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so if we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ouselves but a gift from God. Why would the scriptures not say. We are saved by grace not of our selves but a gift from God through faith?
I am not the one confused..
This is just a rehash of another identical posting.
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7246281&page=5
Van said:2. If perseverance of the saints is true, then no amount of subsequent sins will separate a person from the love of God. Yes, that is true, but if a person practices lawlessness, that is evidence they were never set aside (thus never a saint). In other words, this is a "have you stopped beating your wife" question where neither yes or no presents the truth.
Chestersonrules said:These verses seem to indicate to me that a person can be a true follower of Christ and be "saved" but still later walk away and lose that salvation:
2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."
2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".
Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."
We will always face them no matter what.Of course. They have nothing new or original to say. They just keep repeating the same tired old canards over and over again, hoping that somehow they will become true if they just say them enough times....I am convinced that the anti-Calvinists actually believe in "magic".
Jmacvols said:But everyone "practices lawlessness" i.e., sins and this includes you. Therefore your sins are evidence that you were never set aside (thus never a saint)? If not, why does this not apply to you but only to others?
Originally Posted by Van
2. If perseverance of the saints is true, then no amount of subsequent sins will separate a person from the love of God. Yes, that is true, but if a person practices lawlessness, that is evidence they were never set aside (thus never a saint). In other words, this is a "have you stopped beating your wife" question where neither yes or no presents the truth.No, everyone sins, but everyone does not "practice" sin or lawlessness. Jesus said in Matthew 7:23, He never knew those who "practiced lawlessness." So when we strive to practice righteousness, and stumble, we are not practicing sin.
You should be aware by now that I respond in the manner I'm addressed, or haven't you noticed?
pshaw.I have been reading and see that you all keep repeating the mantra, while not EVER addressing the veracity of it, that faith given to the regenerate is a gift.
That cannot be found in scripture to be true; to be believed. Believing it causes the rest of the Bible to be skewed to your understanding.
Trouble is, it's not misread.When pointed out that Eph.2:8 is mis-read by you [all] you ignore it and keep on truckin'.
Sorry, the resolution derived from this issue is that faith is the gift of God.Until that issue is resolved, nothing on this forum will be worthwhile discussing. By "resolve" I mean that it must be argued out to a conclusion to be the truth that faith is not a gift from God for salvation otherwise, for me, you all just aren't sincere. Argue it out to the truth of it and be willing to be adjusted by that truth.
To the logically uninitiate, I ask, please find out the range of options other than black or white.To the really insincere, I ask, please don't come back with a denial as to this being factually what you do.
Were grace the sole reference: neuter could not possibly be used. Period. Plus semantically Paul would just be talking in circles. Grace (dfn: favor -- unmerited) bringing something can't but be a gift. When we talk about Xarisma, the product of grace, it is invariably a gift. Something brought out of unmerited favor is a gift.Grace is the gift, not faith. It is only the reprobate who cannot believe for it and receive the gift of God's Grace. That's good Bible.
Hello Mikey and Ormly,
I hate to jump into the middle of a discussion like this, but there are some things I feel I must say concerning Mikey’s last post (post #32 in this thread).
Mikey, please tell me where you are getting your information concerning the Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8. Here is why I am asking. I have done some study of this text in the past, and I have even discussed it online with a Greek seminary professor. Now here is the problem I have. I agree that the neuter article does not match the gender of either noun (faith or grace) which precedes it. But I disagree with your statement that therefore both these (faith and grace) are the gift(s) spoken of. Here is the reason I disagree: from what I have read, and from my conversation online, when a neuter article is used in this fashion, it is used to refer to the entire phrase (not just a single noun in that phrase). Now Ephesians 2:8 says,
"For by grace you have been saved through (or by) faith, this is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift."
Many Greek scholars have pointed out that the gift referred to is "being saved by faith." So faith is not the gift here, or at least the Greek does not state such a thing, but what it does state is that a particular type of salvation, a being saved by faith, is a God’s gift. So this verse in no way promotes "faith" as a gift. The source of faith in not stated, but I believe the consensus of scripture is that faith is man’s part of the salvation equation. We can debate this if you like, but the Greek in Ephesians 2:8 does not support your claim that "faith" is a gift. Sorry to jump in like this, but I couldn’t let this post slide without comment. I hope no offense is taken. We should all be about determining what is true in scripture, and I believe, Mikey, that someone has feed you some bad information concerning this verse.
Sincerely,
Wizzer
Here's a short list I can produce readily.Hello Mikey and Ormly,
I hate to jump into the middle of a discussion like this, but there are some things I feel I must say concerning Mikeys last post (post #32 in this thread).
Mikey, please tell me where you are getting your information concerning the Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8. Here is why I am asking.
Here's a short list I can produce readily.
My own Greek prof., TM Moore
NT Wright.
W. Robertson Nicoll, who cites three native speakers of NT Greek who flatly state that it refers to faith through the grammar, and then he takes the wider view that it refers inclusively to salvation, of which faith is a part.
(Nicoll further points out that Paul never uses "dia" to talk about faith as a cause, but only uses the accusative noun, indicating the instrumentality of faith -- not faith as the cause or basis or ground.)
John Chrysostom, one of the earliest Greek exegetes.
Theodosius.
Handley Moule.
R.C. Sproul, who is emphatic that "the rules of Greek syntax and grammar demand that the antecedent of that be the word faith."
----
There's also a semantic problem with saying this is a system of "saved by faith", still permits faith to be "of yourselves". It thwarts what Paul is trying to establish here. When only part of his statement is "not of yourselves", then Paul really had no reason to state, "and that [one sense] not of yourselves." He's not warning people away from anything.
But in reality Paul's emphasis is constant and repeated: saved by grace, not of yourselves, not of works, and through faith. To take one of these and say, "Well, this one, faith, is really of yourselves", that thwarts precisely Paul's statement: "not of yourselves". He's repeated himself for emphasis, overlapping the concepts so he gets full coverage.
Moule points out "and that" (kai touto) is an idiom for emphasizing something especially important about what's gone before, as in 1 Cor 6:8 and Pp 1:28. It doesn't demand proper gender alignment. It refers to the concept as a whole, but is emphatic about an important attribute of that entire concept especially applying to it.
And so Chrysostom:
In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise thee too high, observe how he brings thee down: by grace ye have been saved, saith he,Of course not even Calvinism asserts faith as a monergistic gift, as if "God could believe for us". That's outside the realm of reality, and Reformed thought denies it as well. (cf. Murray, "Redemption Accomplished and Applied", "Faith and Repentance", p. 106, quoted a number of times -- if you want the quote PM me, I'll add it as well, but I consider it further afield of this conversation.)
Through faith;
Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,
And that not of ourselves.
Neither is faith, he means, of ourselves. Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? for how, saith he, shall they believe, unless they hear? (Rom. x. 14.) So that the work of faith itself is not our own.
It is the gift, said he, of God, it is not of works.
Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, saith he, hath required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saveth, but it is because God so willeth, that faith saveth. Since, how, tell me, doth faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.
So what do you really have here? Native Middle Greek speakers said, "It's about even faith not being of ourselves." You have three Greek exegetes, two otherwise antagonistic, agreeing on this point.
Here's a short list I can produce readily.
My own Greek prof., TM Moore
NT Wright.
...
The saving faith and the faith to believe in God comes only from God. "Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17). Ephesians 2:8 says, "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Saving faith is a divine gift, not a human work. Looking at Romans 10:17 says in the original Greek, "Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ." Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ, not a subjective analysis about what's going on in yourself.
Theologian B. B. Warfield said, "The saving power of faith resides thus not in itself, but in the Almighty Savior on whom it rests. It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but that Christ saves through faith." God grants us faith and that faith is evidenced by our walking in the good works that "God has prepared beforehand" for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10).
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