If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?

[BigBadWlf]

You're interrupting, which means you're ignoring the point as a whole. I've already refuted this assertion, you've offered no further reasoning.

You are the one who compared an entire minority to murders, you could at least be man enough to admit what you posted for all to see.

I think they're precisely the kind of people Jesus was referring to when he said in Mat 7:21-23 [bible]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' [/bible]

And how exactly are they different from you?

This belongs in political discussion, not ethics and morals discussion. Support? No, but no American should be denied life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I would simply prefer they not try to equate homosexual unions with marriage. As for the 1500 federal laws, well it's been said that the more numerous a government's laws, the deeper its corruption. We've digressed enough on this thread, I think, but if you really want to know, I'll answer these questions in a political thread.

So your earlier claim was false. Thank you for clearing that up

Saying something repeatedly in an attempt to enforce its truth is a Fascist tactic, and has no basis in reason. If you'd like to cite where specifically I made this association, fine. Do that.

Are you really trying to pretend that you didn’t post:

“God has also created people who have an uncontrollable, seemingly unchangeable nature to kill other people, would you say murder is ok? God created each person with different desires, different impulses which are not good or bad in themselves. I have a desire to be loved, and that's not wrong, nor necessarily right. It's how I go about being loved that is right or wrong. If I extend my love to others, that's more right than trying to violently force people to love me. For some people it feels natural to steal, some to lie, some to have sex with partners who aren't their husband or wife, some to murder, and so on. Right and wrong aren't based on what's natural to do. If it were, the natural behavior would be to do what is right in the first place.

God creates the homosexual, but the homosexual decides to sin against God. It's the same with the rest of us, there are certain sins that tempt each of us more than others. Acting on that temptation is wrong no matter how ingrained in us or addictive it is.”

Yeah, we're getting nowhere here. It's not prejudice, it's ethics, which you might have noticed is the point of this thread being placed in the category of ethics and morality.

You didn’t answer my questions:

You claimed that somehow Satan was responsible for the views and motivations of racists but you, naturally, are not Just as despite the same tactics and motivations to justify prejudice those attacking gays and lesbians in exactly the same ways as racists attack non-whites are somehow not motivated by hate (but those racists are). SO once again:

And the people who use the bible to condemn gays and lesbians are motivated by what exactly?

Why should we assume that the motivation in using the bible to justify prejudice against one minority is somehow different from the motivation in using the bible to justify prejudice against a different minority?

Can you explain why one group is morally superior to the other?

Specifically attempted? You do not know my intentions. We're not even having a reasonable discourse here. It's like you're not even trying to understand my points, you just read out of them whatever ideas help you attack my position.

See above

How clever. . . If you had any understanding of scripture, that might be a good point coming from you. . . I'm sure what I said correlates to scripture, but it's not a direct quote, just a point of reasoning.

All I know is what you posted

No mention of my faith? Really? You don't remember insulting or vilifying Christianity or the bible? I have made obvious statements about my faith from which my standpoints come from. You attack my viewpoint as some kind of racist tactic, you attack my faith by association.

Comparing minorities to murders is part of your faith?

Just say it over and over til it's true, huh?

Does your response here mean you cannot come up with any justifications for your anti-gay prejudice that were are not also employed by racists?

 

[SughaNSpice]

You're interrupting, which means you're ignoring the point as a whole. I've already refuted this assertion, you've offered no further reasoning.

You denied you wrote what you wrote - that ain’t refuting anything sweetie

This belongs in political discussion, not ethics and morals discussion. Support? No, but no American should be denied life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I would simply prefer they not try to equate homosexual unions with marriage. As for the 1500 federal laws, well it's been said that the more numerous a government's laws, the deeper its corruption. We've digressed enough on this thread, I think, but if you really want to know, I'll answer these questions in a political thread.

My parents and grandparents can tell you a lot about how people would prefer to not be equal to people with my skin color – same old tune and we heard it all before

How clever. . . If you had any understanding of scripture, that might be a good point coming from you. . . I'm sure what I said correlates to scripture, but it's not a direct quote, just a point of reasoning.

You do realize that wolf here is one of the better scholars hanging around here don’t you?

 

[JediMobius]

Polygamy is pretty much the standard example of marriage in the bible.
It was something the patriarchs engaged in.

If you remember, I was talking about God's guidelines for marriage, not what he permitted men to do.

Exodus 21:10 provides the rules for marrying more than one woman

Moses made a concession for divorce, maybe he made one for multiple wives as well. Either way, this doesn't show God's model of marriage. In this chapter, God isn't mentioned until verse 13.

Deuteronomy 21:15 details the rules for inheritance for the children of a man with multiple wives. The son of the favored wife gets the inheritance

Again, not what God says, it's an IF. According to the rules in Exodus 21:10, the second wife's "food, her clothing, and her duty of marriage shall not be lessened." That takes a lot of attention from one man to handle two wives according to the law, I doubt it was an exploit to be taken lightly, especially compared to the commitment of marrying just one woman.

Deuteronomy 25:5 explains how if a woman dies without having had a male child she was to be shipped off to her brother in law to be married as his second or their wife. This is the Levirate marriage. The Latin word levir is the equivalent of the Hebrew yabam, which means brother-in-law. Jesus gave his implicit blessing to such marriages in Matthew 22:23-32

Oh, so by completely bypassing the question into the heart of the matter, which was the resurrection of the dead, he gave his implicit blessing? Jesus addressed the more important issue, the point of the question, how does that imply his blessing? If anything, the matter of the Levirate marriage is of little consequence in the face of eternity, but that's neither here nor there.

Jesus also uses polygamy in his parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13.

Well, if anyone can handle more than one wife without neglecting a single one, that would be Jesus. I'm pretty sure the virgins represent the virgin Israel - that whole metaphor about all of us Christians being Christs bride. . . it's a bit out of context for what we're talking about, which is God's original guideline for marriage.

Solomon’s problem was not his 700 wives (and 300 concubines) but rather that some of his wives were foreigners 1 Kings 11:1-4 “They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love.

As we clearly see in 1 Kings 11:2, the marriage of multiple wives by itself is not sinful and was never condemned. It was Solomon's marriage from the pagan women that was prohibited by

He wouldn't have had any foreign wives if he only had one, would he? Even if he stopped at the first hundred. Also, according to the rules in exodus 21:10, it would be simply amazing for Solomon to handle his 700 wives without problems arising. We don't get to read about them, but they were probably there.

As for David. 1 Kings 15:5 clearly states that David’s only sin was in having Uriah killed so he could have Bathsheba. His marriage to all those other women was not a sin. His affair with Bathsheba was not a sin. His marriage to Bathsheba wasn’t a sin.

I didn't say it was a sin to have multiple wives, I said (primarily) it's not what God intended, and (secondarily) it causes problems. His marriage to Bathsheba caused him to sin. Had David stuck to one wife in the first place, he wouldn't have lusted after Bathsheba (which is a sin, whether stated in that particular chapter or not) to the point of making her his wife .

When one reads the bible it is obvious God approves of ploagamy. As the author of the bible he refers to the women who were the second or third or the hundrenth married to a man all as ‘wives’

Abraham, Lamech, Esau, Jacob, Gideon, Ashur, Rehoboam, all had multiple wives…and God called them all wives.

…or are you saying God didn’t know what he was talking about?

God is not the author of the bible, men authored the bible, God provided the material to write in it (for the most part, the law was apparently something Moses had to do because the Israelites' hearts were hardened and they just didn't get it from the first ten commandments.) and God was the publisher who made sure that what he wanted in was in, and what he didn't want in the bible didn't go in.

Well of course these women were referred to as wives, they were. I never denied polygamy in the bible, I said it wasn't God's intention. God's approval
of polygamy only goes so far as to permit it. Until you offer a verse about polygamy as from the mouth of God himself, it is not his idea, but man's, which he allowed without punishment.

Have you read the bible?
Try reading Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Judges 5:30 to start with

Judges 21:10-24 - totally not God's idea, men were scheming. . . it's a fairly involved story
Numbers 31:7-18 - Moses made a lot of allowances for the stupid things men did
This is the meat of it you're getting at: Num 31:18 "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." The Hebrew word used here, according to Strong's numbers means: causatively to revive: - keep (leave, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

Moses told them to keep alive, that is nourish and revive, these women children as daughters! Why on earth would a Godly man like Moses ever condone something as wicked as giving women children over to men in the way you assumed? The virgin women were the most likely group of people to be the least corrupted by Israel's enemy, and so they were integrated into the family rather than killed.

Next time you're going to list off a bunch of verses which you think apply to what you're saying, research them first. The rest I'll leave alone, because I don't think it's fair that I should have to research the verses you try to use.

So you are saying there are True Christians™ and all the rest. May I venture to guess thath you think all True Christians™ agree with you and anyone who dares to disagree is by definition a not True Christians™

Well of course, many are called, few are chosen, right? Just as the pharisees were hypocrites, so are plenty of Christians. A Christian who doesn't follow the teaching of Christ is not a true Christian at all, but they continue to call themselves that.

Thank you for putting words into my mouth, but I'd rather say them myself. If you mean that may way is the way put forth in the bible, then yeah, anyone who doesn't read the word and put it into practice doesn't have it right. The ones who aren't even Christians are those who simply ignore what God says, but put up a Christian front anyway.

Do you mean the baseless assertion you just agreed with?

Uhhh, you said "Which doesn’t explain why conservative Christians have the highest divorce rates"

I was asking for figures on the quote which the question was under, and I was wondering if Christians really do have the highest divorce rate. . . although it would make some sense, I don't think many muslim couples would often dare devorce, and I figure plenty of people who have no theistic religion don't get married and just sleep around with whoever for however long.

 

[JediMobius]

First of all, are you Christian or not? Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God.

Even if you don't agree that God himself caused the bible to be written by man as God wanted it to be written, this is from Moses who met with God on the mountain. God's nature doesn't change, so if it was an abomination to God several thousand years ago, it still must be. I don't understand how you can be Christian, and defend an obvious sin.

You are the one who compared an entire minority to murders, you could at least be man enough to admit what you posted for all to see.

Let's go back to the original context where this started

I said:

God has also created people who have an uncontrollable, seemingly unchangeable nature to kill other people, would you say murder is ok?"

You said:

Racists have used this same tactic for generations. To help justify hatred and discrimination racists will try to associate blacks with criminals just as you are trying to associate gays and lesbians with murders thieves and lairs. It is a sad and hateful thing when racists do this and it is no different when you make use of the same tactic

Your use of the word association from this point, because of the weight you put on it, carries an extremely negative connotation and ceases to have the original definition. Associate here, as you've used it, means roughly "to compare out of discrimination and hate two like things to make the former seem as depraved as the latter." So, no thank you, I refuse to answer this loaded question of "Isn't that what you said," because it is not hateful to point out that which God finds to be an abomination, it is obedience to God. Neither is it discrimination, it's not as though I see homosexuals as "untouchable." Before I came to know Christ, I was probably a worse sinner than most of the gay men I've known.

If you look, you will see this is not some tactic, but a reply in kind to the title. To rephrase, asking "If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?" is like asking "If murder is a sin, then why did God create murderers." Which he didn't, he created men with the propensity to be tempted into murder, which by their own actions men did. It is the same with homosexuality. It is a choice, if it were not a choice, it wouldn't be a sin.

I also replied further:

Wow. It's not even the same tactic, I neither want to see homosexuals lynched, nor persecuted in any way. In effect, I associated homosexuals with everyone else who has ever lived. No one's perfect, we're all liars, or lusters, or something imperfect. All Christians were trapped in some kind of sin before freed from it by Christ. I have no delusions of superiority.

By this, I showed the association I did make without all the laden connotation you had poured into the word. To expound, sin is sin. Man made up the rules as to which sin is worse than another. God has his own system. God finds it detestable for a man to lie with a man like he would with a woman. That seems like God has a pretty big problem with this sin. How many sins are labelled as detestable by God?

And how exactly are they different from you?

If you ever have a chance to judge by my fruits, go ahead.

So your earlier claim was false. Thank you for clearing that up.

Why must you be so smug? It's one thing to oppose sin, it's another to impose my beliefs so as to infringe on one's rights as a citizen of this country. Homosexuals can be gay if they want to, just don't pretend it's the same as heterosexual marriage, cuz it's not. Likewise, if a man wants to be prideful and selfish, that's his perogative, but I won't pretend it's not sinful. I will not sit back and be quiet while sin is being so widely accepted and embraced.

You didn’t answer my questions:

You haven't answered all of mine, but ok. . .

You claimed that somehow Satan was responsible for the views and motivations of racists but you, naturally, are not Just as despite the same tactics and motivations to justify prejudice those attacking gays and lesbians in exactly the same ways as racists attack non-whites are somehow not motivated by hate (but those racists are). SO once again:

Yeah, I looked repeatedly, and I couldn't find where I supposedly said satan was responsible for anything. Attacking gays and lesbians in the same way as racist attack non-whites!? Would you like to start calling me names now? I mean seriously, that's going too far. Do you realize the implications of all the ways racists attack non-whites? That is a huge accusation to make, and I'm starting to feel like you actually hate me. If you don't hate me, I don't mean to insinuate, that's just what it seems like after that last bit.

And the people who use the bible to condemn gays and lesbians are motivated by what exactly?

I'm not condemning them, I'm pointing out their sin. My motivation for that is obedience to God and his Word, and by love so that the sin may be repented of and the sinner may turn toward God.

Why should we assume that the motivation in using the bible to justify prejudice against one minority is somehow different from the motivation in using the bible to justify prejudice against a different minority?

Because homosexual sex is a sin, it is detestable by God, it is able to be forgiven and repented of. If it is able to be repented of, that means the sinners heart must be able to turn from it and sin no more. This is completely and inherently different from skin color or gender or anything else that is a physical trait.

Can you explain why one group is morally superior to the other?

What do you mean, and what groups are you referring to?

See above

Kinda shuns my point by the wayside, but oh well.

All I know is what you posted

Oh, don't play innocent.

Comparing minorities to murders is part of your faith?

Here I refer you to the beginning of this post

Does your response here mean you cannot come up with any justifications for your anti-gay prejudice that were are not also employed by racists?

Well now you have the scripture up top, and before I found were that was, I had the point about one woman, one man from the way one wife was created for adam, corroborated when Jesus said a man and a woman as two become one.

 

[JediMobius]

You denied you wrote what you wrote - that ain’t refuting anything sweetie

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be rude, but why are you calling me sweetie? Anyway, please read the above post in reply to BigBadWlf, and you can see what I mean.

My parents and grandparents can tell you a lot about how people would prefer to not be equal to people with my skin color – same old tune and we heard it all before

1) Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God.
2) God created one woman as a companion for adam
3) Jesus says Mat 19:5 "For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh?"

These are God's guidelines for marriage. A homosexual couple cannot procreate. I doubt that they can bond and become one the way a man and woman can. So how does a homosexual union equate to a heterosexual marriage? It's not like I'm saying homosexuals are lesser people, I don't believe that. I really don't think it's discrimination on my part.

You do realize that wolf here is one of the better scholars hanging around here don’t you?

That may be your experience, but I haven't seen such evidence. However learned he may be, knowledge is no substitute for wisdom and discernment in anyone.

 

[JediMobius]

From http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html

The Bible not only describes homosexual behavior as detestable, but it also calls for the punishment of those involved (Leviticus 20:13). Their unrepentant attitude caused God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25).
Just as homosexual conduct has been punished in the past, so it will also be punished by God in the future.

“…Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortion ers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).


However, there is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

 

[sealacamp]

People can't choose their sexuality, it's just the way they are.
Why did God create people like that and then not allow them to express their feelings?
What's wrong with being homosexual anyway?
If two people find true love does it really matter that they're of the same gender?
Isn't discriminating homosexual couples like discrimination couples with a large age gap or of different nationalities?
Just like your sexuality, you can't decide when you were born or where you were born, yet different ages and nationalities are acceptable.
Myself, I am not homosexual, but I just don't understand why homosexuality is not acceptable.

Thanks for answers

People choose how to act on their feelings despite what you say. Murders say the same thing, they were born with these feelings and can't help it. Despite feelings people choose the course they take, so you are wrong, have been fooled by the liberal mindset that exists today, and have taken a wrong path in your life, that is your choice. If you don't understand what is wrong with this choice or many others in life perhaps you should read Gods word and let Him lead you into His understanding instead of following the line of "I am not responsible for my choices" as dictated by the mores of liberal thinking. This is the path to self destruction whether or not you believe it that is the truth. Choose well!

Sealacamp

 

[quatona]

1) Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God.

I was just trying to imagine being a woman reading this.

Homosexual men don´t lie with men as they lie with women.

 

[Andreusz]

If you don't understand what is wrong with this choice

What is wrong with it? Why doesn't God like it?

 

[GrayCat]

What is wrong with it? Why doesn't God like it?

I've wondered that as well. How does God go about deciding what he likes and doesn't like? What are the reasons behind these thoughts?


They seem very arbitrary to me...and very human too, for a deity that is supposed to be outside of and superior to all subjective human biases.

 

[uberd00b]

I've wondered that as well. How does God go about deciding what he likes and doesn't like? What are the reasons behind these thoughts?


They seem very arbitrary to me...and very human too, for a deity that is supposed to be outside of and superior to all subjective human biases.

Yes I always get the impression in these discussions that God is a very primitive prejudiced creature who could learn a thing or two from us humans. As this (probably, we're talking theology here so anything goes) goes against the idea of God I think it's more likely that the problem lies with the people pretending to speak for God via their own small minded prejudice.

 

[allhart]

Yes I always get the impression in these discussions that God is a very primitive prejudiced creature who could learn a thing or two from us humans. As this (probably, we're talking theology here so anything goes) goes against the idea of God I think it's more likely that the problem lies with the people pretending to speak for God via their own small minded prejudice.

So, who is the God in your world/mind. Like minded we be come as we experience life. Good or evil is your choice. FREE WILL. Your approach towards life is it worth while? Do you get it. Most don't get it! They wonder around empty and lost. Doing any thing carnal not seeing anything spiritual. In where everything we do is spiritual, but they don't get it.

 

[Beanieboy]

Seriously? Homosexuality is what destroyed Sodom and Gommorah?
You may want to do a search on Sdom. It lists their sins, and "homosexaulity", or even "a man lyinng with a man" isn't on the list.

 

[Beanieboy]

Yes I always get the impression in these discussions that God is a very primitive prejudiced creature who could learn a thing or two from us humans. As this (probably, we're talking theology here so anything goes) goes against the idea of God I think it's more likely that the problem lies with the people pretending to speak for God via their own small minded prejudice.

My opinion is that is God created in their own image, an idol, the truest for of blasphemy.

 

[katholikos]

People can't choose their sexuality, it's just the way they are.
Why did God create people like that and then not allow them to express their feelings?...

All humans have weaknesses to certain sins, whether its lust, gluttony, gambling... ...its the same with homosexuality. Personally, I'm a alcoholic. God made me that way. Does that mean I can get drunk? No, I cannot, because drunkeness is a sin. "But God made me that way!" So what. I must master it. We all must master our weaknesses.

The problem with homosexuals is that they seem to not think their sin is a sin. That is the real danger for them.

Consider a kleptomaniac. He probably knows stealing is a sin, but he can't help himself. But he must learn to master that weakness. Homosexuals have been duped, in part, by a society that rejects the idea of sin more and more, and tells them that its all good. But they share in the blame themselves, because they willfully reject Biblical teaching on this and turn away from it.

Sin is sin. No sin is any better than another. But homosexual sex IS a sin. You'd better come to grips with that fact.

 

[cantata]

Does God punish sincere mistakes?

 

[Beanieboy]

All humans have weaknesses to certain sins, whether its lust, gluttony, gambling... ...its the same with homosexuality. Personally, I'm a alcoholic. God made me that way. Does that mean I can get drunk? No, I cannot, because drunkeness is a sin. "But God made me that way!" So what. I must master it. We all must master our weaknesses.

The problem with homosexuals is that they seem to not think their sin is a sin. That is the real danger for them.

Consider a kleptomaniac. He probably knows stealing is a sin, but he can't help himself. But he must learn to master that weakness. Homosexuals have been duped, in part, by a society that rejects the idea of sin more and more, and tells them that its all good. But they share in the blame themselves, because they willfully reject Biblical teaching on this and turn away from it.

Sin is sin. No sin is any better than another. But homosexual sex IS a sin. You'd better come to grips with that fact.

A homosexual in a loving relationship with another man, or woman with a woman, is the same as a loving relationship of a man with a woman. The bible doesn't speak at all about same sex loving relationships. In fact, it doesn't really talk about homosexuality all. You have to come to grips with that.

Why is it so hard for Straight Christians to understand the difference between a gay relationship, and a kleptomaniac? A klepto must steal from another (the victim). That's why it a "sin." Not because it is in the bible, but because you wouldn't want someone to steal from you, so you are not loving your neighbour as yourself.

In a homosexual relationship, the two people care for one another, make meals together, offer companionship, intimacy, support, and love. There is no victim. They are loving their neighbor as themselves in this relationship.

 

[katholikos]

All humans have weaknesses to certain sins, whether its lust, gluttony, gambling... ...its the same with homosexuality. Personally, I'm a alcoholic. God made me that way. Does that mean I can get drunk? No, I cannot, because drunkeness is a sin. "But God made me that way!" So what. I must master it. We all must master our weaknesses.

The problem with homosexuals is that they seem to not think their sin is a sin. That is the real danger for them.

Consider a kleptomaniac. He probably knows stealing is a sin, but he can't help himself. But he must learn to master that weakness. Homosexuals have been duped, in part, by a society that rejects the idea of sin more and more, and tells them that its all good. But they share in the blame themselves, because they willfully reject Biblical teaching on this and turn away from it.

Sin is sin. No sin is any better than another. But homosexual sex IS a sin. You'd better come to grips with that fact.

A homosexual in a loving relationship with another man, or woman with a woman, is the same as a loving relationship of a man with a woman. The bible doesn't speak at all about same sex loving relationships. In fact, it doesn't really talk about homosexuality all. You have to come to grips with that....

You just proved my point and did exactly what I illustrated, you "willfully reject Biblical teaching on this and turn away from it." Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Just because something feels right to people doesn't not make it right. But if you need some scriptures to confirm what I'm saying:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9–10, NIV).

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. . . . If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them" (Lev. 18:22, 20:13).

Jude 7 records that Sodom and Gomorrah "acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust." Ezekiel says that Sodom committed "abominable things" (Ezek. 16:50), which could refer to homosexual and heterosexual acts of sin. Lot even offered his two virgin daughters in place of his guests, but the men of Sodom rejected the offer, preferring homosexual sex over heterosexual sex (Gen. 19:8–9). Ezekiel does allude to a lack of hospitality in saying that Sodom "did not aid the poor and needy" (Ezek. 16:49). So homosexual acts and a lack of hospitality both contributed to the destruction of Sodom, with the former being the far greater sin, the "abominable thing" that set off God’s wrath.

Homosexual sex is a sin. Its not about "tolerance" and its not about "hate." Its about right and wrong. Homosexual sex is a violation of natural law - and it is a mortal sin, a violation of divine law. Those are the simple facts, which I state not out of hatred or malice but out of simple truthfulness.

I invite you to learn about "Courage" - http://couragerc.net/
"Courage" is an apostolate of the Catholic Church and ministers to those with same-sex attractions and their loved ones. You'll never hear about it in the mainstream media: They have many success stories of people overcoming their same-sex atraction issues, and sometimes even getting married to fellow members of the opposite sex. They are amazing stories - stories which prove wrong the notion that you are just born that way and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Beanieboy]

Leviticus:
http://whosoever.org/bible/leviticus.shtml
Can I assume that if you are using Leviticus, you abide by all of the rules as well?

I Corinthians 6:
In I Corinthians 6:9 Paul lists a many activities that will prevent people from inheriting the Kingdom of God. One has been variously translated as effeminate, homosexuals, or sexual perverts. The original Greek text reads malakoi arsenokoitai. The first word means soft; the meaning of the second word has been lost. It was once used to refer to a male temple prostitute (as in the verses from the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament described above). The early Church interpreted the phrase as referring to people of soft morals; i.e. unethical. From the time of Martin Luther, it was interpreted as referring to masturbation. More recently, it has been translated as referring to homosexuals . Each translator seem to take whatever activity that their society particularly disapproves of and use it in this verse.
http://whosoever.org/bible/corin.shtml

Do I reject the bible, then?
You are pretty arrogant. As a Christian, I prayed about it all the time, cried to God, begged God, asked him why he would curse me like this. After years of struggle, guilt, shame, and fear, and thinking that even God hated me, I realized that I could either continue living a lie, or be honest. When I finally allowed myself to be who I was, I was happy for the first time. I understood romance and love for the first time.

I don't reject the God. I reject man's faulty image of what God commands and wants. If one doesn't understand that at the cruxt of Christianity is to love your neighbor as yourself, and in so, are loving God, then you have completely missed the point. If you don't understand that you are forgiven only as you have forgiven others before they ask, you probably aren't forgiven of your sins. (Remember the Parable of the Master who forgave a man a large debt?)

I believe that God made me gay, and gave me a funny, intelligent partner that supports me, is a companion, a friend, a lover, and simply a beautiful soul that borders on childlike brilliance.

And something like that can't be evil.

 

[Beanieboy]

I invite you to learn about "Courage" - http://couragerc.net/
"Courage" is an apostolate of the Catholic Church and ministers to those with same-sex attractions and their loved ones. You'll never hear about it in the mainstream media: They have many success stories of people overcoming their same-sex atraction issues, and sometimes even getting married to fellow members of the opposite sex. They are amazing stories - stories which prove wrong the notion that you are just born that way and there is nothing you can do about it.

I don't want to convert to heterosexuality. It is pretty unchangeable, and that is what most therapists will say as well. Sure, there are people who do marry. I was watching a documentary on the Canadian Exodus. One man embraced his sexuality, and became very happy for the first time, and felt love. The other, deciding to sacrifice his own desires, he would marry a woman (a lesbian friend) to live the life that God wanted for him.

He admits that he still has gay attractions. Of their sex life, the woman said, "what is there to say? It's clumsy and messy, and you just try to go it."

Does that sound like love or passion?

I believe that such conversion therapy starts with the premise of A) a lie, that gays can change into heterosexuals, and B( The assumption that gay people would want to try to reprogram their sex drive towards heterosexuality. Most of us are very fine where we are.

If you would like to come with me on Wed to Recruit a Hetero night at the club, though, let me know.