Icons...

[Thekla]

No, I don't think words can perfectly describe things of God, but words are still the form God has decided to reveal Himself to us.

Part of the truth is not the whole Truth; throughout the OT it was not only by words that God revealed Himself to humans -
far from it !

With the coming of Christ, God revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

Christ did not only talk - in fact, His actions (in part described in the NT) are also His revelation, His teaching.

I agree with you. Also some translations are using graven images. From what I can see from the Greek, it seems like it says "carving or any representation".

It uses the term "eidolon", idol.

The central issue is what is being worshiped.

I know that is what you're saying, but it looks like you do it to me.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24

 

[JesusFreak78]

Part of the truth is not the whole Truth; throughout the OT it was not only by words that God revealed Himself to humans -
far from it !

I didn't say it was part of the truth. What God has said about Himself is the whole truth, thought it doesn't mean He has revealed everything about Himself.

With the coming of Christ, God revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

I agree with this.

Christ did not only talk - in fact, His actions (in part described in the NT) are also His revelation, His teaching.

I agree with this too.

It uses the term "eidolon", idol.

The central issue is what is being worshiped.

I'm sorry, I wrote Greek when I meant Hebrew. I don't know exactly what the translation is in Greek, so I will have to take your word for it.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24

I can't judge the intention of your heart, but I can judge according to your actions.

 

[Thekla]

I didn't say it was part of the truth. What God has said about Himself is the whole truth, thought it doesn't mean He has revealed everything about Himself.

The "whole truth" is Jesus Christ Who is "the Truth".

The Scriptures are a description of the revelation, but the revelation is Jesus Christ - Him, not a description of Him.

I'm sorry, I wrote Greek when I meant Hebrew. I don't know exactly what the translation is in Greek, so I will have to take your word for it.

no problem

I can't judge the intention of your heart, but I can judge according to your actions.

We were warned against judging by appearance ...
Even actions can be grossly misunderstood - Christ was called illiterate and the equivalent of a drunkard.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Not one image is appearing in my mind when I'm praying to God. Also, my mind it not dark void. It's filled with what I'm praying about and how I can honor God with my prayer.

That's hard for me to understand. Even as a young child, when I didn't really grasp faith, I would always imagine Jesus suffering on the cross.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's hard for me to understand. Even as a young child, when I didn't really grasp faith, I would always imagine Jesus suffering on the cross.

Our dear bother Paul never got to witness that event, but then again, maybe he did

NKJV) 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

[narnia59]

Originally Posted by Thekla

We do not worship icons, nor do we worship the words in the Bible, nor the Bible.
​

I know that is what you're saying, but it looks like you do it to me.

Well, there you have it!

Frankly when I visit some churches and there's a band up on a 'stage', and people are jumping around and waving their arms like they're at a rock concert, it looks to me like they're idolizing the band.

But I believe them when they say they're not. Perhaps you should place a higher precedence on what people tell you about themselves than what you think you know.

 

[Kepha]

Not one image is appearing in my mind when I'm praying to God. Also, my mind it not dark void. It's filled with what I'm praying about and how I can honor God with my prayer.

I find it very hard to even comprehend an individual who has never once, Prayed to Jesus or God while thinking of an image associated with Him. Like when pondering on Jesus being Crucified for your sins, there's nothing at all, not a shape or a form to even see Him doing this for you. I'd love to hook you up to a machine that could monitor your heart or blood pressure when you view the image of a Cross or a Bible or a stained glass window in any Church and see if it jump just a little.

And would you condemn any child from thinking of Jesus in a 'worship' kind of way while reading a children's book with images of Christ. Do you condemn those sorts of books and preach to your protestant brethren to not use them if you should ever come across Christians that do?

It wasn't her touching Jesus' robe that healed her, but it was her faith in Jesus ability to heal her. She touching the robe was the action of her faith.

Of course it's their faith just like it's a Catholic's faith who uses relics to heal themselves of sicknesses for example. That's why I mentioned the part where He said "your faith has healed you". To make sure you didn't miss it.

But notice two things.

1) She was never healed before she touched His Cloak implying that Her faith believing she would be healed, increased 'ONLY' the minute she touched a man made material that Christ was using to cover Himself and was never condemned for doing so.

2) Christ asked "Who touched Me" and never asked "Who touched my Garment" again revealing that He understands the human capacity to use physical things to assist in faith and worship to God where touching them, is like connecting to God Himself without the need to worship the material itself. It's all about assisting one with their faith. If you should ever understand this on the deepest level, then you will understand what's going on in a Catholic's heart when kneeling and praying before a Statue or even lighting candles in a Church.

 

[Kepha]

I'd also love to know how many anti-icon Christians watched 'Passion of the Christ" and wept while looking at the image of a mere man who pretended to be Jesus. Shame on you all for having any emotional connection to Christ while viewing these fake, unGodly, unChristian images on a screen.

 

[Fotina]

The True Image
What we see in the mirror can either kill or cure as. Let me explain. Do you know the story of the Greek god Narcissus? He was so beautiful and arrogant that the god of judgement, Nemesis led him to a pool where he fell in love with his own reflection in the still waters. There he died locked into the image by his own passions. In some versions of the story he committed suicide.
The deadly aspect of the narcissistic image is to be found in human art and literature in many different cultures across centuries if not millennia. Most notably in recent times we have Oscar Wilde’s only published novel: - “The Picture of Dorian Gray.” Here, the antihero sells his soul to the devil to remain forever young while his painted image ages and corrupts before his very eyes, as in fact he then does morally through a life of pleasure seeking and debauchery. This infatuation with oneself can lead to all sorts of dangerous psychological disorders. There is for example the well-known polar opposite of narcissism that leads to such eating disorders as anorexia and bulimia. Here, the sufferer, rather than falling in love with his or her own image, despises it because it does not conform to a supposed ideal. The unrealistic body images this society presses upon our consciousness undoubtedly contribute to this self-hatred. It is as if a whole culture has lost itself in a fairground of distorting mirrors, some images flattering, some grotesque. With these temptations in mind little wonder that a monk is not allowed to have a mirror in his cell! How then can we see ourselves as we truly are and not just at the fleshly level?
Today we celebrate the Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council who in 787 A.D. ordered that the holy icons representing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, his Blessed Mother and the saints should continue to be venerated in all the churches as they had been from the beginning. This Council had been convened to settle once and for all the dispute with the iconoclasts who had sought to destroy or remove the holy images from Christian places of worship. The Council fathers made it clear that this was not an order in violation of the second commandment but rather a recognition that the Incarnation of Christ in the flesh had sanctified humanity and indeed the whole Cosmos. The physical image now could and should represent the glory of God in his Son and in all the saints. Here in the icon we have the true and undistorted image of our humanity, first and foremost in Christ who, as St Paul teaches, is the icon or “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). This is true, however, not only for our Lord but also for each one of us whose likeness to this Christ-Image is being restored by the Holy Spirit IF we work with God to that end. If we want to know what our humanity is like and can truly become we need to look at that perfect Undistorted Image which is Christ. Looking at him we shall not descend into destructive narcissism but rather ascend, utterly transformed and beautified by the Holy Spirit to the Father. The way to achieving this is repentance, the narrow way of the cross that leads to the fullness of His Risen Life, the Way of Love. As St. Paul says in his first letter to the Church at Corinth, Chapter 13, verse 12: “For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
Contemplation of Christ in our humanity, however, is not the whole story. Narcissism is evil because it directs attention to oneself. True worship of the Undistorted Image directs our attention to others. As surely as we venerate the images of God in our churches so must we also venerate the images of God in our brothers and sisters; indeed in ALL humans who, as Genesis insists, are made “in the image and likeness of God.” (Genesis 1:26). Here in others we serve Christ. Here we find ourselves and everyone beautified through sacrificial self-giving love. The Russian novelist and playwright Ivan Turgenev wrote of this in his prose poem: “Christ.” I never cease to recite this because for me it expresses the essence of Orthodoxy’s veneration of the image of God in our shared humanity.
CHRIST by Ivan Turgenev (December 1878)
I saw myself, in dream, a youth, almost a boy, in a low-pitched wooden church. The slim wax candles gleamed, spots of red, before the old pictures of the saints.
A ring of coloured light encircled each tiny flame. Dark and dim it was in the church…. But there stood before me many people. All fair-haired, peasant heads. From time to time they began swaying, falling, rising again, like the ripe ears of wheat, when the wind of summer passes in slow undulation over them.
All at once some man came up from behind and stood beside me.
I did not turn towards him; but at once I felt that this man was Christ.
Emotion, curiosity, awe overmastered me suddenly. I made an effort ... and looked at my neighbour.
A face like every one’s, a face like all men’s faces. The eyes looked a little upwards, quietly and intently. The lips closed, but not compressed; the upper lip, as it were, resting on the lower; a small beard parted in two. The hands folded and still. And the clothes on him like every one’s.
‘What sort of Christ is this?’ I thought. ‘Such an ordinary, ordinary man! It cannot be!’
I turned away. But I had hardly turned my eyes away from this ordinary man when I felt again that it really was none other than Christ standing beside me.
Again I made an effort over myself…. And again the same face, like all men’s faces, the same everyday though unknown features.
And suddenly my heart sank, and I came to myself. Only then I realised that just such a face—a face like all men’s faces—is the face of Christ.


A Voice From The Isles - Ancient Faith Radio

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The True Image
And suddenly my heart sank, and I came to myself. Only then I realised that just such a face—a face like all men’s faces—is the face of Christ.

A Voice From The Isles - Ancient Faith Radio

Young) 2 Corinthians 4:6 because [it is] God who said, 'out of darkness light [is] to shine, who did shine in our hearts',
for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks "be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting upon the Throne and from the wrath of the Lamb
[Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

 

[Fotina]

V. Lossky and St. Paul on the Theology of the Image

By fatherstephen

If man is logikos…if he is “in the image” of the Logos, everything which touches the destiny of man – grace, sin, redemption by the Word made man – must also be related to the theology of the image. And we may say the same of the Church, the sacraments, sanctification, and the end of all things. There is no branch of theological teaching which can be entirely isolated from the problem of the image without danger of severing it from the living stock of Christian tradition. We may say that for a theologian of the catholic tradition in the East and in the West, for one who is true to the mainline of patristic thought, the theme of the image (in its twofold acceptance – the image as the principle of god’s self-manifestation and the image as the foundation of a particular relationship of man to God) must belong to the essence of Christianity.

Through the Incarnation, which is the fundamental dogmatic fact of Christianity, “image” and “theology” are linked so closely together that the expression “theology of the image” might become almost a tautology – which it is, if one chooses to regard theology as a knowledge of God in His Logos, who is the consubstantial Image of the Father.​

- Vladimir Lossky​

+++​

For those who have never been exposed to the “theology of the image” (particularly as it is found in Eastern Orthodox thought), Lossky’s comments may seem strange. However a very short collection of New Testament passages immediately elevate his thoughts to a place of serious consideration. These passages, like many others in the New Testament, are often overlooked or not given careful examination since they fail to fit into many of the interpretive schemes used by many non-Orthodox. A frequent question for me when I am reading St. Paul is, “Where did he get that?” Simple statements by the great Apostle often exhibit a deeply mature theology and reflection – one that cannot be accounted for simply by natural development over time. Most especially, his thought evidences a radically Christocentric reading of the Old Testament – one which echoes Christ’s own description, “these are they which testify of me” (John 5:30 ).​

Image in St. Paul’s Letters​

Four quotes:​

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren (Romans 8:29).​

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven (1 Corinthians 15:49).​

He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation (Colossians 1:15).​

…[for we] have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator (Colossians 3:10).​

First and foremost is St. Paul’s understanding that Christ is the “image of the invisible God.” Where does he get this? The most obvious candidate is a Christocentric reading of the opening chapter of Genesis. The Old Testament itself does not make much of the teaching in Genesis that “man is made in the image of God.” It does not carry through as an important theological theme (nor does the fall of Adam and Eve). But for St. Paul (and for the early Church), the opening chapters of Genesis take on a central importance for Christian thought. The entire creation narrative takes on new meaning when read as a reference to Christ.​

We can hear this in the opening words of St. John’s gospel: “In the beginning was the Word…” The echo of the opening words of Genesis are not accidental – it is a “re-writing” of Genesis – a “re-telling” of the creation story with the Logos of God at its center. Of this Logos John says:​

And the Word [Logos] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth (John 1:14).
​

The importance of this taking flesh is tied with the Logos role as image of God. “We beheld his glory,” John says. This is the image which we can see. We continues to carry the import of this forward:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

For St. Paul, Adam’s creation in the “image and likeness” of God is fulfilled in Christ. “The first man [Adam] is of the earth (in Hebrew, “of the earth” would be Adamah). “The second man [Christ] is of heaven” (1 Corinthians 15:47 ). It is this re-reading of Genesis that allows St. Paul to say that “just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.” The Genesis story of Adam is a prefiguring of Christ – in St. Paul the final meaning of Genesis is to be found in its fulfillment in Christ. The Second Adam (one of Paul’s names for Christ) is the true image and likeness of the Father – an image and likeness never fulfilled by the First Adam. Salvation in Christ is a “new creation” for St. Paul – in it, those who are saved are re-created and “conformed to the image” of Christ. Salvation as “conformity to the image” is clearly an important understanding for St. Paul – but sadly neglected by many Christians.​

In place of the theology of the image, a theology of sin-debt-payment-forgiveness has come to dominate the thought of many. The reading of the opening chapters of Genesis has become focused almost entirely on the fall and the guilt engendered by Adam for all mankind – the first chapter even more sadly relegated to debates about creation and evolution.​

Indeed, the 5th chapter of Romans, in which St. Paul speaks of the sin of Adam, contrasted with the righteousness of Christ, can also be read through the “theology of the image” (which makes a very interesting way of approaching the question of justification). But it is not noticed by most that St. Paul’s treatment in the 5th chapter brings him to his summary of Baptismal experience (we should always remember that “chapters” and “verses” are a late medieval invention) in which the theology of the image dominates. There St. Paul will say, ”For if we have been planted together in the likeness (homoioma) of his death, we shall be also in the likenessof his resurrection.” Likeness, like image is drawn from Genesis 1:26. There is a new creation in Baptism and it is a creation “in the likeness of the resurrection.” Justification is renewal according to the true image of God.​

Christ is the true image of the invisible God – the God/Man who makes visible and tangible to us the God Whom we could not otherwise know. He is the Second Adam, the true image to which we shall be conformed. Apart from Christ, man lives in the image of the man of earth, the First Adam, and fails to live according to the likeness of God. In Christ, God makes us to become what we were always intended to become – the image and likeness of God.​

It is this “theology of the image” that lies behind the Orthodox veneration of icons – however foreign that veneration may seem to many other Christians. But it is no more foreign than the very theology of the image has become in the modern reading of Scripture. “Icons do with color what Scripture does with words,” is the definitive teaching of the 7th Ecumenical Council. They also point us towards rightly reading what Scripture does with those words.

​

V. Lossky and St. Paul on the Theology of the Image « Glory to God for All Things

 

[Fotina]

Did you know this last Sunday we just celebrated this?

Commemoration of the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council

Troparion - Tone 8

Most glorious are You, O Christ our God!
You have established the Holy Fathers as lights on the earth!
Through them you have guided us to the true faith!
O greatly Compassionate One, glory to You!

Kontakion - Tone 6

The Son who shone forth from the Father
Was ineffably born, two-fold in nature, of a woman.
Having beheld Him, we do not deny the image of His form,
But depict it piously and revere it faithfully.
Thus, keeping the True Faith,
The Church venerates the icon of Christ Incarnate.

Commemoration of the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council

Commemorated on October 16

Today the Church remembers the 350 holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council under the holy Patriarch Tarasius (February 25).

The Synod of 787, the second to meet at Nicea, refuted the Iconoclast heresy during the reign of Empress Irene and her son Constantine Porphyrogenitos.

The Council decreed that the veneration of icons was not idolatry (Exodus 20:4-5), because the honor shown to them is not directed to the wood or paint, but passes to the prototype (the person depicted). It also upheld the possibility of depicting Christ, Who became man and took flesh at His Incarnation. The Father, on the other hand, cannot be represented in His eternal nature, because "no man has seen God at any time" (John 1:18).

 

[JesusFreak78]

The "whole truth" is Jesus Christ Who is "the Truth".

The Scriptures are a description of the revelation, but the revelation is Jesus Christ - Him, not a description of Him.

I know Jesus Christ is the truth and we can also read about it in John 14:6.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Well, there you have it!

Frankly when I visit some churches and there's a band up on a 'stage', and people are jumping around and waving their arms like they're at a rock concert, it looks to me like they're idolizing the band.

But I believe them when they say they're not. Perhaps you should place a higher precedence on what people tell you about themselves than what you think you know.

I don't approve of churches of turns into a rock concert and neither do I like pastors who is more interested in pleasing people and making them feel good instead of preaching the truth of God's Word.

 

[Thekla]

....what was that verse.... oh yea; ...'be no respecter of persons...'

... a vernacular phrase referring to the social standing.
Spiritual maturity (being Christ filled) is not the same as social standing. (The present understanding of "person" is not the same as the understanding 2,000 years ago.)

Why would one who follows God's teachings be respectful towards one who does not or towards the beliefs of one who does not? Is that not honoring /respecting those false (un) beliefs, or at the least stating that one is to be tolerant of them? And if that is so; how does one justify stating that this or that is evil or contrary to God's way? God teaches that his people fall due to their inability to judge between that which is truth and that which is not; in regard to His teachings, laws, or anything else.

Everyone is created in the image of God; to treat another person with respect is to acknowledge the image of God in them.

I'm not sure how you equate respect with honoring false belief.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying one should not treat those who do not believe in God's teachings, or follow them, cordially, I am however saying that respect of such is not in God's teachings.

I'm not sure what in my post you are referring to ...

Christ didn't show respect nor honor towards the Samarian woman's beliefs, though he DID treat her cordially;... he stated '...you know not what you worship'.

Okay, but again I'm not sure what you mean re: my post.

According to what you are saying; He should have said; ...' well, its o.k. for you to believe and worship in the ways that you do, your intentions are good and towards God so its fine by me...' .

Huh ?

But THAT is NOT what He said is it? So, whom does one whom seeks to walk in Christ's footsteps follow, the words of a man...or the words of Christ?

I'm really lost ... maybe you weren't responding to my post ?

 

[JesusFreak78]

I find it very hard to even comprehend an individual who has never once, Prayed to Jesus or God while thinking of an image associated with Him. Like when pondering on Jesus being Crucified for your sins, there's nothing at all, not a shape or a form to even see Him doing this for you. I'd love to hook you up to a machine that could monitor your heart or blood pressure when you view the image of a Cross or a Bible or a stained glass window in any Church and see if it jump just a little.

I find it scary to even think about I should imagine Christ in my mind since I would never be able to form a correct picture and by doing so I would brake the second commandment.

When I walk into a church who is full of icons and pictures of Jesus, my heart turns heavy and sad.

And would you condemn any child from thinking of Jesus in a 'worship' kind of way while reading a children's book with images of Christ. Do you condemn those sorts of books and preach to your protestant brethren to not use them if you should ever come across Christians that do?

I don't like children's book or children's bible since I think those pictures are given the wrong pictures when it comes to several things.

Of course it's their faith just like it's a Catholic's faith who uses relics to heal themselves of sicknesses for example. That's why I mentioned the part where He said "your faith has healed you". To make sure you didn't miss it.

What is a relic?

But notice two things.

1) She was never healed before she touched His Cloak implying that Her faith believing she would be healed, increased 'ONLY' the minute she touched a man made material that Christ was using to cover Himself and was never condemned for doing so.

2) Christ asked "Who touched Me" and never asked "Who touched my Garment" again revealing that He understands the human capacity to use physical things to assist in faith and worship to God where touching them, is like connecting to God Himself without the need to worship the material itself. It's all about assisting one with their faith. If you should ever understand this on the deepest level, then you will understand what's going on in a Catholic's heart when kneeling and praying before a Statue or even lighting candles in a Church.

Why do you insist on focusing on everything else than Christ? You need only Christ to worship him and nothing else.

 

[Thekla]

How can worship Christ and not acknowledge His effect on the world, on others ?

 

[JesusFreak78]

How can worship Christ and not acknowledge His effect on the world, on others ?

Who are you referring to? I have never said Christ doesn't have an effect on the world or on others.

 

[Thekla]

Who are you referring to? I have never said Christ doesn't have an effect on the world or on others.

No, I didn't make a claim about you.

But why is it thought to be wrong to recognize Christ's effect on the world and others ?

 

[JesusFreak78]

No, I didn't make a claim about you.

But why is it thought to be wrong to recognize Christ's effect on the world and others ?

Who is saying this is wrong?