Bottom line, you are calling Jesus a liar. Gates of Hell will not overcome the church.
Don't forget even your BOM says, that the Apostle John is alive on earth until Jesus returns in his Glory, thus it is impossible for the church to fail too.
There is one major difference in your line of authority.In addition to ViaCrucis' good post above, I would say that if we are talking about divine authority, then we must be talking about authority given divinely, i.e., by God.
To this, I'm sure a Mormon could say "Yes! Exactly! We believe that God gave authority directly to Joseph Smith via ______" (the first vision, or some other time when JS claimed to receive messages from God). Okay then. And then your leaders subsequent to JS received that same authority how? Did they all, as in each and every one of them down to a man, also have 'first vision' experiences, wherein God the Father and Jesus appeared to them and told them anew that all the other churches were wrong, and only they individually would have the power to restore what had been lost? No, right? The Mormon restoration is a one-time deal, completed with the establishment in 1830 of the Church of Jesus Christ under the leadership of Joseph Smith.
This begs the question of where the supposed 'divine authority' went in Mormonism after the death of JS (well, this and the succession crises/shattering of Mormonism into hundreds of pieces), or at least it would if I did not already know that you guys believe that the authority given to JS by God is maintained in those who followed him in the Mormon leadership, even though this stance -- like all restorationists' stances on this point -- lays bare the hypocrisy of the Mormon religion on this point in claiming that their religion (Mormonism) can be maintained by the passing on of divine authority beyond the founding generation even if the mechanism for receiving that authority has changed in the meantime, whereas others' religion (Christianity) cannot be maintained because the mechanism for receiving that authority has changed since the founding generation (e.g., the apostolic fathers were taught and/or ordained by the apostles, not by Christ Himself, so they are not to be trusted for some reason).
It's complete and utter hypocrisy and Mormonism must invent lie upon lie in a desperate attempt to exonerate itself from its own rules, and still inevitably fails to do so eyes of everyone but the already-convinced.
I actually appreciate your candor. This is almost exactly what we believe, except that this priesthood authority can be found in the Bible. That priesthood authority was fought for for centuries, and to a certain extent is still being fought for today.You do realize that from the perspective of literally every non-Mormon Christian this is literally inventing a problem.
"There was a lack of people who had the direct and appropriate priesthood authority" And we would ask, "What priesthood authority?" And you would then explain to us how Christ established for His true Church a priesthood, and it is this priesthood authority that was lost but has now been restored in God's true Church. We would then ask, "Where, exactly, can we find out about this 'priesthood authority'?" And of course you then tell us that it can be found in scriptures outside of the Bible which God gave Jewish prophets who sailed to America, which our founder found written on golden tablets in his backyard after being told where to find them by an angel. He was also told directly by God the Father and Jesus Christ that he was the prophet to restore the true Church and so he was uniquely able to translate the golden plates by use of a special stone placed into a hat. And that it is in these writings, and the authority of the prophet God chose, that the true Church was basically lost because it lost the priesthood authority, which was then restored. To which we would say, "Golly that sounds awfully convenient." And it may seem like I'm being rude and/or cheeky here. But this is, quite literally, what your church is telling us. This is the reason we are supposed to leave our churches and join yours, and is the crux of the whole matter: Our churches lack a thing your church does, a thing which is only found in writings and statements that are associated exclusively with the founder of your church--either from things he claimed to have translated or have said/written by divine authority as a prophet.
This isn't me trying to be insulting, this is me trying to point out exactly what it is Christians, such as myself, are hearing here. This is what various Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians are hearing when you say there was a lack of people who had the direct and appropriate priesthood authority.
-CryptoLutheran
What do you think the fight over Peter's "keys" is all about, that you read in the history of Christianity? Another word for "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" is "priesthood authority". Peter was given these "keys of the kingdom of heaven" as recorded in Matthew 16:19, and the question is: did he pass his "keys" on to another apostle that succeeded him?
That is a good question. Here is the answer:Matt 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.
Later in Matthew 18, when Jesus again talks about binding/loosing, why does he use a plural "you" if he's only giving Peter authority to bind/loose?
That is a good question. Here is the answer:
Matthew 16:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jesus in the scripture is giving Peter the 'keys of the kingdom of heaven.
Later on, in Matthew 18:18 Jesus gives the other 11 the same power and authority to bind and loose as Peter had, but there is no mention of 'keys' being given, because Peter was the leader of the 12 and he held the 'keys' himself.
It is exactly the text that warrants my interpretation. In Matthew 16, the Lord Jesus Christ gives Peter the "keys". No other apostle is present in this presentation.I don't buy it. It seems like the keys are directly connected to the binding and loosing and he gives all of the apostles the power to bind and loose. It reads as if the keys are what's used for binding and loosing - like they're locking or unlocking a chain. I don't see the warrant in dividing keys from the action of binding and loosing, and the power of binding and loosing is given to all of the apostles in Matt 18. I think you're reading too much into it, and certainly more than is warranted by the text.
It is exactly the text that warrants my interpretation.
In Matthew 16, the Lord Jesus Christ gives Peter the "keys". No other apostle is present in this presentation.
Then in Matthew 18 he gives the apostles the power to bind and loose, but no keys are mentioned.
Here is why: only 1 man holds all the keys of the kingdom of heaven at a time on earth.
Peter then gave his apostles assignments to go out to certain areas and gives them the keys to that area only, and to use the power of binding and loosing to preach the gospel and baptize and organize a church. This way, order can be assured in the church.
IOW if Peter just said go, and preach the gospel and baptize, the apostles would go hilly nilly over hills and vale and city and country, passing each other in the night, setting up organizations in the same areas, and would have created a mess of confusion. The keys are given to reduce this confusion and bring order, which it did for Peter and the other apostles.
It is exactly the text that warrants my interpretation. In Matthew 16, the Lord Jesus Christ gives Peter the "keys". No other apostle is present in this presentation.
Then in Matthew 18 he gives the apostles the power to bind and loose, but no keys are mentioned.
Here is why: only 1 man holds all the keys of the kingdom of heaven at a time on earth. Peter was that man in the first century. Peter then gave his apostles assignments to go out to certain areas and gives them the keys to that area only, and to use the power of binding and loosing to preach the gospel and baptize and organize a church. This way, order can be assured in the church.
IOW if Peter just said go, and preach the gospel and baptize, the apostles would go hilly nilly over hills and vale and city and country, passing each other in the night, setting up organizations in the same areas, and would have created a mess of confusion. The keys are given to reduce this confusion and bring order, which it did for Peter and the other apostles.
There is one major difference in your line of authority.
Our line is like this:
1) JS was ordained by the original apostle Peter. JS too, was a special witness of Jesus because he saw him and talked with him.
2)Then Jesus Christ showed himself to the men that JS would call to be the new quorum of 12 apostles in this dispensation of the fullness of times. These men were special eye witnesses of Jesus because they saw him too. Similar to how Paul was a special eye witness of Jesus after his experience on the road to Damascus.
3) These apostles went out and ordained bishops.
4) When a bishop died, he was replaced by an apostle, who came to the area and chose a new bishop and ordained him to his office.
The main difference is that your bishops today get their authority from another bishop.
Our bishops get their authority through living apostles.
Revelaltions is right, Jesus does hold the keys.According to be book of Revelation only Jesus hold the key.
"In this sense Jesus, when appointing his disciples to be his successors, used the familiar formula (Matt. xvi. 19, xviii. 18). By these words he virtually invested them with the same authority as that which he found belonging to the scribes and Pharisees who "bind heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but will not move them with one of their fingers"; that is, "loose them," as they have the power to do (Matt. xxiii. 2-4). In the same sense, in the second epistle of Clement to James II. ("Clementine Homilies," Introduction), Peter is represented as having appointed Clement as his successor, saying: "I communicate to him the power of binding and loosing so that, with respect to everything which he shall ordain in the earth, it shall be decreed in the heavens; for he shall bind what ought to be bound and loose what ought to be loosed as knowing the rule of the church." Quite different from this Judaic and ancient view of the apostolic power of binding and loosing is the one expressed in John xx. 23, where Jesus is represented as having said to his disciples after they had received the Holy Spirit: "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained." It is this view which, adopted by Tertullian and all the church fathers, invested the head of the Christian Church with the power to forgive sins, the "clavis ordinis," "the key-power of the Church.""BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com
How does one lock or unlock without a key?
Matthew 16:19 -
Luke 11:52 “How terrible for you teachers of the Law! You have kept the key that opens the door to the house of knowledge; you yourselves will not go in, and you stop those who are trying to go in!”
Colossians 2:3 He is the key that opens all the hidden treasures of God's wisdom and knowledge.
Revelation 3:7 [ The Message to Philadelphia ] “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: “This is the message from the one who is holy and true. He has the key that belonged to David, and when he opens a door, no one can close it, and when he closes it, no one can open it.
Curiously, the following extract from the Talmud provides a Jewish setting for both my understanding and the traditional Christian one. “How do you know that if ten people pray together the Sh˒khinah [“manifested divine presence”] is there with them? Because it is said, ‘God stands in the congregation of God’ (Psalm 82:1a) [and a “congregation” must have a minyan of at least ten]. And how do you know that if three are sitting as a court of judges the Sh˒khinah is there with them? Because it is said, ‘In the midst of judges he renders judgment’ (Psalm 82:1b [taking elohim to mean “judges”; compare Yn 10:34–36&N]).” (B’rakhot 6a)https://cldibillings.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Binding-and-Loosing.pdf
Clement was always a bishop, but never an apostle, so when Clement died, another apostle would need to visit Rome and find a successor for Clement, and give that successor the keys to lead and guide the church of Rome.
No, the chief cornerstone is always Jesus. The current/living apostles and prophets are the other part of the foundation. If they die, and are not replaced then Ephesians 4:12-13 are not able to be done properly, and Ephesians 4:14 is the way the churches stumble forward. Read the history and you find that this is exactly what happened to the churches after the apostles were murdered.Do you replace the Cornerstone, too? Why replace the foundation if the walls are already there? When did the foundation crumble?
Revelaltions is right, Jesus does hold the keys.
But according to Matthew 16, he would give those same keys to Peter.
Peter called Clement to be the bishop of Rome. Peter gave Clement the keys to lead and guide the church in Rome, but he did not make Clement an apostle. Clement was always a bishop, but never an apostle, so when Clement died, another apostle would need to visit Rome and find a successor for Clement, and give that successor the keys to lead and guide the church of Rome.
Remember the keys unlock the authority you have to bind and loose. If you are not given the right to use your power, you cannot use it. That keeps order in the church and God's house is a house of order.
If your father gives you a car (the power to get from a to b), but tells you that you must come to him for the keys to unlock that power for the first 6 months, so he can control how you use your power, and make sure you use it wisely, you get a glimpse of Peters roll.
How does this key thing work in a practical application:
Peter, who holds all the keys, calls Clement to be the bishop of Rome. He then gives Clement the keys that unlock his power to bind and loose, but just for Rome. Clement now can use his power to bind and loose, call other officers to assist him, such as elders and deacons, and priests, and pastors, and evangelists, and teachers, etc. Clement then gives these officers certain keys that unlock the power and authority of their particular offices and what they are instructed to do.
None of these assistants, have the power to call a new bishop, or go to an adjacent city and set up the church there. That is the duty and power and authority of an apostle. Thus maintaining order in the church.
The power of the keys is more than just binding and loosing. It gives the holder the power of presidency and control. If everyone was going around doing what the apostle was supposed to do, you can see that things could get out of control fast.
So the keys give the holder, not only the power to bind and loose, but to control who receives this power and when it can be used. Peter was the head of the church, and had this presidency and control by virtue of holding all the keys that Jesus gave to him. He was the one who told the other apostles where they would serve and gave them partial keys for that area only. Then that apostle could go there and call people to bind and loose, but to also control that power by giving the keys to a bishop, and the bishop then had the presidency and control of the keys in his area only.
That is the practical application of the keys.
Because those keys were taken from men, we have today 3500 different churches all teaching doctrines that do not agree with each other. We have thousands of "so-called" Peters, going around setting up churches and organizing advertising campaigns to secure members, setting up fund raising organizations that will pay their ministers. It is kind of a mess. This is not how the church should operate.
No, the chief cornerstone is always Jesus. ...
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