Idolatry

Jipsah · 2025-08-26T17:47:04-0500

Daniel Carlton said:
Is this not a problem for certain churches who claim to be following apostolic teaching?

I've found that the accusation of idolatry is usually dircted at those whose traditions include icons or statuary. Personally, I've never met anyone who I reckoned worshipped either a picture or a statue. "oh, them Catrholics worship that crucifix." No, not unless they're suffering from a mental afflicton. "those Orthodox are praying to that icon." No, the icon is just a pictture, and no one expects it to answer back, leave the pic to get a drink of water, or hum "Jerusalem".

It's easy to play the "Those people worship them images " game when it makes you feel superior somehow, but I've never known the charge to be true.

Jipsah · 2025-08-26T18:05:49-0500

NBB said:
Some people have a custom of kneeling before statues, if that is not worship what it is?

Different customs. Being Korean, I "bow down" (which is how you phrase bowing when you stronly diapprove of it) to all my brethren in the church, and to anyone who bows to me, when I walk past t altar, or when handed the cup during the Eurcharist, etc. Is a sign of respect, and not of worship. (No, I don't worship old man Park, and speaking candidly, neither of us likes the other a bit, but we still bow to each other when we pass in the hall. So no, bowing does not presupose worship.

NBB said:
Even if they are not worshiping, the bible says to not bow before other than God.

How far need we carry that. Is an inclination of the head when meeting someone a forbidden bow? Is the inclination of the head and upper body as a sign of respectful aggreement verboten? Are we now to condemn forms courtest from cultures not our own as idolatrous? I think the idea idea is ridiculous.

RileyG · 2025-08-26T18:11:12-0500

Jipsah said:
Different customs. Being Korean, I "bow down" (which is how you phrase bowing when you stronly diapprove of it) to all my brethren in the church, and to anyone who bows to me, when I walk past t altar, or when handed the cup during the Eurcharist, etc. Is a sign of respect, and not of worship. (No, I don't worship old man Park, and speaking candidly, neither of us likes the other a bit, but we still bow to each other when we pass in the hall. So no, bowing does not presupose worship.

How far need we carry that. Is an inclination of the head when meeting someone a forbidden bow? Is the inclination of the head and upper body as a sign of respectful aggreement verboten? Are we now to condemn forms courtest from cultures not our own as idolatrous? I think the idea idea is ridiculous.

Not to mention, people in the United Kingdom bow (male)or curtsy (female) to the monarch when he passes by. Even in Queen Elizabeth’s funeral, mourners bowed or curtsied to her casket when it passed by.

Context is everything.

Jipsah · 2025-08-26T18:20:54-0500

Daniel Carlton said:
I have plenty of quotes. I will start posting them tomorrow.

We'll all be waiting with bated breath. And not bowing.

Jipsah · 2025-08-26T18:24:11-0500

David Lamb said:
some Anglicans address their clergymen as "Father," use incense, and practice confession to a "priest."

Guilty as charged!

Jipsah · 2025-08-26T18:54:46-0500

Daniel Carlton said:
Yes, I am arguing the affirmative and I will prove not only that idolatry was condemned by the ancient church

Easy argument to win here, since we're all in agreement o that point. But if you enjoy "preaching to the choir", go for it.

Daniel Carlton said:
but also it is as we see in the second commandment- made things that are venerated.

Like the Cross of Christ?

Daniel Carlton said:
Now my opponents are going to get desperate

I'm fairly frothing at the mouth even now.

Daniel Carlton said:
, engage personal attacks

Hmmm... OK, You're literally Hitler.

Daniel Carlton said:
and perhaps even deliberately tell lies.

I'm 6'3 and classically handsome.

Daniel Carlton said:
Why? Becuase they are here to defend their church

My church is red hot, your church ain't diddly squat!

Daniel Carlton said:
. I am here to defend the faith, one true faith.

I 've waiting for you to make that startling revelation.

Daniel Carlton said:
There has already been a bogus term introduced - “icon”

OK, I admit it - I made that word up myself.

Daniel Carlton said:
. An icon is an idol.

Well, I reckon if you say so then there's an end of it.

Daniel Carlton said:
The people who attempt to make a (false) distinction between idol and icon are simply trying to justify their error and sin.

Yep, no question about it. And also in a vicious attempt to discredit a gallant defenddr og the faith (that would be you, of course).

Daniel Carlton said:
Next witness)

"Your honor, I move that this case be dismissed on the grounds of the Sanity Clause!
Motion denied! Everybody knows there ain't no Sanity Clause!"

Daniel Carlton said:
Justin martyr. Credited as the first Christian apologist defines idolatry as “set in shrines and called Gods”.

Right. And afaik, no, there are no icons or statuary claiming to be images of God, or any collectively caled "gods:". Do you know of any?

Daniel Carlton said:
So something that is made and venerated.

That ain't what he saidc, is it? That's just what you happen to believe, worth the price charged.

So you wiffed that one. Any more you'd care to try?

The Liturgist · 2025-08-26T21:56:05-0500

Jipsah said:
No, the icon is just a pictture, and no one expects it to answer back, leave the pic to get a drink of water, or hum "Jerusalem".

Indeed if it hummed Jerusalem that would cause a bit of a kerfluffle since that hymn is only a bit over 200 years old, and most of our hymns are over a thousand years old, composed by the likes of St. Romanos the Melodist, St. Ephrem the Syrian, St. John of Damascus … actually a lot of Greco-Syrians who are venerated in both the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, which is one reason why I advocate for EO-OO renewal.

RileyG · 2025-08-26T22:11:24-0500

Jipsah said:
Guilty as charged!

As a Catholic, I go to confession weekly and call ALL priests Father! Not embarrassed by that at all!

RileyG · 2025-08-26T22:14:08-0500

Interesting no one in (small o orthodox) Christian history had problem with icons and/or statues until relatively recently.

***yes, I’m aware Orthodox Church doesn’t venerate statues or use them. It’s my understanding some stature are used outside liturgical purposes. Statues just aren’t part of their tradition. Not that they are “idolatry.” ***

RileyG · 2025-08-26T22:15:40-0500

RileyG said:
Interesting no one in (small o orthodox) Christian history had problem with icons and/or statues until relatively recently.

***yes, I’m aware Orthodox Church doesn’t venerate statues or use them. It’s my understanding some stature are used outside liturgical purposes. Statues just aren’t part of their tradition. Not that they are “idolatry.” ***

The same can said about venerating Mary, most Holy Mother of God, or prayers for the dead.

Even Luther had a profound devotion towards the Virgin Mary, and wasn’t opposed to prayers for the dead. He also believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Hmmmm…..

The Liturgist · 2025-08-26T23:30:36-0500

RileyG said:
The same can said about venerating Mary, most Holy Mother of God, or prayers for the dead.

Even Luther had a profound devotion towards the Virgin Mary, and wasn’t opposed to prayers for the dead. He also believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Hmmmm…..

And he was a fan of iconography, such as the Crucifix.

David Lamb · 2025-08-27T01:47:18-0500

RileyG said:
Priest. No need for the quotation marks. It comes from a German word translated to English that means elder.

As I have said before (perhaps not in replying to you), in the New Testament, completely different Greek words are used for "priest" and "elder". "Priest" is "hiereus", and "elder" is "presbuteros." Surely we don't define bible word by their English etymology. The leaders of New Testament churches were never in the bible referred to as "hiereus."

Carl Emerson · 2025-08-27T04:40:24-0500

Friends I skim read this thread and i don't think anyone mentioned Moses being commanded to make a graven image of a snake and lift it up for all to see for their healing.

Strong in Him · 2025-08-27T05:28:51-0500

Carl Emerson said:
Friends I skim read this thread and i don't think anyone mentioned Moses being commanded to make a graven image of a snake and lift it up for all to see for their healing.

I thought of that too.

RileyG · 2025-08-27T09:48:46-0500

David Lamb said:
As I have said before (perhaps not in replying to you), in the New Testament, completely different Greek words are used for "priest" and "elder". "Priest" is "hiereus", and "elder" is "presbuteros." Surely we don't define bible word by their English etymology. The leaders of New Testament churches were never in the bible referred to as "hiereus."

It’s my understanding priest simply means elder in our English language. There’s really no distinction. I understand what you are saying, though.

Peace

Niels · 2025-08-27T10:14:01-0500

The essence of idolatry pertains to the worship of the creation rather than the creator.

RileyG said:
Interesting no one in (small o orthodox) Christian history had problem with icons and/or statues until relatively recently.

***yes, I’m aware Orthodox Church doesn’t venerate statues or use them. It’s my understanding some stature are used outside liturgical purposes. Statues just aren’t part of their tradition. Not that they are “idolatry.” ***

There were iconoclastic movements in Byzantium. In fact, disagreement over the use of icons was one of the things that weakened the empire.

What those critical of iconography may overlook is how images are useful for educational purposes. I saw an interview with an Orthodox priest who compared the iconography in their church building to a graphic novel. He explained that it helps make the message more accessible to a greater variety of people. They also serve as reminders for people.

My personal preference is for simplicity, but I understand the appeal of icons. Along with what I mentioned above, I like the idea of church members contributing their talents for the cause. Artists contributing art, musicians contributing music, brick-layers laying bricks etc. If that can be done, rather than simply commissioning professionals outside of the church, it stands to create a greater sense of community and belonging.

If people are worshiping God rather than worshiping the icons, calling them idols misses the point in my opinion.

RileyG · 2025-08-27T10:21:58-0500

Niels said:
The essence of idolatry pertains to the worship of the creation rather than the creator.

There were iconoclastic movements in Byzantium. In fact, disagreement over the use of icons was one of the things that weakened the empire.

What those critical of iconography may overlook is how images are useful for educational purposes. I saw an interview with an Orthodox priest who compared the iconography in their church building to a graphic novel. He explained that it helps make the message more accessible to a greater variety of people. They also serve as reminders for people.

My personal preference is for simplicity, but I understand the appeal of icons. Along with what I mentioned above, I like the idea of church members contributing their talents for the cause. Artists contributing art, musicians contributing music, brick-layers laying bricks etc. If that can be done, rather than simply commissioning professionals outside of the church, it stands to create a greater sense of community and belonging.

If people are worshiping God rather than worshiping the icons, calling them idols misses the point in my opinion.

Icons are often called windows into heaven, because they remind people of the divine, or a particular saint, or the Mother of God etc

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