Icons...

[Thekla]

So you don't have any photographs of family or friends then? No puppy calendars or the like right?

Because, as you just quoted,

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness ..."

Any means any. That includes photographs, paintings, little cat figurines or action figures or puppets.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed; why, if interpreting the Scripture in this manner, would anyone have photographs, postcards, even allow children to draw objects ?

 

[JesusFreak78]

Through the study of scripture, church history and the iconoclast controversy which culminated in the 7th Ecumenical council.

Those scriptures can't be the bible since the bible tells us not to make any idols or any likeness of what is in heaven and so forth.

 

[JesusFreak78]

You are not providing any new data. This was all resolved 1400 years ago.

So why are you still defending the use of icons?

 

[Thekla]

Those scriptures can't be the bible since the bible tells us not to make any idols or any likeness of what is in heaven and so forth.

Except images were made by the command of God to Moses; except the Scriptures clearly state "eidolon/idols". Except the Scriptures clearly state not to make and worship them - clearly linking two statements to present a full concept.

 

[JesusFreak78]

So you don't have any photographs of family or friends then? No puppy calendars or the like right?

Because, as you just quoted,

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness ..."

Any means any. That includes photographs, paintings, little cat figurines or action figures or puppets.

-CryptoLutheran

You need to put this in context of what the ten commandments are about and making and idol or any likeness of what is in heaven and so forth doesn't have anything to do with putting up a picture of family or friends.

 

[Thekla]

You need to put this in context of what the ten commandments are about and making and idol or any likeness of what is in heaven and so forth doesn't have anything to do with putting up a picture of family or friends.

A picture is an image.
A picture of family members is a picture of what is created.

 

[simonthezealot]

Except images were made by the command of God to Moses; except the Scriptures clearly state "eidolon/idols". Except the Scriptures clearly state not to make and worship them - clearly linking two statements to present a full concept.

So you can make or worship just don't link the two together?

 

[Tzaousios]

What I mean is, it doesn't matter how many verses I post from the bible about not making images of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth because you will always find a way to excuse what you are doing.

Have you read up on the history of the Iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire, the writings of some of the Greek fathers on icons, and the decisions of the councils of Thekla's church to find out why she (and it) believes the way that she does?

Perhaps it would be better if you did that and not just post the usual prooftext from Exodus, assume it means what you say it does on the matter of icons, and claim some gnosticized understanding about religious iconography?

 

[Thekla]

So you can make or worship just don't link the two together?

Nope. We are not to worship anything created (even our own intellect or ideas). Worship is never given to creatures, only to the Uncreated (God).

The LXX clearly states not to make idols and worship them.

For those who interpret the Scripture here to mean literally images (not idols):
1. God broke His own commandment by commanding images to be made.
2. Any child's drawing of an object must be destroyed, nor should children be encouraged to draw "things".
3. All photographs are verboten as a clear abrogation of the commandment.
4. Only abstract art is permissible to be made or displayed.
5. As sound and words are part of the created (not uncreated), their representation in any form is deeply suspect.

 

[JesusFreak78]

A picture is an image.
A picture of family members is a picture of what is created.

Again, context. God is talking about not having any other gods than Him and you should not make any idols or any likeness of what is in heaven and so forth. When you put up a picture of Jesus, which won't justify what the bible tells us about Him, you have broken the second commandment.

 

[JesusFreak78]

1. God broke His own commandment by commanding images to be made.
2. Any child's drawing of an object must be destroyed, nor should children be encouraged to draw "things".
3. All photographs are verboten as a clear abrogation of the commandment.
4. Only abstract art is permissible to be made or displayed.

1. False since God cannot brake His own commandment.
2. Again, taken out of context.
3. See #2.
4. That depends on the context of the art.

 

[Thekla]

Again, context. God is talking about not having any other gods than Him and you should not make any idols or any likeness of what is in heaven and so forth. When you put up a picture of Jesus, which won't justify what the bible tells us about Him, you have broken the second commandment.

In this interpretation all photographs and non-abstract paintings are idols.

And per icons of Christ - how do they "not justify" what the Scriptures have said of Him ?

 

[simonthezealot]

In this interpretation all photographs and non-abstract paintings are idols.

And per icons of Christ - how do they "not justify" what the Scriptures have said of Him ?

They don't and can not display this....

15 iHe is the image of jthe invisible God, kthe firstborn of all creation. 16 For by6 him all things were created, lin heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether mthrones or ndominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created othrough him and for him. 17 And phe is before all things, and in him all things qhold together. 18 And rhe is the head of the body, the church. He is sthe beginning, tthe firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For uin him all the vfullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and wthrough him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, xmaking peace yby the blood of his cross.

 

[Thekla]

Consider; the term graphw means to engrave.
The Scriptures are graphi/engraved/written representations of words and sounds - both of which are created things.
Dump the Scriptures, too ?

 

[Dorothea]

Icons aren't idols because they aren't worshiped as false gods. They are aides in pointing us toward Christ, His Life and the Grace of God. They are not false gods. They are not worshiped. That's it.

 

[Thekla]

They don't and can not display this....

15 iHe is the image of jthe invisible God, kthe firstborn of all creation. 16 For by6 him all things were created, lin heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether mthrones or ndominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created othrough him and for him. 17 And phe is before all things, and in him all things qhold together. 18 And rhe is the head of the body, the church. He is sthe beginning, tthe firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For uin him all the vfullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and wthrough him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, xmaking peace yby the blood of his cross.

Neither can Scripture. It is the engraved (the term graphi) representation of created things (words and sounds) clustered into phrases that describe the things of God.

Do you think the Scripture can perfectly describe the Uncreated ?

 

[JesusFreak78]

In this interpretation all photographs and non-abstract paintings are idols.

And per icons of Christ - how do they "not justify" what the Scriptures have said of Him ?

Since you think it does, why don't you start with telling me how any icons can justify Christ as described in Colossians 2:9 or Colossians 1:15-20?

 

[Thekla]

1. False since God cannot brake His own commandment.

How so ?

2. Again, taken out of context.

You claim that the commandment is against making images (pictures) of created things; when a child draws a bird, for example, he has broken the commandment per your interpretation.

3. See #2.

See response above; your application of your own standard is inconsistent.

4. That depends on the context of the art.

Representation of created things is representation of created things, no ?
And that includes photographs or paintings of family members.

 

[Thekla]

Since you think it does, why don't you start with telling me how any icons can justify Christ as described in Colossians 2:9 or Colossians 1:15-20?

Can you tell me how engraved words - the representation of created words - can justify what is written in these verses ? Do these verses perfectly and completely represent what they describe ? Can the created words of Scripture sufficiently describe the Uncreated God ?

 

[Tzaousios]

Since you think it does, why don't you start with telling me how any icons can justify Christ as described in Colossians 2:9 or Colossians 1:15-20?

Can you answer my question to you on the previous page?