If Calvinism is true....

[chestertonrules]

Well leaving out words of scripture to prove your point is noted and seen. You cannot show me in scripture where Jesus died for every man. I have shown this to you. He has died for every sin. HE became sin so that we might become the righteousness of HIM...

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
  For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

 

[MamaZ]

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

• 
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• 
  For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

Read in context Chester..
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[heymikey80]

Here is a typical statement by a Calvinist, If Christ died for all, then all would go to heaven. Sheer nonsense, and they know it. For example Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, but that in no way says everyone has received the benefits of that propitiation. But that is the Calvinist claim.

And yet again, without any reference to scripture the false doctrine of the "gift of pre-salvation faith" is proclaimed.

Then we get evasion, they say the question was not asked correctly so it will not be answered. LOL Did God intend to make the propitiation available to the whole world? Of course.

Christ did not propitiate the whole world, everyone has not received the benefits of the propitiation He provides for the whole world. His intent was to provide the propitiation for the whole world and He did with 100 percent success. He intended for the propitiation to be available to whoever believes in Him, anyone in the whole world.

And note that no Calvinist, not one of the three answered the question "How did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world." The answer is Christ died for the whole world. But that truth from scripture is rejected by Calvinism.

Is it just the general method of attack to lie? It seems the technique here is to lie so egregiously, that the gaps in anti-Calvinist theology must be left back in order to correct its lies about Calvinism.

Is the only way to find Calvinism to be false, to lie about it?

If so, what does that say about the truth of Calvinism?

 

[beloved57]

Christ did not propitiate the whole world, everyone has not received the benefits of the propitiation He provides for the whole world. His intent was to provide the propitiation for the whole world and He did with 100 percent success. He intended for the propitiation to be available to whoever believes in Him, anyone in the whole world.

This is a false doctrinal remark..Propitiation is not made available, to who ? God is the one who is propitiated on behalf of His choen people..Propitiation was not made available to God, thats nonsense..

 

[nobdysfool]

Is it just the general method of attack to lie? It seems the technique here is to lie so egregiously, that the gaps in anti-Calvinist theology must be left back in order to correct its lies about Calvinism.

Is the only way to find Calvinism to be false, to lie about it?

If so, what does that say about the truth of Calvinism?

I notice it got real quiet after you posted this....

The standard OP of the anti-Calvinists is to try and keep Calvinists on the defensive at all times, to prevent them from asking the questions and pointing out the inconsistencies that would cause their anti-Calvinist false doctrines to collapse under their own weight.

Keeping Calvinists on the defensive includes outright lies, falsehoods, accusations of sinful behavior, and the mindless repetition of unproven and unsupported statements over and over again, in the hope that somehow they will become true, or be perceived as true by the unwary, and naive.

I have the feeling that some of them are so insistent and rabid about their opposition because they have the secret fear that someone, somewhere, might be accepting Calvinist theology without opposition.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I wonder how long anti-calvinists will stay quiet or would they come back and say they finally understand calvinism doctrines (whether they agree or not).

 

[chestertonrules]

I wonder how long anti-calvinists will stay quiet or would they come back and say they finally understand calvinism doctrines (whether they agree or not).

Quiet?

Are you kidding. The scripture is so full of passages that expose the flaws of Calvinism that we can post for years(and some probably have).

Calvinists are dogmatic and unable to accept crystal clear scriptures that expose their flaws.

Your only recourse is to claim that when the bible says all men, it really doesn't mean all men.



I have been very careful to quote multiple and respected Calvinist sources when refuting the doctrines of Calvinism.


Calvinists are ashamed of much of their doctrinal baggage, apparently, so they insist that those who disagree with Calvinism are distorting their beliefs.

Calvinists don't believe that God loves the world, even though this is what the bible tells us. Calvinists don't believe that Jesus died to bring life to all men, even though this is what the bible says. Calvinists don't believe that our actions and deeds impact our salvation, even though this is what the bible teaches us and warns us about. Calvinists don't believe that there is ANYTHING a person can do that will gain them salvation unless God chose them from before the creation of the universe with no concern for their seeking him, his will, or his forgiveness.. This means that God created billions of people with the express purpose of sending them to hell. Of course, the bible tells us that God wants all men to be saved, so again, Calvinists must ignore the bible in order to hold on to their dogma.

 

[nobdysfool]

Quiet?

Are you kidding. The scripture is so full of passages that expose the flaws of Calvinism that we can post for years(and some probably have).

Calvinists are dogmatic and unable to accept crystal clear scriptures that expose their flaws.

Your only recourse is to claim that when the bible says all men, it really doesn't mean all men.



I have been very careful to quote multiple and respected Calvinist sources when refuting the doctrines of Calvinism.


Calvinists are ashamed of much of their doctrinal baggage, apparently, so they insist that those who disagree with Calvinism are distorting their beliefs.

Calvinists don't believe that God loves the world, even though this is what the bible tells us. Calvinists don't believe that Jesus died to bring life to all men, even though this is what the bible says. Calvinists don't believe that our actions and deeds impact our salvation, even though this is what the bible teaches us and warns us about. Calvinists don't believe that there is ANYTHING a person can do that will gain them salvation unless God chose them from before the creation of the universe with no concern for their seeking him, his will, or his forgiveness.. This means that God created billions of people with the express purpose of sending them to hell. Of course, the bible tells us that God wants all men to be saved, so again, Calvinists must ignore the bible in order to hold on to their dogma.

All of this spoken from the standpoint that you couldn't possibly be wrong, that your take on things is 100% flawless and without error, and that you, and you alone, are qualified to run down Calvinists and Calvinism, and that the normal rules of respect, civility, and common courtesy don't apply to you, and don't apply to your crusade against Calvinism.

Every criticism you level against us applies equally well to your Catholic beliefs. This is truly a case of the pot (you) calling the kettle (Calvinists) black.

You are no expert on Calvinism, any more than I'm an expert on Catholicism. Your time would be much better spent elsewhere.

 

[chestertonrules]

All of this spoken from the standpoint that you couldn't possibly be wrong, that your take on things is 100% flawless and without error, and that you, and you alone, are qualified to run down Calvinists and Calvinism, and that the normal rules of respect, civility, and common courtesy don't apply to you, and don't apply to your crusade against Calvinism.

Every criticism you level against us applies equally well to your Catholic beliefs. This is truly a case of the pot (you) calling the kettle (Calvinists) black.

You are no expert on Calvinism, any more than I'm an expert on Catholicism. Your time would be much better spent elsewhere.

Feel free to demonstrate the error in my understanding of scripture.

So far, none of you have made compelling cases for your dogma.

 

[nobdysfool]

Feel free to demonstrate the error in my understanding of scripture.

So far, none of you have made compelling cases for your dogma.

Actually, you've made it quite clear that in your estimation, no Calvinist could ever be right, no matter what they say. So, most of us don't see any point in trying to convince you of that which you're certain we're wrong about. Your attitude and posts reek of such arrogance.

The rightness of our position does not rest on what we say. Therefore, refusal to be drawn into a pointless argument about it does not indicate lack of ability to defend on our part, but rather a realization that you are not willing or able to receive it, and actually stands as a testament against you, not against Calvinism. Quite frankly, we do know the difference between possibility and impossibility. In your case, it's impossible, apart from God monergistically changing your heart. We'll pray for that to happen, and save our breath in the meantime.

 

[chestertonrules]

Actually, you've made it quite clear that in your estimation, no Calvinist could ever be right, no matter what they say. So, most of us don't see any point in trying to convince you of that which you're certain we're wrong about. Your attitude and posts reek of such arrogance.

The rightness of our position does not rest on what we say. Therefore, refusal to be drawn into a pointless argument about it does not indicate lack of ability to defend on our part, but rather a realization that you are not willing or able to receive it, and actually stands as a testament against you, not against Calvinism. Quite frankly, we do know the difference between possibility and impossibility. In your case, it's impossible, apart from God monergistically changing your heart. We'll pray for that to happen, and save our breath in the meantime.

In my opinion, Calvinists are right about a great many things. That's not what we are discussing here, however.

I have provided clear scripture which disproves the Calvinist dogmas of perseverence of the saints, limited atonement, and unconditional election, and irresistible grace.

You must ignore these scriptures to maintain your system of Christianity.

 

[nobdysfool]

In my opinion, Calvinists are right about a great many things. That's not what we are discussing here, however.

I have provided clear scripture which disproves the Calvinist dogmas of perseverence of the saints, limited atonement, and unconditional election, and irresistible grace.

You must ignore these scriptures to maintain your system of Christianity.

Well, "damning with faint praise" doesn't cut it. You are entitled to your opinions, but realize that they are only your opinions, and not universally shared. I am not ignoring any scriptures. The same charge could be leveled at you in regard to your Catholic beliefs. You have disproven nothing.

 

[chestertonrules]

Well, "damning with faint praise" doesn't cut it. You are entitled to your opinions, but realize that they are only your opinions, and not universally shared. I am not ignoring any scriptures. The same charge could be leveled at you in regard to your Catholic beliefs. You have disproven nothing.

One more time:

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• Is this limited atonement? Absolutely not.

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm not chasing down your rabbit trails. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't have the knowledge, or the understanding to see scripture as a whole, you just cherry-pick what you want, and ignore the rest. Context, and harmony of scripture are all lost on you. Proof-texting is a poor way to arrive at right understanding.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In my opinion, Calvinists are right about a great many things. That's not what we are discussing here, however.

I have provided clear scripture which disproves the Calvinist dogmas of perseverence of the saints, limited atonement, and unconditional election, and irresistible grace.

You must ignore these scriptures to maintain your system of Christianity.

In the interests of civility, it would be pleasant for a change if you could ennumerate the great many things of which Calvinists are right. You have mentioned four of the five major doctrines of Calvinism with which you disagree. That leaves one with which you apparently agree. Are there other things, as well?

 

[chestertonrules]

In the interests of civility, it would be pleasant for a change if you could ennumerate the great many things of which Calvinists are right. You have mentioned four of the five major doctrines of Calvinism with which you disagree. That leaves one with which you apparently agree. Are there other things, as well?

Calvinists believe in the Trinity, Salvation through Jesus, Christian moral teaching, Heaven, Hell, etc.

Most of our views are the same.

The details are where the differences lie. Although these differences are important, we should debate them with the understanding that we are united in our love of God and our appreciation of the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinists believe in the Trinity, Salvation through Jesus, Christian moral teaching, Heaven, Hell, etc.

Most of our views are the same.

The details are where the differences lie. Although these differences are important, we should debate them with the understanding that we are united in our love of God and our appreciation of the sacrifice of Jesus.

So, then if you really believe that, then you will no longer trash Calvinists, and Calvinism, will you? You will respectfully deal with it. Otherwise, you will incur some truly upsetting views of your Catholic beliefs, and how they deny and go against scripture. If you want respect, you must give it.

 

[chestertonrules]

So, then if you really believe that, then you will no longer trash Calvinists, and Calvinism, will you? You will respectfully deal with it. Otherwise, you will incur some truly upsetting views of your Catholic beliefs, and how they deny and go against scripture. If you want respect, you must give it.

I will continue to consitently expose and explain the dogmas of Calvinism which I believe are false, unbiblical, and potentially dangerous for the world.

I believe Calvinism can lead to despair. A person might turn from God if they feel separated from him at some point in their life under the false assumption that they are not one of the elect.

I believe that Calvinism can lead to separation from God by the false notion that our deeds and actions don't impact our salvation. I believe that a believer in Calvinist doctrine might not take their sins or inaction seriously enough and therefore they could jeopardize their salvation.


I believe that Calvinists reject the Church founded by Jesus to be our guide on earth.


This doesn't mean Calvinists as individuals are bad people. My attacks on Calvinism are meant to help these individuals.

 

[nobdysfool]

I will continue to consitently expose and explain the dogmas of Calvinism which I believe are false, unbiblical, and potentially dangerous for the world.

I believe Calvinism can lead to despair. A person might turn from God if they feel separated from him at some point in their life under the false assumption that they are not one of the elect.

I believe that Calvinism can lead to separation from God by the false notion that our deeds and actions don't impact our salvation. I believe that a believer in Calvinist doctrine might not take their sins or inaction seriously enough and therefore they could jeopardize their salvation.


I believe that Calvinists reject the Church founded by Jesus to be our guide on earth.


This doesn't mean Calvinists as individuals are bad people. My attacks on Calvinism are meant to help these individuals.

You catch a lot more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. You won't find much reception from people if you insult them, and trash their beliefs. People on the defensive are not listening. You justify your lack of people skills by your supposedly good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We have been very restrained in our criticism of your Catholic beliefs. If you continue insulting Calvinists and Calvinism, we can begin to examine the clearly unbiblical beliefs of the Catholic Church. Are you sure you want to go there? We can start talking about pedophile priests, Mary worship, etc. and go from there.

 

[chestertonrules]

You catch a lot more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. You won't find much reception from people if you insult them, and trash their beliefs. People on the defensive are not listening. You justify your lack of people skills by your supposedly good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We have been very restrained in our criticism of your Catholic beliefs. If you continue insulting Calvinists and Calvinism, we can begin to examine the clearly unbiblical beliefs of the Catholic Church. Are you sure you want to go there? We can start talking about pedophile priests, Mary worship, etc. and go from there.

I've told you where I stand.

Feel free to challenge Catholic Doctrine, or point out that Catholics are sinners.

I welcome challenges.