Identity

[Resha Caner]

No. Actions I that I take (but other persons don´t take) are informed in a way that distinguishes my actions (and my information) from theirs.

OK. I would think some of those things would at least serve as a touchstone to aid communication. But, thanks for the reply.

 

[quatona]

OK. I would think some of those things would at least serve as a touchstone to aid communication.

I don´t understand what you are trying to say here and how it relates to my response to your question, sorry.

 

[Rick Otto]

What great thread!

 

[SloriB]

Yes! Excellent! I appreciate you taking the time to reply in such detail. I don't want to invade your privacy, so I don't need more examples. These will suffice for a few follow-up questions:
* Do any of these stand out as more important to you? Are any of them "non-negotiable" - such as your father's health?
* Has there ever been a conflict between 2 f these? For example, where you had to sacrifice something in your professional life for the sake of your family?
* What types of things do you think help you preserve these areas? Professional organizations, family holidays, community clubs, cultural rituals?

Wow, you know how to bring in some thought-provoking questions. I've been thinking how I can answer them! Some real reflective activities here

Which is more important to me. Well, that's going to be an individual thing, as well as contextual. My father's health might have been the most important, but I was bought up to believe you let health become second as much as possible, when the other choice is something meaningful to you. The idea of no pain, no gain. If you want to succeed, you practice a steel skin and do what you can to work around the issue. That's what my mother always encouraged me with -- my dad too. An example would be how, despite being in constant, excruciating pain, my father refuses to take painkillers. He didn't want to be vulnerable; he wanted to face it head-on. So personally, working with people who need support, my career became the most important to me. It was a testament to the strength my parents gave to me, wanting to take burden off my parents, my learning to understand what "difficulty" means to different people, and appreciating goals and milestones.

If I had come from a less strengthened family, then the teaching might have been to pander to dad constantly, feeling sorry for him, but I was given a problem-solving and empowering household instead. Plus, my dad HATES pity.

So for me, non-negotiable is career and the people I assist.

Family comes a close second, because I've always been very close to my mother and I have the relationship that I can tell her anything. Okay, sometimes she goes into mum mode and worries, but then she relaxes and we talk about things calmly. She knows "mum stage" is kinda over, but she still likes to cheer from the sidelines.

I've been fortunate that I didn't have to sacrifice my career for family, but I have had relationships falter over it. I was with a very insecure person who felt threatened by my having a career. He felt I would become too good for him, or that he would be ignored all the time, so would block my work by causing fights and disruptions when I had things to complete. I chose my career, because I did put things aside to devote all my time to him, he ignored me constantly. I had internal conflict for a long time about it, but in the end, when I can't rely on others, I can still rely on me, mum and God. That's what I always hold true with.

Preservation of choices comes from continual experiences that affirm the lifestyle, choices, priorities and identity that is mine. When things are rough, I always had God and Mum to comfort me. They never let me down so that never changed. So family time is very important to me. In fact, my family rarely trade gifts at Christmas. Instead, we put the money towards a really nice Christmastime feast so we can enjoy the food and each other for a few days, rather than just the one. I like it this way, because it means Mum gets out of cooking a few days while we eat leftovers and she gets more of a holiday

Professional organisations are tied in with job satisfaction for me. I've had successes in my career and it felt good to know I could do good things for others. When something feels good, you want to continue it. I get the pleasure of knowing I did the right thing -- or the best thing. I like to be the rule-follower, and I find security in it. Also, I find my colleagues very enjoyable people to talk with when we have Skype meetings. They are very insightful individuals who always make me consider new perspectives, and I teach them things too. Part of my joy in my work is that I'm always learning things. I LOVE to learn new facts or ideas and embrace them by researching fully. I love to understand more and more how the world works.

Community clubs. . . I don't really hold to that many, as I find some of the competition within groups a little tiresome. Just recently a woman I know deleted me from her list because she thinks I want her husband. No! I've known him for four years, and even at my most vulnerable, I was never interested in him because I consider him HERS and that means I've never even entertained the idea. He's a great friend -- but I have never imagined him another way. Of course, it feels like convicted without guilt, and it's an awkward situation. That stuff happens a lot because I have more male friends than females. It's like I get punished for not being butt-ugly, shallow, and uneducated. I'm not going to sell myself short to make someone else feel better -- been there, done that -- so I mostly just avoid. I have lost friendships over it, but it feels inevitable when there's no concrete proof I was only interested in having a friendship.

Cultural rituals. I think what holds me to those is that I gave them up for someone in the past, and I regretted it. I yearned to have them back, but lost my voice with them. I now know the importance of it, and would not sacrifice it again. Most of my cultural rituals are with family inclusion, so that's what maintains those. But also, because I had to do without them, they became much more important. In recent years, I have learnt to hold true to myself and what I find important and find relationships that nourish, not negate it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Yes, absolutely. We are the sum of our experiences. I don't buy innate personality.

I think there's evidence of genetic/epigenetic/other pre-natal predisposing factors; whether that counts as innate, I don't know. Babies can show very different behavioural and affectual traits soon after birth.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'm hesitant to share too much online because I don't know people and therefore don't trust them.

It's possible to share personal information anonymously in places like this, if you're careful, but I understand your reserve; I generally only share what I'd share with strangers in the pub, because it's not that difficult to find out who I am and where I live.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Not at all. At least, not more aware than in the sense of 'conscious'. The newborn has far less awareness than an adult, but absorbs experiences at an incredible pace and rate. They're sponges.

Yes; we don't even need to be consciously aware of an experience for it to influence us. A lot of experiential processing is subconscious.

 

[bhsmte]

Maybe so, yet if conflict occurs between two of them, it must be addressed somehow.

How do you know when conflict occurs?

 

[Locutus]

I think there's evidence of genetic/epigenetic/other pre-natal predisposing factors; whether that counts as innate, I don't know. Babies can show very different behavioural and affectual traits soon after birth.

We start being "influenced" in utero. We can hear and taste and touch. We're flooded with cortisole etc if mom is anxious, and other 'brain chemicals' dependent on mood. We're born knowing parents voices and specific music (if played alot during pregnancy), and the family dog's bark. We know the taste of what mom ate. It's quite incredible how much is laid down in the last months of pregnancy. All coalesce to form what we imagine is this mysterious innate something. We think it's inherited, programmed into our genetic material, but it's all just environment.

 

[SloriB]

it all adds to the sum of us. the sensory stuff and the 'cognitive recognition'. we are shaped more by the things we don't believe we've cognitively recognised than we imagine, though. you see the trick there?

The sensory or cognitive recognition can be subconscious or conscious. That's what I meant. Yes, things that we don't necessarily think about at the time will affect us, but the brain -- conscious or subconscious -- has to have the material to take in in the first place. I hope that's better worded. I'm agree with you, just trying to highlight that we can't learn from that which never happened. Maybe I should have specified cognitive and sensory recognition can be conscious or subconsciously affecting us.

 

[Resha Caner]

How do you know when conflict occurs?

There are probably many different ways. One would be when 2 requests are made, but only 1 can be met.

 

[Resha Caner]

Which is more important to me. Well, that's going to be an individual thing, as well as contextual. My father's health might have been the most important, but I was bought up to believe you let health become second as much as possible, when the other choice is something meaningful to you. The idea of no pain, no gain. If you want to succeed, you practice a steel skin and do what you can to work around the issue. That's what my mother always encouraged me with -- my dad too. An example would be how, despite being in constant, excruciating pain, my father refuses to take painkillers. He didn't want to be vulnerable; he wanted to face it head-on. So personally, working with people who need support, my career became the most important to me. It was a testament to the strength my parents gave to me, wanting to take burden off my parents, my learning to understand what "difficulty" means to different people, and appreciating goals and milestones.

I stopped taking painkillers during my cancer treatments, but not for any noble reasons. It was just because the side effects were worse than the problem they supposedly solved. I have seen situations where people endure terrible pain simply because they're afraid the alternative will be worse. One of the worst fears people seem to have is losing control. It can get very complicated.

But I can tell the experience with your father has created a very unique family in your case.

So for me, non-negotiable is career and the people I assist.

This, on the other hand, seems a very typical "Western" kind of thing.

In fact, my family rarely trade gifts at Christmas. Instead, we put the money towards a really nice Christmastime feast so we can enjoy the food and each other for a few days, rather than just the one. I like it this way, because it means Mum gets out of cooking a few days while we eat leftovers and she gets more of a holiday.

That's a great idea. I like ritual - but ritual at the right time in the right place. For a while my family would choose a charity and donate all our "gift" money to the charity. Unfortunately we're all scattered now, so we don't see each other much during Christmas.

I LOVE to learn new facts or ideas and embrace them by researching fully. I love to understand more and more how the world works.

Discovery is my #1 motivator.

Cultural rituals. I think what holds me to those is that I gave them up for someone in the past, and I regretted it. I yearned to have them back, but lost my voice with them. I now know the importance of it, and would not sacrifice it again. Most of my cultural rituals are with family inclusion, so that's what maintains those. But also, because I had to do without them, they became much more important. In recent years, I have learnt to hold true to myself and what I find important and find relationships that nourish, not negate it.

Do you have an example of a cultural ritual you could share? Most of mine are associated with my church.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We start being "influenced" in utero. We can hear and taste and touch. We're flooded with cortisole etc if mom is anxious, and other 'brain chemicals' dependent on mood. We're born knowing parents voices and specific music (if played alot during pregnancy), and the family dog's bark. We know the taste of what mom ate. It's quite incredible how much is laid down in the last months of pregnancy. All coalesce to form what we imagine is this mysterious innate something. We think it's inherited, programmed into our genetic material, but it's all just environment.

It's epigenetics that seems to blur the line; epigenetic effects on parental DNA before conception can be passed to offspring and alter their gene expression (at least, in mouse studies). I suspect, when all's said and done, the nature vs nurture distinction is a crude over-simplification.

 

[Locutus]

It's epigenetics that seems to blur the line; epigenetic effects on parental DNA before conception can be passed to offspring and alter their gene expression (at least, in mouse studies). I suspect, when all's said and done, the nature vs nurture distinction is a crude over-simplification.

yes indeed, over simplification is right. I just hate to see the focus move away from nurture. there's long been a vested interest in going with 'nature'. avoidance of responsibility (for self or children).

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... there's long been a vested interest in going with 'nature'. avoidance of responsibility (for self or children).

Ah, OK. I see moral responsibility as a different (though not unrelated) problem, more to do with the finer points of freewill & determinism/indeterminism; a subject for a different thread, perhaps.

 

[SloriB]

But I can tell the experience with your father has created a very unique family in your case.

This, on the other hand, seems a very typical "Western" kind of thing.

Do you have an example of a cultural ritual you could share? Most of mine are associated with my church.

Yes, Dad's accident had a lot to do with it, but my mother moreso supported uniqueness. She never reprimanded us for things that were personal choice. I was very much a tomboy (girl that likes boy stuff) growing up, and in recent years I've seen parents confused if they should validate or reprimand kids for it, like it will make them gay, but my mother never worried. If I wanted to play ball with the boys, or with other gender-related things, she didn't mind. She encouraged (encourages) me in my research, my work, my music, my relationship, and my little fur family (a dog and cat). My parents always told me, you can be a sheep or a leader -- up to you. They didn't tarnish it with barriers or borders, because life is about making your own opportunities with what God gives you. Challenges can be faced.

My career being non-negotiable is a Westerner thing? I don't know. It was never a choice to fit in with others, or be a certain thing. I was just always someone who was very restless. Didn't sleep a lot, got easily bored. . . I just wanted for things to do. When you're in a household of people asleep, you soon work out that books are a great way to pass the time, and that I did. Mum accepted I wasn't a good sleeper from a young age, so she was fine if I was awake, as long as I was quiet enough to allow others' sleep. My love of books meant that I became attached to certain subjects and my curiously and excitement to learn just fueled it more. By the age of 13, I'd collected university books and prospectuses so my going to university was a matter of time. I hungered to find my adult place in the world.

There was a relationship I gave up my studies for -- I gave up everything he wanted including friends, hobbies, studies, writing, music and my religion. I hated it, but I was younger and scared that it would be my fault if I didn't do what he said. A month later, he left and I returned to everything I missed and was so thankful. While my mum is a homemaker and I adore her for it, it just didn't feel like something for me. I need to stay busy -- very busy. It doesn't matter how much I might love a person in my life, I can't give up those things again. Ever.

Cultural rituals. . . hmmmm. I'm not sure if they are all cultural rituals, but they are related to my heritage.
- my mother used to make Pavlova's every weekend, which is an Australian dessert
- I observe Australia day in remembering the history of our country
- I consider the lifestyles of our native persons, the aboriginals, and support their causes
- I don't eat red meat on Good Friday
- I try not to swear, but I admit to saying Fork and Spoon sometimes. (Hope you can crack that code, I don't want to say them.)
- I pray daily
- I love the beach and BBQs, which are an Australian cliche -- not that I've done them in quite a long time
- I watch the Christmas pageant that runs through my local city each year
- I used to watch the V8 Australia finals each year. V8 car racing is a big thing in Adelaide, particularly the final. As is football.
- I'm not sure if it's in the US too, but we have McHappy day. It's the day everyone eats at McDonald's and every Big Mac donates money to Ronald McDonald House, which gives short-term housing and food to families who's children need extensive medical care but live too far away from hospital. Each year it raises millions to loan the family a home to live in near the required hospital, helps feed the family and give them comfort while their very ill children are treated. I instead send money via their online donation box instead.
- Mum made a few dishes based on heritage. Toad in the Hole, specific puddings, or dinners, for example. Dad used to make French desserts before his disabilities.

I'm sure there's other points of influence, but those are probably it for now. My culture is important to me, but I don't mind if others aren't interested. These are the things that are important to me, and I'm sure others have things that are important to them. No need to judge them, just accept them as theirs and mine.

 

[timewerx]

How much of your identity would you say comes from the external (culture, community, family, profession) vs. what comes from within you?

I guess it would be little coming from external. I'm sort of a misfit. If I do fit in, it is mostly an act.

 

[Davian]

How much of your identity would you say comes from the external (culture, community, family, profession) vs. what comes from within you?

Echoing the thoughts of those from Benjamin Franklin, to philosophers like Dan Dennett working with the field of cognitive science, I would consider this is hard to say. Introspection may be a faulty manner in which to make such determinations.

“There are three things extremely hard: steel, a diamond, and to know one’s self.”
– Benjamin Franklin

 

[afishamongmany]

Hello fellow humans,
The more one thinks about it the more complex it seems.

Neither of the two extremes of 'tabla rasa' and 'What I am is completely of my own making', will bear the weight of knowing that two very different personalities can 'emerge' from very similar formative experiences and environments.

I'm now wondering if we shouldn't regard nature and nurture as both being external factors in shaping what we are. An individual's genetics are a given, we have no say in them. Whereas, at least with environment and circumstances, as we come to adulthood, our personal decisions do/can have some effect on outcomes.

For me this is the most interesting angle, to what extent can we / do we make ourselves? The loner type may say, I decide not to get too involved with others, but maybe their preference for their own company is innate, a given and not them deciding to be that kind of person?

Family, culture, community, 'life', do profoundly shape us. But how we respond individually to that shaping and all the individual choices we make along the way also have a considerable input into shaping us. If this is accepted it also means we have to accept, at least some, responsibility for what we are.
Go well
><>

 

[Resha Caner]

My career being non-negotiable is a Westerner thing?

I don't know you well enough to make any assertions, so it's just a suggestion for you to consider. I idolized my dad when I was young. I still do, but I think I'm a more balanced person now. In my youth I nearly copied his every step. I thought my mom had zero impact on me. Then, as I got older, I started to realize all the subtle ways I was like my mom. The older I get the more I realize her influence on me was equally large.

The point is, there can be influences on your life that you are unaware of, and sometimes it takes an outside nudge to get you thinking about them. I'm just trying to give that little nudge. If, in the end, you disagree with me, then it is what it is. You are the expert on you - not me.

I hungered to find my adult place in the world.

But think about this comment. Why is taking your place in the adult world linked to a profession? Not all cultures make that link. It's even a relatively recent one in Western society.

Cultural rituals. . . hmmmm. I'm not sure if they are all cultural rituals, but they are related to my heritage.
- my mother used to make Pavlova's every weekend, which is an Australian dessert
- I observe Australia day in remembering the history of our country
- I consider the lifestyles of our native persons, the aboriginals, and support their causes
- I don't eat red meat on Good Friday
- I try not to swear, but I admit to saying Fork and Spoon sometimes. (Hope you can crack that code, I don't want to say them.)
- I pray daily
- I love the beach and BBQs, which are an Australian cliche -- not that I've done them in quite a long time
- I watch the Christmas pageant that runs through my local city each year
- I used to watch the V8 Australia finals each year. V8 car racing is a big thing in Adelaide, particularly the final. As is football.
- I'm not sure if it's in the US too, but we have McHappy day. It's the day everyone eats at McDonald's and every Big Mac donates money to Ronald McDonald House, which gives short-term housing and food to families who's children need extensive medical care but live too far away from hospital. Each year it raises millions to loan the family a home to live in near the required hospital, helps feed the family and give them comfort while their very ill children are treated. I instead send money via their online donation box instead.
- Mum made a few dishes based on heritage. Toad in the Hole, specific puddings, or dinners, for example. Dad used to make French desserts before his disabilities.

Yeah, notice how many of those are connected to something material? Food, sports, money, etc.

Too often people get hooked on the abstract side of ritual and start to think, "Only Americans value freedom." Huh? Not at all true. But grilling hamburgers on the 4th of July ... I GUARANTEE you nothing in the world tastes like corn-fed beef grilled over mesquite coals. Globalization has (sadly) done a good job of pushing uniculture, but that taste originated here. And the unique association of hearing the Franklin/Jefferson narrative along with that physical experience is (for me) what makes culture. Meaning was learned through a contextual combination of words and things - not from an abstract lesson in school.

Other cultures can teach the same abstract lesson through different combinations of words and things, but the way I learned it becomes valuable to me. And it becomes a way I can teach that same lesson to my kids with passion. Trying to teach it using a different culture is largely a fake.