If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

nonaeroterraqueous · May 11, 2018

Colter said:
Sin and salvation are choices made by living beings with freedom of choice.

Believe it or not, that has nothing to do with the subject of predestination. It is not the contention of those who hold to the view of predestination that people have no freedom of choice.

When I see a comment like that, I'm not sure if you're deliberately setting up a straw man argument, or if you have trouble with abstract thinking. I don't expect most people to get it, either, but I wish they wouldn't perpetuate their misunderstanding for the whole world to read.

aiki · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

I don't see why the one thing must necessitate the other.

Meticulous predestination of everything does, though, ultimately make God the Author of evil. You wouldn't want to hold a view that did that, would you?

dreadnought · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

I always thought predestination meant that it had already been decided before birth that you would spend eternity in heaven or hell. I thought that meant those who were predestined to go to hell couldn't be saved. I don't believe in predestination.

Kenny'sID · May 11, 2018

If everything were predestined, there would be no point for us to go through the process of seeing how we act so we know who goes to heaven and who does not, that we are in now. God would already know.

Predestination in the sense it's taught makes no sense at all.

Colter · May 11, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Believe it or not, that has nothing to do with the subject of predestination. It is not the contention of those who hold to the view of predestination that people have no freedom of choice.

When I see a comment like that, I'm not sure if you're deliberately setting up a straw man argument, or if you have trouble with abstract thinking. I don't expect most people to get it, either, but I wish they wouldn't perpetuate their misunderstanding for the whole world to read.

Doctor of condescension, my reply wasn’t addressed to your highness, rather the proletariat. Let us then amuse ourselves as we dabble in such speculation and conjecture that will sooth our nescience.

Neostarwcc · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

That's a good question. I don't believe that anyone is predestined for hell. Its just that God knows who will and will not accept Christ in their lifetimes. And God chose or predestined ALL who God foreknew would come to him for salvation. And that persons life is guided and protected by God and everything from their life to their death is predestined by God. Now those who reject Jesus's offer of salvation live however they want to and God plays no role in guiding their lives. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love them. After all he died for ALL of mankind it just means that they will NEVER believe so he doesn't bother with them I guess? Idk.

sdowney717 · May 11, 2018

Halbhh said:
Another wording is: Did God make us (by His design) totally predictable? Many just assume this, but the Bible suggests otherwise:

"5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

So, if this wording is true, as I believe, then it says a fact -- God regretted that He had made humans.

7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

Remember how He made the Earth and all in it? --

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

So, God made all good, yet later regretted He had made us, and considered to destroy most or all creatures.

This means that by His design God must have chosen to create us to be unpredictable, and His choices are the best possible choices.

Ergo, for anything good to exist, evil must be possible, and all of it is somewhat unpredictable, even though we could imagine both nature and we are predictable in part, in aspects, in certain ways -- like the weather -- just not predictable in full "absolute everything".

Ergo it's simply not the case that all is predetermined.

What is predetermined is that God will accomplish His plans, because He has said He will.

Our redemption into Eternal Life.

In my thinking, the scripture is written to and for man, so God here is speaking considering the audience, that is us, He is relating to us through human terms. So He regretted making man so we could understand His coming judgement of destruction on all flesh by way of the flood. And by saying that and destroying the world and only saving 8 persons, God shows us He is in control of all things both the good and the evil. Sin has judgement following close behind. Paul in Corinthians says the former things were written down for us as examples to not to desire to be like them that were destroyed, so part of our edification.
The fall was also predetermined, in order to give to Christ all the glory so that no flesh can boast in God's presence regarding why they were saved.

Our salvation is by God's mercy and love for us, not by our performance.

Grip Docility · May 11, 2018

Much has been broached here!

To be direct... classical theology... as born of roots in brick and mortar... and sealed outside of cannon... has no possibility of answering this question.

Was I predestined to say that? If so... illusions of existence become a thing...

Predestination?

Predestined for what?

When we say predestined to say and do... many avenues of thought with one outcome become apparent... and in that... they all suggest us puppets of God’s design.

If we suggest God predestined His Revelation Of Himself to us... we find autonomy and genuine existence becomes a thing again...

The most complex issue to grasp, when thinking dimensionally... about God’s possible perception... is that we are bound to specific dimensional perception... as in... we experience time, sight and such forth in a linear fashion...

But... and here comes the kicker...

Luke 4:

5And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” 8And Jesus answered him, “It is written,

“‘You shall worship the Lord your God,
and him only shall you serve.’”

....We have Scriptural record of a specific angel that has fallen, displaying the ability to blur time... or display it in an instant....

Ever see that before?

That’s simply the power of the adversary of God...

But what of God? We know that God’s perception is so much more intensely and infinitely amazing... as in Pure Omnipotence...

How does God perceive the concept of Time... when God is infinite?

Can God relate to us within time in a genuine fashion?

I don’t know how God sees it all... but I’m certain that He isn’t watching reruns and pretending to relate to us...

Me thinks people put God in a box of time and linear relation to us, by our rules and understandings...

That’s all I’ll say for now...

What say you... @Neogaia777 ?

sdowney717 · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Did God (the Father now) predestine or somehow "set up" even God the Son, our God, and all of us as well maybe...? And if so, what does that mean...?

God Bless!

The only way we can know the Father is by way of the will of the Son.
Was the Son predestined, yes, He was predetermined, foreordained, it is why Christ came into the world to be an offering for sin.

In Luke 10, Jesus tells us we only know Him and God IF He wills it to be so. And He then tells those who know Him and God that they are blessed of God.

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from thewise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

1 Peter 1
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

IN TRUTH, you only know God by the work of Jesus Christ. Notice it says 'who through Him believe in God', now dont you think this is profound? And it is personal.

Deadietrickwood · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Predestination is a tough answer and has to be supported by a lot of scripture. I don't have the absolute answer per se, but I believe God, in His omniscience and grace, knows who will be drawn to Him and those who will accept His call to confess Christ as Lord and Savior. Although He gives us free choice. . ."For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified" (Ro 8:29). Maybe He knows when He forms us in the womb the response to Him will be unlikely(?)

But God is the one with the ultimate choice "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Ex 9:17). Although we can't fully comprehend, Romans 9:10-24 tells us of God's choices.
On the other hand, if we have no choices why do we need forgiveness for sin? And why would there be separation from God in our sin (james 1:12).
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. (Ro 8:5-9).
Perhaps because God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim 2:4 He knows beforehand many will not.
Hope I've contributed here.

Grip Docility · May 11, 2018

sdowney717 said:
The only way we can know the Father is by way of the will of the Son.
Was the Son predestined, yes, He was predetermined, foreordained, it is why Christ came into the world to be an offering for sin.

In Luke 10, Jesus tells us we only know Him and God IF He wills it to be so. And He then tells those who know Him and God that they are blessed of God.

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from thewise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

1 Peter 1
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

IN TRUTH, you only know God by the work of Jesus Christ. Notice it says 'who through Him believe in God', now dont you think this is profound? And it is personal.

Predestination applies to The Revelation of Jesus Christ... indeed!

Fore-ordained, even!

This is the most rapid way to tear through all the confusion.

This bats it right back to John 5:39

When all those amazing terms are placed as revelations of Jesus Christ... scripture just clears right up.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Only if God so loved the world.

Deadietrickwood · May 11, 2018

Agree. Scripture interprets scripture!

aiki · May 11, 2018

www.soteriology101.com

zoidar · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Yes I think so, since God wants everyone to be saved, and if there was no free will then everyone would in my opinion be saved. Free will is still not to be seen as a bad thing, because it's something good. We have been given responsiblity and freedom of choice, because... God is good! Without free will life wouldn't be living, it would be jail.

Before someone says something that predestination has nothing to do with freedom of choice, I really think it has. The freedom of choice I think is the proof of free will, that we feel that we have free will (and that means there is no predestination in terms of God choosing for us, rather God is predestinating the consquences of our actions though forknowledge). If there was no free will, I believe we would have felt controlled. Exactly what free will is can be discussed though, because I do believe in free will, but at the same time without God we can't make the right decisions. God's Spirit enables us to live righteous lives.

I think it's like our "wheel of free will" is working inside a bigger wheel which is God's will. Only God knows exactly how this goes together.

Free will is one of the things that makes us humans so wonderfully made. I think that is a big part of being created as an image of God.

Mal'ak · May 11, 2018

There is free will, and that is a great proof that the Father is amazing. He does not want robots, he wants children that want to love him and want to be righteous. He is God, so he could have created us all exactly how he wanted and unable to sin, but then we would have no personality. Our faults and unique differences is what makes us his children, instead of just his creation.

The Word of God tells us how we are judged, and even stated "the Father judgeth no man". God in fact has no say at all and does not pick favorites, those that go to Heaven is judged by the "Son", which means "he that heareth my word". I posted else where, but Jesus is the Word of God...the Bible....if you learn it and obey it, you will go to Heaven. That is the glory of the Father, at the end people asking "why did you send me to the Lake of Fire!?" The Lord will reply very simply, "I sent you no where, your feet guided you to where you are". The Father knows everything, he knows what we will choose and where we will go, but he does not force our hand. He waits for us to damn ourselves, so we know it was our choice. He could create us day 1 and then on day 2 have the white throne of judgment, telling his new creation "you are going to the lake of fire because you will be evil, so no reason to waste anyone's time". But that would not be just, and the Father is putting himself and everyone else through the evil of this world so we will be a witness for ourselves at the end.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

CGL1023 · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I would like to suggest also, that maybe only from the moment one is "saved" that the Lord then, orders all his steps from there maybe...?

Or the only real true choice is our salvation, either accepting or rejecting, and maybe the Lord predestines all of everyone's steps, but around that choice, only one real true choice, to either accept him or reject him, and that he uses the bad (ones) for, or for the furthering of, the good (ones)...

What do you think...?

For example I don't know if I really have my own choice(s) "now", but wonder if it has always been that way or not...?

Beyond that, I sometimes wonder if I have been chosen for bad or good sometimes as well...?

Or are we all running off of (our supposed choices and choosing) are not all running off of past "programming", so to speak...?

Thoughts...?

God Bless!

expos4ever · May 11, 2018

Paul of Eugene OR said:
The idea of sin and guilt is incompatible with the idea of no free will. Without free will, there cannot be sin or guilt.

I agree strongly, the concept of sin requires free will.

alsughasoughaiuyfygh · May 11, 2018

Freedom~Sprite · May 11, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

No.
That would upset the balance.

If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

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