idk if this belongs here or what? But i have to be getting this all wrong...

here's a thought.

the scenes in Isaiah 6 and Revelation 4, 5, 7, 15, and 19, all take place not on the New Earth, but in heaven as the intermediate state. In Isaiah 6 and Revelation 4 and 5 it is specific beings who are praising and bowing, not meant to represent human beings in general. During the 5th seal, the martyrs under the altar are not praising, they're unhappy, they're waiting, and they're asking for God to avenge them, they are told to rest a little while longer. Meaning they had been in a state of rest, but await the Lord's return.

so what we have is an intermediate state heaven, not the Eternal State new Earth, During this time before the 6th seal, we have designated beings that worship before the throne, while many are resting. If we take Jesus' parable from Luke 16 into account, Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is resting, he's not described as doing anything but is being comforted. All parties in this parable are conscious, but the rich man experiences conscious torment and heat, while Abraham and Lazarus experience conscious rest and comfort.

After the 6th seal, the great multitude, which IS supposed to represent a broader scope of humanity, I believe all those saved up until that point as I believe this is rapture language, but anyway, NOW they are praising but we're talking about the last 3.5 years at most. It's a temporary activity focused on praising and singing before the throne, in the intermmediate state. It's not hundreds or thousands of years, but only a temporary thing. After going back down to Earth, there are no more scenes of praising and singing are there? there's ruling and reigning, and God dwelling with men on a New Earth, on which, there is no temple. I'd argue, no more religious practice, because our means of relating to God is seeing Him face to face, not praying to an invisible God, or doing other religious rituals to try to relate to someone we can't just talk to face to face. Now we can.

So I think, singing and praising will happen, but it will be centered in the intermediate state, not something emphasized on the New Earth, and for at least some of us, it will be a very limited period of time, not something the saints are doing right now. They're resting. Not to be mistaken with soul sleep, they're conscious but resting and being comforted.

at least that's what I can deduce by the timing of when the vast multitude is shown praising and worshiping, where it is, when it is, combined with Jesus' parables and the fact that before the 6th seal the saints aren't praising, and on the New Earth no big singalong scenes are shown.

I could be off, but that's what the Revelation text says as far as timing at least, and that's where it's focused on those activities.

Jamdoc said:

Isaiah 2 is not talking about the New Earth, Isaiah 2 is talking about the Messianic Kingdom.

Click to expand...

Just what I said: Isaiah 2:2-5 does not fit in Eternity. It refers to the Millennium period.

Jamdoc said:

It's Isaiah 65 that specifically says, a New Earth.

Click to expand...

Isaiah 65:17 mentions the new heavens and earth as something that will certainly happen. Then verse 18-25 - But........
Meaning - before that comes, Be glad and rejoice, ...for My people will live safely,....... in their own homes and eat their own produce......

Jamdoc said:

at least that's what I can deduce by the timing of when the vast multitude is shown praising and worshiping, where it is, when it is, combined with Jesus' parables and the fact that before the 6th seal the saints aren't praising, and on the New Earth no big singalong scenes are shown.

Click to expand...

I admire your sincere efforts to obtain the truth.
The vast multitude seen in Rev 7:9, are living Christian peoples, who stood firm in their faith during the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
They are the holy people that will be in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ comes against them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8

The souls of the Christian martyrs, Revelation 6:9-11, rest under the Altar in heaven. They are allowed to cry out at times. Revelation 19:1-3
ONLY the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, will be raised at His Return. Rev 20:4

keras said:

Just what I said: Isaiah 2:2-5 does not fit in Eternity. It refers to the Millennium period.

Isaiah 65:17 mentions the new heavens and earth as something that will certainly happen. Then verse 18-25 - But........
Meaning - before that comes, Be glad and rejoice, ...for My people will live safely,....... in their own homes and eat their own produce......

Click to expand...

come on man.. seriously?

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Click to expand...

If it's about the Millennial Kingdom as you claim it switches to in verse 18, rejoice forever in a temporary state on an already existing Earth? He creates Jerusalem that already exists?

No it's the New Jerusalem.

keras said:

I admire your sincere efforts to obtain the truth.
The vast multitude seen in Rev 7:9, are living Christian peoples, who stood firm in their faith during the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
They are the holy people that will be in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ comes against them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8

The souls of the Christian martyrs, Revelation 6:9-11, rest under the Altar in heaven. They are allowed to cry out at times. Revelation 19:1-3
ONLY the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, will be raised at His Return. Rev 20:4

Click to expand...

The vast multitude, have been raptured, they are before the throne of God.
Isaiah 66.
The throne of God is in heaven, not Earth.

as ViaCrucis says, you're using scissors and duct tape to take Revelation 7 out of context.

They're doing their singalong in the intermediate state heaven, not the new earth.

Jamdoc said:

The vast multitude, have been raptured, they are before the throne of God.
Isaiah 66.
The throne of God is in heaven, not Earth.

as ViaCrucis says, you're using scissors and duct tape to take Revelation 7 out of context.

They're doing their singalong in the intermediate state heaven, not the new earth.

Click to expand...

Look what the text states, though.

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple : and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Now compare that with what the following text states, then explain how both can be true at the same time.

Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


and serve him day and night in his temple---vs---and no man was able to enter into the temple

That is clearly a contradiction if both are true at the same time. The only way to avoid a contradiction, Revelation 7:15 is meaning a time after the seven plagues of the seven angels are fulfilled.

Jamdoc said:

The vast multitude, have been raptured, they are before the throne of God.
Isaiah 66.
The throne of God is in heaven, not Earth.

Click to expand...

The 'rapture to heaven' is a false belief. Jesus refutes it; John 3:13, +
The Throne of God is a Spiritual concept. It can and has been seen on earth if God wills it. Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56

DavidPT said:

That is clearly a contradiction if both are true at the same time. The only way to avoid a contradiction, Revelation 7:15 is meaning a time after the seven plagues of the seven angels are fulfilled.

Click to expand...

Thank you DavidPT, you make a good point.
Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy about the Eternal state, after the Millennium, proved by how God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

DavidPT said:

Look what the text states, though.

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple : and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Now compare that with what the following text states, then explain how both can be true at the same time.

Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


and serve him day and night in his temple---vs---and no man was able to enter into the temple

That is clearly a contradiction if both are true at the same time. The only way to avoid a contradiction, Revelation 7:15 is meaning a time after the seven plagues of the seven angels are fulfilled.

Click to expand...

I think I explained to you before, it's like the parable of the 10 virgins. When the 5 wise virgins go into the feast, the doors are shut behind them, and nobody else can get in.
So the saints that are in, are in, but once the wrath of God starts, the doors are shut until the wrath of God is finished.
They can't enter if not in already.

It points to a more serious conviction, along with Amos 8, there is no post rapture salvation for gentiles, not during the wrath of God at least. Nobody repents during Revelation 9 or 16 do they?

Oh, and as a bonus, Revelation 7:15?

There's no temple on the New Earth.

so #1, either those in the temple never get to go to the new earth and are stuck in the intermediate heaven after God's tabernacle is with men on Earth, or, it's a bit of hyperbole that they never leave.

Bonus 2
Do you know what the sea of glass even is?
It's inside the inner courtyard of the temple, it's the heavenly version of the molten/brazen sea in the earthly temple. It's a mikvah. Revelation lays out heaven as a great temple, that Solomon's temple was an imitation of.

So Revelation 6, the martyrs are under the altar, that's in the inner courtyard, after they've overcome the mark of the beast, they're on the sea of glass, they've gone from being sacrifices, to being ritually cleansed.

So they're not in the holy of holies, but they're still inside the temple compound.

Jamdoc said:

it's like the parable of the 10 virgins. When the 5 wise virgins go into the feast, the doors are shut behind them, and nobody else can get in.
So the saints that are in, are in, but once the wrath of God starts, the doors are shut until the wrath of God is finished.
They can't enter if not in already.

Click to expand...

This is also in the Prophecy of Revelation 12, where the faithful Christian group will be taken to a place of safety during the 1260 days that the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; will happen.
But the group of Christians who failed to trust the Lord for His protection. Daniel 11:32, must remain in the holy Land until the wrath of God is over. Culminating in the glorious Return, when His angels will gather those from the place of safety, Matthew 24:31, and Jesus will resurrect those who did prove their faith by becoming martyrs. Revelation 20:4

keras said:

This is also in the Prophecy of Revelation 12, where the faithful Christian group will be taken to a place of safety during the 1260 days that the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; will happen.
But the group of Christians who failed to trust the Lord for His protection. Daniel 11:32, must remain in the holy Land until the wrath of God is over. Culminating in the glorious Return, when His angels will gather those from the place of safety, Matthew 24:31, and Jesus will resurrect those who did prove their faith by becoming martyrs. Revelation 20:4

Click to expand...

the sea of glass is in the temple of God in heaven.

Revelation 15:7, it specifically says the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven. Not some temple on Earth. Revelation 15 in its entirety is a heavenly scene, the first verse clarifies that

Revelation 15

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Click to expand...

also the woman in Revelation 12 is not Christians. Christians did not give birth to Christ.
Christians are who the dragon targets after he can't kill the woman.

Revelation 12

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Click to expand...

That's not Christians, Christians didn't produce Christ, Christ produced Christians.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

These are Christians.

God does protect Israel on the Earth.
But Christians go through great tribulation, persecution by the dragon and his agents.

Jamdoc said:

also the woman in Revelation 12 is not Christians. Christians did not give birth to Christ.
Christians are who the dragon targets after he can't kill the woman.

Click to expand...

Christians are the progeny of the man child, Jesus: born out of Israel. [the Judah royal line]

The two Christian groups are shown in Zechariah 14:2 and again in Daniel 11:32. Like Revelation 12 says: one group is faithful to God and will be taken to a place on earth and kept safe. The other group, who did violate the Covenant, must remain and face persecution.

keras said:

Christians are the progeny of the man child, Jesus: born out of Israel. [the Judah royal line]

The two Christian groups are shown in Zechariah 14:2 and again in Daniel 11:32. Like Revelation 12 says: one group is faithful to God and will be taken to a place on earth and kept safe. The other group, who did violate the Covenant, must remain and face persecution.

Click to expand...

The woman gives birth to the man child.

Christians did not birth Christ.
Furthermore your interpretation falls flat as the group that is persecuted keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, they're not unfaithful.
The text states the OPPOSITE of your interpretation.

keras said:

There is no general resurrection when Jesus Returns; ONLY the GT martyrs.

Click to expand...

The passages below show:
(1) a general resurrection at the Lord's Return
(2) at the Lord's Return: all the dead Saints are resurrected
(3) at the Lord's Return: the Last Saints still living are "changed"
(4) these events occur WHEN the Lord "shall descent from heaven"

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" [1Thess 4:16]


1Co 15:50-53
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Th 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Jim

Jamdoc said:

Furthermore your interpretation falls flat as the group that is persecuted
keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ,
they're not unfaithful. The text states the OPPOSITE of your interpretation.

Click to expand...

It is Biblically True that, during the Great Tribulation, Satan attacked the Saints - those "keeping the commandments"
In fact, the NATURE of the Great Tribulation (aka Fourth Beast, Revelation Beast, and the RULE of the Anti-Christ
DURING Satan's "Little Season")... the nature of the Beast is to attack the Saints.


Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

It is Biblically True that, during the Great Tribulation, Satan attacked the Saints - those "keeping the commandments"
In fact, the NATURE of the Great Tribulation (aka Fourth Beast, Revelation Beast, and the RULE of the Anti-Christ
DURING Satan's "Little Season")... the nature of the Beast is to attack the Saints.


Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Jim

Click to expand...

He basically takes a few verses hyperliterally, and then allegorizes the rest of scripture around those verses. He takes John 3:13 hyperliteral and thus invalidates any verses that have humans being in heaven as allegorical.
So to him for Christians to be protected from the wrath of God they have to be taken to somewhere on earth to be protected, I think he thinks that all faithful Christians in the world will be teleported to the 3rd temple to keep them safe, even though it's the temple defiled by Antichrist.

then he has unfaithful Christians being persecuted. Even though the text says it is the saints, faithful Christians who are persecuted.

Jamdoc said:

The woman gives birth to the man child.

Christians did not birth Christ.
Furthermore your interpretation falls flat as the group that is persecuted keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, they're not unfaithful.
The text states the OPPOSITE of your interpretation.

Click to expand...

And we Christians follow that man child, the Jews don't.

Yes; the group in Rev 12:17 are Christion's, but it was them who will agree to a 7 year treaty with the Anti-Christ. Daniel 9:27. Isaiah 28:14-15 also refers to those Christians who make that treaty.

Jamdoc said:

He basically takes a few verses hyperliterally,

Click to expand...

Does 'hyperliteral' mean - a literal truth that disagrees with your beliefs?
John 3:13 is a literal truth. No one goes to heaven, restated by Jesus six times.
There is nowhere in the Bible that says Christians will go to live in heaven. We have work to do here, skiving off is not an option.

5thKingdom said:

The passages below show:
(1) a general resurrection at the Lord's Return
(2) at the Lord's Return: all the dead Saints are resurrected
(3) at the Lord's Return: the Last Saints still living are "changed"
(4) these events occur WHEN the Lord "shall descent from heaven"

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" [1Thess 4:16]


1Co 15:50-53
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Th 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Jim

Click to expand...

A general resurrection when Jesus Returns, is not Biblical.
The only people brought back to life then; will be the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4-6 ALL THE REST OF THE DEAD AWAIT THE GWT JUDGMENT.

Your 1 Cor 15:50-56, is a Prophecy for after the Millennium. It refers to those whose names are found in the book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

1 Thess 4:13018 never says people will go to heaven. Jesus has just descended from there!
Those people go with Him to Jerusalem; an earthly transportation, like what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

keras said:

And we Christians follow that man child, the Jews don't.

Yes; the group in Rev 12:17 are Christion's, but it was them who will agree to a 7 year treaty with the Anti-Christ. Daniel 9:27. Isaiah 28:14-15 also refers to those Christians who make that treaty.

Does 'hyperliteral' mean - a literal truth that disagrees with your beliefs?
John 3:13 is a literal truth. No one goes to heaven, restated by Jesus six times.
There is nowhere in the Bible that says Christians will go to live in heaven. We have work to do here, skiving off is not an option.

Click to expand...

Hyperliteral is when you incorrectly take figures of speech, parables, and illustrations as literal things with hard rules.

IE interpreting "the day of the Lord" as a 24 hour period where Jesus uses it interchangeably with "the year" in Isaiah, and imagine you before Jesus was born interpreting Daniel, you'd be looking at it with a preterist view at that point because of the 70 weeks would have already happened hundreds of years before the 1st advent. Only hindsight allows you to understand that the 70 "weeks" were 7 YEARS each.

Jamdoc said:

Hyperliteral is when you incorrectly take figures of speech, parables, and illustrations as literal things with hard rules.

Click to expand...

And you are the arbiter? I don't think so. Any Prophecy which can be fulfilled literally; will be.

Jamdoc said:

IE interpreting "the day of the Lord" as a 24 hour period where Jesus uses it interchangeably with "the year"

Click to expand...

Example please.
When it is known what the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath will actually be and what it entails, then it is plain that it will only take 24 hours to do what the Prophets tell us it will.
Any longer and the world would not survive.

It is well understood that the 'weeks' of Daniel 9, do represent 7 year periods. The 69th week = 483 years from commencement, was competed when Jesus was Crucified. The final 7 year period will end with the glorious Return of Jesus.

keras said:

And you are the arbiter? I don't think so. Any Prophecy which can be fulfilled literally; will be.

Click to expand...

Much of it will be fulfilled literally but sometimes Jesus used figurative language. John 3:13 was one of them. "nobody goes to heaven" was not His point. His point was to relay to people that HE came from heaven. John 3-6 involves multiple places where Jesus was speaking figuratively or symbolically and people didn't understand Him and tried to take His statements literally, like being born again, the woman at the well thought He was talking about physical water that'd result in her never being physically thirsty ever again, and the crowd in John 6 was thinking He was nuts when He talked about eating His flesh.

Some things are simple turns of phrase when people say "the day" and "the hour" it doesn't necessarily mean 24 hours or 60 minutes, it just means that's a moment in time when something is happening. For whatever reason, you don't note these uses as turns of phrase and instead base entire doctrines about them being exactly 24 hours or 60 minutes.

keras said:

Example please.
When it is known what the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath will actually be and what it entails, then it is plain that it will only take 24 hours to do what the Prophets tell us it will.
Any longer and the world would not survive.

Click to expand...

Isaiah 63:4, and Isaiah uses it in Isaiah 34:8. Day of vengeance, year of recompense, vengeance and recompense are both payback,, they're payback for the great tribulation that precedes the Day of the Lord.

keras said:

It is well understood that the 'weeks' of Daniel 9, do represent 7 year periods. The 69th week = 483 years from commencement, was competed when Jesus was Crucified. The final 7 year period will end with the glorious Return of Jesus.

Click to expand...

You only know that through hindsight. If you were alive prior to the first coming of Jesus you'd probably be having a preterist view of it because it's 70 weeks and the weeks would have been fulfilled long in the past. But because you were born well after Jesus, the idea that the 70 weeks were 70 sets of 7 years instead became established.