Icons...

[Thekla]

I admit there are some who cannot read very well. But they sure can listen. I do not like comparing someone with someone else. For we are all created unique..

When my son was especially ill, he could read words but he could not remember the previous sentence - so he could not make sense of what he read. He could only process short statements - anything more than five or six words would confuse him, or be "garbled" (inaccurate) in his understanding.

But he could look at an icon of an event in Scripture and then tell you all about the event.

Christ is for people like my son when he was ill, too.

And for children who are too young to read.

And for those who never learned to read.

Our Church loves and serves these as well.

 

[MamaZ]

I can hear,see,feel,touch,and taste with my human body. I can reason and I can imagine.. all this things I can do as a human being. I also can hate and love and doubt and fear ect.. Two sides of a coin actually. Before I was a believer I could do all these things. Now that I am a believer I want to build my faith in Him. In Him alone. For He is the lily of the valley and the rose of sharon to my life. He is my sweet incensen the holder of my life. To Him alone do I give all the glory.

 

[MamaZ]

I cannot even fathom God in my own reasoning. Only in my heart.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What does it matter if I and Thekla use icons and images in our contemplation of God? What skin off your nose is it?

 

[Thekla]

I cannot even fathom God in my own reasoning. Only in my heart.

I cannot even fathom (comprehend) God in my heart, but there I can know Him.

 

[MamaZ]

What does it matter if I and Thekla use icons and images in our contemplation of God? What skin off your nose is it?

read the full posts of what I have written. This is just a discussion between Thelka and I. I have already said if you want to use Icons it does not bother me. It is your choice to do so.. God can use all things. I choose not to. Where did the sweetness fo MoreCoffee? You usually are so sweet..

 

[Thekla]

I can hear,see,feel,touch,and taste with my human body. I can reason and I can imagine.. all this things I can do as a human being. I also can hate and love and doubt and fear ect.. Two sides of a coin actually. Before I was a believer I could do all these things. Now that I am a believer I want to build my faith in Him. In Him alone. For He is the lily of the valley and the rose of sharon to my life. He is my sweet incensen the holder of my life. To Him alone do I give all the glory.

The change that God renders to our disposition changes the way our senses "see, hear, etc." things.

If we have a carnal disposition we will see even the spiritual things of God carnally.

For my son when he was ill, for those who cannot read, the icons help to nurture them spiritually. And even for those who can read. For all who have the disposition to see them spiritually. And for those who do not yet have that disposition, icons can help to train or turn the senses so that the disposition can be more ready to melt and accept Christ.

 

[MamaZ]

I am very happy that your son was touched by them. Some may use them as I said. I choose not to. For me they are for the image of the carnal mind. But that may not be everyone. If I have offended I really did not mean to. I sure do apologize.

 

[Thekla]

I am very happy that your son was touched by them. Some may use them as I said. I choose not to. For me they are for the image of the carnal mind. But that may not be everyone. If I have offended I really did not mean to. I sure do apologize.

Thank-you for being gracious .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What does it matter if I and Thekla use icons and images in our contemplation of God? What skin off your nose is it?

Does the RCC have more statues and figurines than the EOC?

Anywho, I thought this EO member said it rather eloquently on this other thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t1662309-17/
ICONS OR IDOLS In the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches

Hi Mortanius,

I am aware of this icon, and I must admit that as a devout "new" Orthodox convert, I am somewhat troubled by it, in light of what you have so ably pointed out.

I can not answer you immediatly on thos particular issue. I will first have to get more input of this myself. That being said, I follow the ruling of the 7th Ecumenical Council which I am sure you are aware of, which was convened to discuss the validity of venerations of icons depicting the Saints, Theotokos and the Trinity in it's tratitional pose of the Three Angels, or the Baptism of the Christ.

I can not speak for the Catholic Church, as I am not a member, and have never been. As far as Orthodox belief goes, we do not necessarily ascribe any special virtue or power to a particular Saint. But, on that subject, recorded miracles HAVE occurred while believers had been praying before an icon, and that particular icon then does become the focus of special veneration, but NOT worship. (Which as you pointed out, is idolatory)

You have stated correctly, and you yourself appear to believe, that those upright members of our faith who are now with the Lord are not dead. And because of that, they are considered to be members of the Church still - only they are now in what we term the Church Triumphant, while we are still in the Church Militant.
Because they are still our Brothers and Sisters, they still care deeply for us, therefore we request them (Legal term "pray them") to petition our Lord for Mercy, much the same as we would request such from a fellow member of our earthly parish/congregation.
To an outsider (Protestant) veneration of icons may look like worship, but it is not. There is only a reverantial acknowledgement that they have fought the struggle before us , and have overcome. We are all made in the image of God, therefore we venerate that image not only in icons, but in one another.
That is an instruction of our Lord, His new commandment - To Love one another, as He has loved us.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Does the RCC have more statues and figurines than the EOC?

Anywho, I thought this EO member said it rather eloquently on this other thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t1662309-17/
ICONS OR IDOLS In the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches

As someone has astutely said, "The times, they are a'changin'." There was a time not too long ago when Catholic churches had lots of statuary. The Orthodox churches definitely prefer two-dimensional icons. Today most Catholic churches have dramatically reduced the number of statues and associated altars. Also, they have shifted the main altar from the east wall toward the congregation so that it is freestanding now.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As someone has astutely said, "The times, they are a'changin'." There was a time not too long ago when Catholic churches had lots of statuary. The Orthodox churches definitely prefer two-dimensional icons. Today most Catholic churches have dramatically reduced the number of statues and associated altars. Also, they have shifted the main altar from the east wall toward the congregation so that it is freestanding now.

There have always been churches "in the round" where the altar was placed away from any wall and was open and accessible on all sides.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

When my son was especially ill, he could read words but he could not remember the previous sentence - so he could not make sense of what he read. He could only process short statements - anything more than five or six words would confuse him, or be "garbled" (inaccurate) in his understanding.

But he could look at an icon of an event in Scripture and then tell you all about the event.

Christ is for people like my son when he was ill, too.

And for children who are too young to read.

And for those who never learned to read.

Our Church loves and serves these as well.

Images truly do help in learning on the scriptures - and this is something which is discussed often in the world of teaching...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for sharing both the words and the Icons!

Not a problem...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Scripture can be read carnally and used wrongly; we see examples of such in threads and posts here every day.

What is Scripture; but an Icon in and of itself, which is constructed from the Word of God by the Holy Spirit, which points to Christ.

Good way to consider things...and when reading and using your imagination to illustrate mentally what you study in Biblical history/events, you end up having mental icons as a result anyhow

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

There have always been churches "in the round" where the altar was placed away from any wall and was open and accessible on all sides.

Most of our Churches retain the 'Ad Orientum" altar. While some of our Churches have free standing altars, generally, our Pastors still face the altar, with their back to the people for everything except the service of the sacrament.

As someone has astutely said, "The times, they are a'changin'." There was a time not too long ago when Catholic churches had lots of statuary. The Orthodox churches definitely prefer two-dimensional icons. Today most Catholic churches have dramatically reduced the number of statues and associated altars. Also, they have shifted the main altar from the east wall toward the congregation so that it is freestanding now.

I always thought it a shame when, after Vatican II, there was a sort of mini-iconoclasm within the CC. Many beautiful altars were removed, the communion rails disappeared, along with much of the statuary and icons. However there are Many Churches which had enough room to place a free-standing altar in front of the east facing one.

Here in Ontario, there are quite a few; Church of our Lady in Guelp; St. Patrick's Kincora; Assumption in Windsor and Notre Dame Basilica in Ottawa to name just a few:

Church of Our Lady, Guelph:

St. Patrick's Kincora:

Assumption Windsor:

Notre Dam Basilica, Ottawa:

 

[bbbbbbb]

Most of our Churches retain the 'Ad Orientum" altar. While some of our Churches have free standing altars, generally, our Pastors still face the altar, with their back to the people for everything except the service of the sacrament.

I always thought it a shame when, after Vatican II, there was a sort of mini-iconoclasm within the CC. Many beautiful altars were removed, the communion rails disappeared, along with much of the statuary and icons. However there are Many Churches which had enough room to place a free-standing altar in front of the east facing one.

Here in Ontario, there are quite a few; Church of our Lady in Guelp; St. Patrick's Kincora; Assumption in Windsor and Notre Dame Basilica in Ottawa to name just a few:

Church of Our Lady, Guelph:

St. Patrick's Kincora:

Assumption Windsor:

Notre Dam Basilica, Ottawa:

Thanks for the great insights and great pictures! I agree with MoreCoffee that there always have been Catholic churches with freestanding altars. However, they were the exception rather than the rule. St. Peter's Basilica is a fine example. Today the rule is freestanding altars.

Theologically it does make a difference. Traditionally it was where the priest offered the corporate worship of the congregation to God, thus he faced the altar which represented the divine. Today it seems that it is more the joint worship of the congregation around the altar, which, IMO is not necessarily a bad thing.

BTW, the Lutheran Frauenkirche in Dresden, which has been beautifully reconstructed from the rubble of World War II doesn't even have an altar per se, but is focused on an elaborate pulpit with a large rank of organ pipes above it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Most of our Churches retain the 'Ad Orientum" altar. While some of our Churches have free standing altars, generally, our Pastors still face the altar, with their back to the people for everything except the service of the sacrament.



I always thought it a shame when, after Vatican II, there was a sort of mini-iconoclasm within the CC. Many beautiful altars were removed, the communion rails disappeared, along with much of the statuary and icons. However there are Many Churches which had enough room to place a free-standing altar in front of the east facing one.

Here in Ontario, there are quite a few; Church of our Lady in Guelp; St. Patrick's Kincora; Assumption in Windsor and Notre Dame Basilica in Ottawa to name just a few:

Church of Our Lady, Guelph:

St. Patrick's Kincora:

Assumption Windsor:

Notre Dam Basilica, Ottawa:

Very illustrative and necessary to see....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Some may wonder if icons can change...

 

[MoreCoffee]

I like this one