If baptism is essential

Toms777 said:

Two questions:

1) Why do you reject what Acts 2:38 actually says when showing logically and in context of the rest of scripture?

2) Do you believe in baptzing the name of Jesus only?

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Question #1: The context of Acts 2:38 is that some of the Jews that heard the sermon preached by the apostle Peter were convicted of their sins and asked what they should do about them (verse 37). Peter, under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit (see John 16:7-14 and Acts 2:1-4), told them what to do to have their sins taken away. Three thousand of the Jews obeyed what they were told to do (see verse 41), and were saved and added to the church by the Lord (see verse 47). What is it about this context is "out of context?" Personally, I don't think there is a problem with the context. The problem is with accepting what Peter commanded the Jews to do in verse 38. Obviously, the passage presents problems for those who deny what Mark 16:16 plainly says, and for those who create a whole doctrine (salvation by faith alone) around one passage of Scripture -- like John 3:16. Sorry, but taking baptism out of Mark 16:16 so that it agrees with what John 3:16 says if we add the word "alone" to the passage doesn't negate what Acts 2:38 says. Have you considered a different approach? Why not leave the word "alone" out of John 3:16, leave the word "baptism" in Mark 16:16 so that it says what the Lord said, and accept Acts 2:38 for what it says. Then you can find the harmony that is necessary, and you don't have to change a thing to achieve it.

Question #2: "In the name of Jesus Christ" means to act by authority or power from the Lord (see Acts 4:7). It is synonymous with "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" in Matt. 28:19 and "in the name of the Lord" in Acts 10:47-48, Acts 19:5, and Col. 3:17.

My Question: Why are you worried about being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ if you are NOT willing to be baptized for the reason stated in Acts 2:38?


Thanks DRA.

Jim Woodell said:

Question #1: The context of Acts 2:38 is that some of the Jews that heard the sermon preached by the apostle Peter were convicted of their sins and asked what they should do about them (verse 37). Peter, under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit (see John 16:7-14 and Acts 2:1-4), told them what to do to have their sins taken away. Three thousand of the Jews obeyed what they were told to do (see verse 41), and were saved and added to the church by the Lord (see verse 47). What is it about this context is "out of context?"

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Jim - I simply cannot believe that you could still ask this question. This has been explained to you so many times, and was even demonstrated through use of logic equations. Yet you try to suggest that you did not see it.

Question #2: "In the name of Jesus Christ" means to act by authority or power from the Lord (see Acts 4:7). It is synonymous with "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" in Matt. 28:19 and "in the name of the Lord" in Acts 10:47-48, Acts 19:5, and Col. 3:17.

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Ah, now this is interesting. So you will take Acts 2:38 out of context to suggest that baptism is essential, ignoring the entire rest of the Bible which clearly says the opposite. So, despite the fact that there is an understanding which brings this into harmony with the whole of scripture, you choose to ignore the rest of scripture and take this verse out of context.

Yet when it comes to this question, you appear to note the serious problem that this approach brings and now you try to take it in context.

Jim, you need to take a more consistent approach to interpreting scripture rather than forcing scripture to bend to your theological system if you wish to see what God has to say to us in His word.

Jim Woodell said:

Question #1: The context of Acts 2:38 is that some of the Jews that heard the sermon preached by the apostle Peter were convicted of their sins and asked what they should do about them (verse 37). Peter, under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit (see John 16:7-14 and Acts 2:1-4), told them what to do to have their sins taken away. Three thousand of the Jews obeyed what they were told to do (see verse 41), and were saved and added to the church by the Lord (see verse 47). What is it about this context is "out of context?" Personally, I don't think there is a problem with the context. The problem is with accepting what Peter commanded the Jews to do in verse 38. Obviously, the passage presents problems for those who deny what Mark 16:16 plainly says, and for those who create a whole doctrine (salvation by faith alone) around one passage of Scripture -- like John 3:16. Sorry, but taking baptism out of Mark 16:16 so that it agrees with what John 3:16 says if we add the word "alone" to the passage doesn't negate what Acts 2:38 says. Have you considered a different approach? Why not leave the word "alone" out of John 3:16, leave the word "baptism" in Mark 16:16 so that it says what the Lord said, and accept Acts 2:38 for what it says. Then you can find the harmony that is necessary, and you don't have to change a thing to achieve it.

Question #2: "In the name of Jesus Christ" means to act by authority or power from the Lord (see Acts 4:7). It is synonymous with "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" in Matt. 28:19 and "in the name of the Lord" in Acts 10:47-48, Acts 19:5, and Col. 3:17.

My Question: Why are you worried about being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ if you are NOT willing to be baptized for the reason stated in Acts 2:38?


Thanks DRA.

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Jim,

A response has been posted to this post, but doesn't address these Scriptures in any way, shape, or form. In essence, the poster is saying that an understanding has been reached about what God requires for salvation, and these passages simply don't fit the understanding derived from the other passages -- at least, the ones they will acknowledge and accept. Sadly, our poster has fallen into the trap prepared for those who can't or won't hamonize their understanding of a passage (or passages) with the understanding derived from other passages e.g. Matt. 4:5-7, Matt. 22:23-33, 2 Cor. 2:11.

This reminds of the old saying that I've heard: "Don't confuse me with the facts . . . I already have my mind made up!"

. . . Denny

- DRA - said:

Jim,

A response has been posted to this post, but doesn't address these Scriptures in any way, shape, or form. In essence, the poster is saying that an understanding has been reached about what God requires for salvation, and these passages simply don't fit the understanding derived from the other passages -- at least, the ones they will acknowledge and accept. Sadly, our poster has fallen into the trap prepared for those who can't or won't hamonize their understanding of a passage (or passages) with the understanding derived from other passages e.g. Matt. 4:5-7, Matt. 22:23-33, 2 Cor. 2:11.

This reminds of the old saying that I've heard: "Don't confuse me with the facts . . . I already have my mind made up!"

. . . Denny

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The problem is what he said to the jews about baptism is not what happened with the Gentiles. so what do we do with this. You dont understand Rom 6. compare it with 1 Cor. 12:13 baptized by one Spirit into one body. This is into salvation is it not. compare it with Eph. 4:4 one body one Spirit. "5" you were CALLED- one Lord one Faith one Baptism;... So how is it water, its not. How hard is it to understand! Read how many times it says in scripture that word THROUGH what is always after it. I can give about a hundred or more and none speak of water. You dont even get GRACE. How is the Holy Spirit used in salvation.

Ah, now this is interesting. So you will take Acts 2:38 out of context to suggest that baptism is essential, ignoring the entire rest of the Bible which clearly says the opposite. So, despite the fact that there is an understanding which brings this into harmony with the whole of scripture, you choose to ignore the rest of scripture and take this verse out of context.

Yet when it comes to this question, you appear to note the serious problem that this approach brings and now you try to take it in context.

Jim, you need to take a more consistent approach to interpreting scripture rather than forcing scripture to bend to your theological system if you wish to see what God has to say to us in His word.

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If the rest of the Bible says just the opposite of Acts 2:38, would you just submit one of those verses??

You see, Tom777, I believe John 3:16 and all of the other faith verses you can produce, which can all be summed up with Heb. 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please him..." I also believe Luke 13:3 and Acts 17:30-31 that tell us we must repent or perish because God does wink at human ignorance, as well as Matt. 10:31-32; Romans 10:9-10 (that we need to believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths), BUT, Tom777 and you also, Mr. Shroeder, I also believe what God says in Mark 16:15-16 and Acts 2:38 and Acts 8:35-38 and Acts 22:16 and Romans 6:1-5 and 1 Peter 3:20-21.

I also believe what 1 Cor. 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body...", and I believe Eph. 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5.

It is one thing to hurl accusations about harmonizing and another to harmonize. I didn't see a single verse of Scripture in your post, so I would ask for that verse that says what you said in your post.

Jim Woodell said:

If the rest of the Bible says just the opposite of Acts 2:38, would you just submit one of those verses??

You see, Tom777, I believe John 3:16 and all of the other faith verses you can produce, which can all be summed up with Heb. 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please him..." I also believe Luke 13:3 and Acts 17:30-31 that tell us we must repent or perish because God does wink at human ignorance, as well as Matt. 10:31-32; Romans 10:9-10 (that we need to believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths), BUT, Tom777 and you also, Mr. Shroeder, I also believe what God says in Mark 16:15-16 and Acts 2:38 and Acts 8:35-38 and Acts 22:16 and Romans 6:1-5 and 1 Peter 3:20-21.

I also believe what 1 Cor. 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body...", and I believe Eph. 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5.

It is one thing to hurl accusations about harmonizing and another to harmonize. I didn't see a single verse of Scripture in your post, so I would ask for that verse that says what you said in your post.

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I did and have shown you that water does nothing for salvation and that you take the word baptism to mean only one thing, als o i did use scripture above to show you your error in 1 Peter 3:20 and Rom 6 that shows it is clearly not water baptism, but you ignore it and only say what of Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16. take these two out could yuou still understand salvation yes you can.

Jim Woodell said:

If the rest of the Bible says just the opposite of Acts 2:38, would you just submit one of those verses??

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But Jim, it is you who are telling us that the rest of the Bible says something different than the rest of the Bible, not I. I believe that the Bible is in complete harmony, but you try to tell us that Acts 2:38 says that we need to be baptized, contrary to what scripture tells us.

W Jay Schroeder said:

we have look what the word THROUGH is always by . JESUS.

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I don't believe that this is correct. We often find the word through by other things, faith is one example (Ephesians 2:8)...perhaps I missed the point you were trying to make

Salvation by Faith and Believing in your heart.

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I have to disagree with you 100% here. Salvation is BY grace. If it is BY faith, then it is based upon something that I DO. Does this make faith unnecessary? Absolutely not. By the same principle then, other things that God has said are necessary to receive His grace, or His forgiveness, do not earn one's salvation, but are still no less necessary.

You really did this passage all wrong (Acts 10) Read verse 43 That everyone who BELIEVES in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Peter didnt say receives forgiveness through water like you keep saying he does. Read 11:16-18. Peter said that God gave them the same gift as he gave us. the gift is GRACE and GRACE is what brings salvation.

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In the context of Acts 10, I can't find anywhere where Peter says what you have said. He does refer to the Gentiles also having received the Holy Spirit - but the Holy Spirit is not Grace, He is the Holy Spirit.

Also, one does not receive forgiveness because they are baptized - one is forgiven because God chooses to forgive. It is up to God then to state what, if anything, one must do in order to receive forgiveness. If God says that you must be baptized in order to receive forgiveness, then that is something that must be done. This would in no way mean that being baptized earns forgiveness.

" So then God has granted even the gentiles repentance unto life." How through the Holy Spirt, which is christ which is God which is the only way to receive salvation. He does not say they had to because they were not saved or did he say for the remission of sins. If you keep reading into scripture things not spoken you will never get it right.

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You have quoted from Acts 11 - and from a completely different day, place and discussion. Let's stay within the context of the particular situation we are discussing first, and then we can move on later. Surely we can all agree to do this because Peter wouldn't say one thing to the Gentiles and then another to the Jews - that would be lieing.

Acts 10:34-35 ASV

And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.

These two verses are within the context of the situation we're discussing. Peter says first the orange text. The phrase "in every nation" clearly means that salvation is no longer limited to those of the lineage of Israel. I thank God for this, because I am not Jewish.

The next thing that Peter mentions are some things that an individual must do: "he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness" are things that an individual must do. They must fear the Lord and do the things that the Lord says.

Finally, "is acceptable to Him". Who is the Him? It is God. Who is acceptable to God? Anyone who fears God and works righteousness. Is someone who doesn't do these things acceptable? No. Does this mean that if you don't do these things you aren't acceptable? Yes. Does one have to be acceptable before God in order to be saved? Yes. Does this mean that doing these things earns our salvation? No - simply because the wage would not be equivalent to the action or work performed. It is a gift that one given when they have done what God is said is necessary to receive it.

aggie03 said:

I don't believe that this is correct. We often find the word through by other things, faith is one example (Ephesians 2:8)...perhaps I missed the point you were trying to make



I have to disagree with you 100% here. Salvation is BY grace. If it is BY faith, then it is based upon something that I DO. Does this make faith unnecessary? Absolutely not. By the same principle then, other things that God has said are necessary to receive His grace, or His forgiveness, do not earn one's salvation, but are still no less necessary.



In the context of Acts 10, I can't find anywhere where Peter says what you have said. He does refer to the Gentiles also having received the Holy Spirit - but the Holy Spirit is not Grace, He is the Holy Spirit.

Also, one does not receive forgiveness because they are baptized - one is forgiven because God chooses to forgive. It is up to God then to state what, if anything, one must do in order to receive forgiveness. If God says that you must be baptized in order to receive forgiveness, then that is something that must be done. This would in no way mean that being baptized earns forgiveness.



You have quoted from Acts 11 - and from a completely different day, place and discussion. Let's stay within the context of the particular situation we are discussing first, and then we can move on later. Surely we can all agree to do this because Peter wouldn't say one thing to the Gentiles and then another to the Jews - that would be lieing.

Acts 10:34-35 ASV

And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.

These two verses are within the context of the situation we're discussing. Peter says first the orange text. The phrase "in every nation" clearly means that salvation is no longer limited to those of the lineage of Israel. I thank God for this, because I am not Jewish.

The next thing that Peter mentions are some things that an individual must do: "he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness" are things that an individual must do. They must fear the Lord and do the things that the Lord says.

Finally, "is acceptable to Him". Who is the Him? It is God. Who is acceptable to God? Anyone who fears God and works righteousness. Is someone who doesn't do these things acceptable? No. Does this mean that if you don't do these things you aren't acceptable? Yes. Does one have to be acceptable before God in order to be saved? Yes. Does this mean that doing these things earns our salvation? No - simply because the wage would not be equivalent to the action or work performed. It is a gift that one given when they have done what God is said is necessary to receive it.

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Do you agree with DRA that peter commanded Water baptism in Act 10 because they were not saved untill they did this. this is the Problem because that is not why he commanded it at all. You seem not to be reading my post correctly. Yes we are saved by Grace. but you dont get it unless you believe and have Faith. they are all together not in steps. It more of a instantanies thing not first this then this. And Baptism is not a part of getting salvation, which is what we are trying to say or debate. Baptism does nothing to help in your salvation. Read Rom. 3:22 " This righteousness from God comes through Faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are JUSTIFIED freely by his grace through the redemtion that came by Christ. then read 4:3-5 and it shows this righteousness and justification and GRACE. Do we agree with this discription of Grace.