Icons...

[Thekla]

Yes God did create Adam with eyes.. Problem is not the eyes but the sin that seperated us from God. Now we have to have spiritual eyes to see Christ and His words in scripture. We also have to have spiritual ears to hear. Looking at icons is a carnal way of keeping images in your head. Scripture on the other hand we read with our eyes but we see and hear with the Spiritual eyes and ears.

Maybe for you, but this is not the case nor the teaching re: icons in the Orthodox Church. It is best for you to speak for yourself, but it is not of the Holy Spirit nor of Christ to misrepresent others - including those who have icons.

Scripture can be read carnally - in fact, the brain is made of flesh, and the disposition of the person reading can interpret the Scriptures "carnally".

We see the icons with our eyes, but they are read with the spiritual eyes and the spiritual heart, and they inform the spiritual heart.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

All this discussion of things "carnal" is increasing my "carnal knowledge"; which is quite distracting when discussing theology.

I need an Icon... NOW!

 

[MoreCoffee]

All this discussion of things "carnal" is increasing my "carnal knowledge"; which is quite distracting when discussing theology.

I need an Icon... NOW!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Maybe for you, but this is not the case nor the teaching re: icons in the Orthodox Church. It is best for you to speak for yourself, but it is not of the Holy Spirit nor of Christ to misrepresent others - including those who have icons.

Scripture can be read carnally - in fact, the brain is made of flesh, and the disposition of the person reading can interpret the Scriptures "carnally".

We see the icons with our eyes, but they are read with the spiritual eyes and the spiritual heart, and they inform the spiritual heart.

Scripture can be read carnally and used wrongly; we see examples of such in threads and posts here every day.

What is Scripture; but an Icon in and of itself, which is constructed from the Word of God by the Holy Spirit, which points to Christ.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm all better now; thanks Coffee, I needed that!

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm all better now; thanks Coffee, I needed that!

You are most welcome

 

[Thekla]

Scripture can be read carnally and used wrongly; we see examples of such in threads and posts here every day.

What is Scripture; but an Icon in and of itself, which is constructed from the Word of God by the Holy Spirit, which points to Christ.

Exactly

It is the disposition of the heart that affects the eyes, the ears, the brain ...

(The Gospels are sometimes referred to as an icon of Christ ...)

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Exactly

It is the disposition of the heart that affects the eyes, the ears, the brain ...

(The Gospels are sometimes referred to as an icon of Christ ...)

 

[MamaZ]

Maybe for you, but this is not the case nor the teaching re: icons in the Orthodox Church. It is best for you to speak for yourself, but it is not of the Holy Spirit nor of Christ to misrepresent others - including those who have icons.

what are you talking about here? How have I misrepresented any others? If you have Icons that is your descision. I myself have no need for them.


Scripture can be read carnally - in fact, the brain is made of flesh, and the disposition of the person reading can interpret the Scriptures "carnally".

Yes scripture can be read carnally and tried to be interpreted with human logic and reasoning. This is why scripture tells us that the carnal mind is emnity with God. For Gods ways are so much higher than our ways.

We see the icons with our eyes, but they are read with the spiritual eyes and the spiritual heart, and they inform the spiritual heart.

How do you read an icon?

 

[Thekla]

How do you read an icon?

With the eyes of the spiritual heart, to begin with.

Icons use a visual language to convey meaning - colors, arrangement, vanishing point, position, etc. - all these, like words, convey meaning.

The icon tells of those in whom Christ is victorious, and calls to mind their lives in Him.

Icons also depict events recorded in the Scriptures - in this, they call to mind the entire event at once (not as sentences, which call to mind in a 'serial' fashion).

As for your statement:
"Looking at icons is a carnal way of keeping images in your head."

Perhaps this is true for you; it is not an accurate description of the purpose nor the teaching about icons - it is a misrepresentation.

 

[MamaZ]

Well now reading to me needs words. I do not need to look at others victorious lives in Christ. He keeps perfect record of that. I am too busy running the race to look back to see how others are running the race. So I guess that is why I do not have any need for Icons.. I can look at a picture and assume it tells all. But I like to hear it first hand through the scriptures and apply it to my life. For I want my life to give glory to my Father who is in heaven..

 

[Thekla]

Well now reading to me needs words. I do not need to look at others victorious lives in Christ. He keeps perfect record of that. I am too busy running the race to look back to see how others are running the race. So I guess that is why I do not have any need for Icons.. I can look at a picture and assume it tells all. But I like to hear it first hand through the scriptures and apply it to my life. For I want my life to give glory to my Father who is in heaven..

Reading a text is a form of interpretation that uses logic and words.

Reading an icon is a form of interpretation that uses visual signs.

All whom are in Christ, and those in whom Christ is victorious, are agift from God to us. The Scriptures are a gift, and those that wrote the Scriptures are His gift to us.
Each person in Him is gifted to the benefit of all (Paul teaches this in Scripture).
The Scriptures state that the righteous will be in everlasting remembrance - they are 'remembered' by God, they are our brothers and sisters, and they are remembered by us.

I recall you speaking of dancing with joy in the Lord - as you said, like David. His example is remembered and practiced by you - this is no different than remembering other Saints of God, like those (including David) whose lives in Christ are remembered and who are depicted in icons.

We are to remember the "cloud of witnesses" who are an example to us in Christ.

 

[MamaZ]

Yes I do dance before the Lord like David. For when I burst out in dance it is for the Lords view and not because I am looking at an Icon of David dancing before the Lord. I love to read the scripture. I love to apply scripture to my life. I hide His word in my heart and the Lord brings back to my rememberance what I have read. But I sure don't look to david as being anything but a sinful man who loved God and was Loved by God. I do not need a picture telling me about David. I love to live Christ. Experience Him in everything I do.. It is amazing to me how faithful He is to His people and how He rejoices over us mere creations of His. He is an amazing Father.. I like to live in the here and now.

 

[MamaZ]

I wasn't practicing what David did.. I was truly dancing before my King.

 

[Thekla]

Yes I do dance before the Lord like David. For when I burst out in dance it is for the Lords view and not because I am looking at an Icon of David dancing before the Lord. I love to read the scripture. I love to apply scripture to my life. I hide His word in my heart and the Lord brings back to my rememberance what I have read. But I sure don't look to david as being anything but a sinful man who loved God and was Loved by God. I do not need a picture telling me about David. I love to live Christ. Experience Him in everything I do.. It is amazing to me how faithful He is to His people and how He rejoices over us mere creations of His. He is an amazing Father.. I like to live in the here and now.

When I say "Christ victorious in them", this is Christ overcoming their sinfulness.

As for icons, many here (GT) have said they don't need them (and everyone here can read); as Christians, we are also to be mindful of the needs of others - including those who do not read.

God indeed rejoices, as do all the angels, of those who turn to and are in Him. And we Orthodox do, too.

"Here and now" includes all who are in Him.

Just like the Scriptures, though recounting past events, are of the "here and now" - because they point to God Who is eternal.

 

[MamaZ]

I do not know all the sins men carry in their heart. Therefore I would rather look at Christ for I know He is the sinless one.. I cannot even relay how man men who believe in Christ have become overcomers.. But to God be the Glory.. I want to look at Him and not at others.

 

[MamaZ]

Here and now is watching God at work in peoples lives today. Not yesterday for it has passed. Not tomorrow for that day has not came yet. I want to live Christ every moment of every day in my life. For this way I can truly live knowing that He lives.. I love to hear testimony of what Christ has done in peoples lives don't get me wrong. But I sure don't need an icon of their life.. I need Christ in my life every moment.. For I seek him diligently..

 

[Thekla]

Here and now is watching God at work in peoples lives today. Not yesterday for it has passed. Not tomorrow for that day has not came yet. I want to live Christ every moment of every day in my life. For this way I can truly live knowing that He lives.. I love to hear testimony of what Christ has done in peoples lives don't get me wrong. But I sure don't need an icon of their life.. I need Christ in my life every moment.. For I seek him diligently..

I agree - we all need Christ in our lives every moment, and to seek diligently.

But your "not needing" an icon is about you - not about every person called by Christ, nor every person seeking Him.

And the church, the Church is for all who seek Him - not just those who can read.

 

[MamaZ]

I admit there are some who cannot read very well. But they sure can listen. I do not like comparing someone with someone else. For we are all created unique..

 

[Thekla]

I admit there are some who cannot read very well. But they sure can listen. I do not like comparing someone with someone else. For we are all created unique..

Indeed, they can listen.

So can readers - but readers still read the Scriptures even though they have also heard them.

God created us with the five senses - so in my Church, we nourish with spiritual things all the senses, not just some of them.

There is in modern educational theory the "different ways of learning". The ancient Churches have always used all these different learning styles because Christ is for everyone.