St. Joseph was lead into heaven first by Christ with special honors.

 

[CopticOrthodox]

In the OT we have talk of the grave, or sheol, eg in the Psalms prayers like will the dust in the grave praise You? etc. In Revelation we have talk of the lake of fire, or Gahenna, into which the fallen angels and unrighteous will be cast at the end of time. We also have talk of Paradise, the Bosom of Abraham, and we have talk of the new Heaven at the end of time.

In the OT all went to the grave, none were saved since there is no salvation in the Law. The righteous waited there for Christ to come and set them free, the unrighteous waited there for thier judgment.

Christ descended to Hades, or the grave, see Eph 4:8-10. There He preached the Gospel to the OT saints waiting for Him, and He boke the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron asunder (Ps 107:16). He lead the rightous to Paradise.

Now when we depart we are judged and go either to Paradise to be with God and await the ressurection of the body when we will go with Christ to the Heavenly Jerusalem, or to the grave where we await being cast into the lake of fire.

Elijah and Enoc went to be with God, in fact they never died. But the Bible says that all flesh must taste death. They will yet be martyred, they are the two witnesses in the book of Revalation. God will send them to preach against the antichrist, they will be martyred, and they will stand in the general judgment, their bodies will be ressurected, and they will enter Heaven.

 

[armothe]

Please give the versus please and thank you.

Revelation 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Luke 16:22-23 - "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Acts 2:31 ..he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

-A

 

[Rafael]

Those of the Old Testament times looked forward to the promise as we look back to the cross and the work done at the cross by our Lord.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Time and eternity is a subject that comes into play like oil mixing with water. When we go into eternity there is no time. We will all meet before Him at some point in eternity. Does past and future have any place in eternity? Well, this may be where we get mixed up since we are used to thinking in linear terms and time, while God is able to step between the two with no problems. When I step into eternity, it may be like when a person in the past steps into it too - at the same time in eternity - does that make sense? See what I mean.

Leaving that behind, there is the verse about "leading captivity captive". This surely has significant meaning when Christ triumphed over death and took the keys of hell and death.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This does seem to imply some kind of captivity on the part of saints and their release.


2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[chosen1975]

I cannot give you the details of where they were, but here is an account of something that happened, and from what I understand this is no parable as Jesus used proper nouns



Luk 16:20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

Luk 16:21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Luk 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

I also believe that Abaham and the prophets etc. had the gospel preached to them while on earth, I'm not saying that they understood it as we do but they believed. I know that they looked foward to the coming Messiah.

Luk 2:25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

Luk 2:26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Notice how Simeon had been looking foward to the Lord's Christ
Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

I don't mean to take the scriptures out of context, but I think it can be concluded that Abraham believed the gospel
In you all the nations will be blessed
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
Anyway thats my view thanks

 

[Salsa_1960]

Thanks.


BTW. I like your color coding.

(I'm a visual learner FER SHER).

~Sandy

 

[colossi3]

This might be going out on a limb....

- Heaven is the everlasting etheral place where God's presence resides.
- To be in God's presence requires one to be blameless in His sight.
- The only time a person can be blameless is when God no longer views that person as a sinner.
- Today we have Christ's redemptive plan to clean our sins.
- But what about prior to Christ?

My guess would be that the only way to enter heaven is if that person never sinned, thus appearing blameless in the sight of God. Which is why 99.9% of the people prior to Christ's finished redemptive work went to Hades.


-A

colossi3: I beliebe that many OT people were saved by the Savior promised by God; Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. He was by no means the only one.

 

[1John5:3]

There are many grave errors about death.

Click on the links to access the contents below:


CONTENTS

1. The Great Argument
   1. Did God Say Man Would Die?
   2. Who Said Man Would Not Die?
2. The Wages Of Sin
   
   1. Are The Wages Of Sin Death?
   2. Are The Wages Of Sin The First Death Or Is There A Second Death?
3. Man’s Nature
   
   1. Does The Bible Say That Man Is Mortal (Can Die)?
      1. Is Man Mortal?
      2. Can Man Perish?
      3. Can Man Die?
      4. Can Man Be Destroyed?
      5. To What Does The Bible Compare Human Life?
   2. What Does The Bible Say About Eternal Life?
      
      1. Does Anyone Have Eternal Life Now?
      2. Is Eternal Life Conditional?
      3. What Attitude Should Man Have Towards Eternal Life?
      4. What Is The Source Of Eternal Life?
      5. Is Eternal Life A Gift?
      6. When Can The Righteous Expect To Receive The Gift Of Eternal Life?
      7. Does Satan And His Angels Have Eternal Life (Immortality)?
4. Man At Creation
   
   1. How Did God Create Man?
   2. Is Death The Reverse Of Creation?
      1. Does Man’s Form Return To Dust?
      2. Does Man’s Breath Return To God Who Gave It?
5. Man At Death
   
   1. Does The Bible Call Death Man’s Enemy?
   2. Where Do All Men Go At Death?
      1. Do All Men Go To The Grave?
      2. Do We Go Back To Dust?
   3. Does The Bible Say That Death Is Like A Sleep?
   4. How Does Death Compare With Sleep?
   5. What Else Does The Bible Call Death?
   6. Does The Intelligent, Thinking Part Of Man Live Somewhere Else After Death?
   7. Can The Dead Praise God?
   8. In The Grave, Does Man Have Any Awareness Of Anything, Anywhere?
      
      1. Are The Dead Aware Of Anything In Heaven?
      2. Are The Dead Aware Of Anything On This Earth?
      3. Are The Dead Aware Of Anything In Hell?
6. Man At Resurrection
   
   1. Did Those Resurrected In Bible Times Have A Story To Relate?
   2. Is A Resurrection Necessary?
   3. Does The Bible Speak Of Two Separate Resurrections?
   4. When Will The Righteous Dead Be Called From Their Sleep? (First Resurrection)
   5. Are The Righteous Changed Before The Resurrection Day?
   6. Are The Righteous Resurrected With A Body Like Christ’s?
      1. Will The Bodies Of The Righteous Be Changed To Be Like Christ’s?
      2. What Is The Body Of Christ Like?
   7. Will The Resurrected Righteous Ever Die Again?
   8. When Will The Wicked Be Called From Their Sleep? (Second Resurrection)
   9. Is The Resurrection The Gateway To Eternal Life For The Righteous Dead?
   10. Do The Dead And The Living Receive Their Reward At The Same Time?
7. The Spirit
   
   1. What Is The Spirit?
8. Man As A Soul
   
   1. What Is A Soul?
      1. What Can Be Learned, In The Bible, About The Word Soul?
      2. What Can Be Learned, From A Word Study, About The Word Soul?
         1. How Many Times Are The Words “Soul” and “Spirit” Used In The Bible?
         2. What Is “Soul” Translated From In The Old Testament?
         3. What Is “Soul” Translated From In The New Testament?
         4. What Are The Three Biblical Meanings Of The Word “Soul?”
         5. What Is The Soul Capable Of Doing?
   2. Can A Soul Die?
   3. Where Is The Soul At Death?
9. Communication With The Spirit World
   
   1. Can The Dead Communicate With The Living?
   2. Where Does The Communication Come From?
   3. What Does The Bible Say About Spiritualism?
10. Summary

 

[MikeMcK]

Sandy,

As has been alluded to here, there are several words used that are commonly translated into English as "Hell".

In our culture, when we say "Hell", it's usually assumed that we mean Gehenna, but Biblically, it can also mean Sheol, Hades, Abraham's Bosom, Tartarus, the grave, and another one that escapes me at the moment (bear with me, I'm finishing three terms papers all at the same time so my brain is a little fried).

We can assume that it's not Gehenna for a couple of reasons.

The first is that the Bible is clear that these were righteous, faithful Jews, so they most likely would not have been in Gehenna.

The second is that in Jesus' story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the angel tells the Rich Man that "there is a great gulf affixed between the two (the place of the dead and the world of the living) which cannot be crossed".

Now, this is speaking specifically of the dead contacting the living but I believe that we can assume that text to mean that Hell is permanent.

We had a great discussion about this here: http://www.gospelcom.net/kln/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=471&

 

[Tentmaker]

If Christ came to save, then what about those who came before Him. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc). Is that is what is meant when it is said that Christ went down into hell? And if so, where does it indicate that it was for this purpose?

And what about Elisha who entered Heaven before death?

The question pivots on the term, "save". Its use does not harmonize with New Covenant teachings. Or, simply put, Jesus' advent was not to "save" as is today imaged by Churchanity.

He who is called the Christ was sent as fulfillment of a divine promise. The promise was that a messiah would come and be a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) that would LIBERATE mankind from the living death of sin.

Hence, Christ does not "save". That was not the purpose of His mission. He may be better viewed as the Redeemer, but He is Way Shower, the Guide, the Liberator.

Cheers

 

[colossi3]

If Christ came to save, then what about those who came before Him. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc). Is that is what is meant when it is said that Christ went down into hell? And if so, where does it indicate that it was for this purpose?

And what about Elisha who entered Heaven before death?

colossi3: Please, what do you mean by "IF Christ came to save"?