If Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong... (Moved)

[prov1810]

In what way is being responsible predicated on there being someone to hold you responsible? If God is the ultimate authority, then he bears ultimate responsibility.

No, if God is the ultimate authority then the way He does things is the way they should be done.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This is standard Christian teaching: before the Fall Adam and Eve were mentally superior to every human being who would come after them except Jesus. That's why it's called a fall.

Clearly they weren't created superior. They lacked knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, if God is the ultimate authority then the way He does things is the way they should be done.

Which still renders him responsible since, being God, he is able to decide on the way things should be done and, of course, the way things ultimately are.

 

[FireDragon76]

The philosophic problem I have with the story is that A & E were set up. God knew they would disobey. He created them with that purpose. Why blame them for disobedience, when they were just acting out the script God had written? I know it's a fable meant to teach a lesson, but it lacks logical coherence.

The Genesis story is a myth or a fable. It has elements that are mysterious or not easy to understand. I do believe its a divinely revealed story, however. What I take away from it- we came into existence innocent, but lost that innocence and introduced a new relationship with God, one based on religion and covenant rather than direct experience.

Some of the early Fathers such as Iranaeus of Lyons understood the expulsion from the Tree of Life as a merciful act. The ultimate monstrous act would be to have more immortal beings that are slaves to evil. So God limits Adam's years so that he could await a future, post-mortem salvation.

In addition, imagine the problems with immortality as we usually understand it. There's all the boredom and ennui of just existing. Christian "eternal life" is not just living forever doing whatever you want- that's more like a vampiric or ghoulish existence. Human life has to be transfigured by God's own life, to elevate us to something beyond mere existence, to something like the selflessness found in the Holy Trinity.

 

[prov1810]

Clearly they weren't created superior. They lacked knowledge of good and evil.

I've already addressed what this knowledge means. I'm not going to go searching through the thread.

 

[rick357]

Clearly they weren't created superior. They lacked knowledge of good and evil.

Knowledge is experiance not understanding...the way you are using the word is understanding you have no need to experiance wrong to know it is wrong

 

[jayem]

The Genesis story is a myth or a fable. It has elements that are mysterious or not easy to understand. I do believe its a divinely revealed story, however. What I take away from it- we came into existence innocent, but lost that innocence and introduced a new relationship with God, one based on religion and covenant rather than direct experience.

This is how I see it. The Genesis story is similar to the Pandora myth. Its purpose is to teach that bad human choices are responsible for the misery and suffering we see in the world. And I think's that's actually true to a large extent. But where the legend fails is when we introduce the Abrahamic God. Whose qualities of omniscience, omnipotence, and sovereignty lead to the conclusion that A & E really had no choice, but were acting according to God's plan. Which makes God--not human beings--ultimately responsible for what goes on in this world. So we have a logical contradiction. Do you see my point?

 

[jayem]

No, if God is the ultimate authority then the way He does things is the way they should be done.

And if God is good, then the way he does things is good. So everything that he makes happen--or allows to happen--is also for the good.

Thank you, Professor Pangloss.

 

[prov1810]

This is how I see it. The Genesis story is similar to the Pandora myth. Its purpose is to teach that bad human choices are responsible for the misery and suffering we see in the world. And I think's that's actually true to a large extent. But where the legend fails is when we introduce the Abrahamic God. Whose qualities of omniscience, omnipotence, and sovereignty lead to the conclusion that A & E really had no choice, but were acting according to God's plan. Which makes God--not human beings--ultimately responsible for what goes on in this world. So we have a logical contradiction. Do you see my point?

Adam and Eve had desires, and they had will (even if it wasn't free in the libertarian sense, which is impossible anyway) in the sense of using it, having volition. They were intentional. An agent doesn't have to be completely independent and spontaneous to be responsible. That's not the issue for justice. Justice is a moral order where certain consequences logically rebound to persons who do certain things.

For the other issue being discussed on this thread, it seems we are at an impasse. If a person has never done wrong, if they don't personally know what it's like to do evil, are they hopelessly stupid and doomed to failure? There is no scenario where they refrain from doing evil? It's assumed that moral innocence is so fragile it could never survive.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Knowledge is experiance not understanding...the way you are using the word is understanding you have no need to experiance wrong to know it is wrong

No, knowledge is synonymous with understanding. Adam and Eve were presumably created as adults who, at the very least, had some capacity for language. We know this because they conversed with God and the serpent. This means they were created with at least some capacities that they did not have to develop through experience; however, the capacity to morally evaluate God's commandments was not one of them.

 

[prov1810]

How any particular deity is wouldn't make it the standard for how a deity should be

If He's the only deity He's the only standard.

 

[pyramid33]

Good point prov1810.

Pretending other god's exist is satan's work. (satan wanted to pretend to be God after made, lol).

 

[rick357]

We just went over why it isn't just.

You've yet to establish this as "fact".

Except, as I pointed out in my previous post, what we have done becomes immaterial to the question of punishment. All that matters is whether one believes in, loves and worships the deity, not whether one made good choices in life.

That is not the understanding of those who believe the scripture...our actions brought about horrible result but that price was paid by anouther...consider you decide one winter morning to walk out onto ice that a parent tells you not to...you see no danger and figure your parent just wants to tell you what to do...so you go but the ice is thin and breaks under you...you strugle but cant excape you know you will soon be dead...but then your brother jumps in with you swims down and pushes you up to safty...he however dies....do you believe you would consider your actions to have no consequences.

 

[rick357]

The problem with this analogy is that it doesn't parallel the Adam and Eve story, for reasons that have already been discussed.

Adam was told not to eat for the fruit would bring death...he decided it would be good...and took death into himself...but God made a way to restore him to life...knowledge is to know by experiance...Adam had reason and intellect before the fall...greater than ours since his perception was not clouded...you do not have to kill to know it is wrong to do...our understanding is limited but how can we understand if we abandon what we do have

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

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