Icons...

[JesusFreak78]

As well the epic failure of the inability to match what the Colossian description describes.
That was a point I made earlier how can art ever attempt to depict His Godliness, His manhood yes His divinity, never.

Exactly.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Attractiveness is a matter of taste.

But icons do not aim to depict only the physical per se, but the spiritual, or the spiritualized physical. Thus they are highly stylized (note the features, the elongation, the symbolic use of color), to point the viewer towards the spiritual reality of what is depicted over the ephemeral (physical) existence.

It doesn't matter if the main point of the icon isn't to show the physical. It still does and in every case you will make a wrong picture of God.

 

[Tzaousios]

It doesn't matter if the main point of the icon isn't to show the physical. It still does and in every case you will make a wrong picture of God.

In which icons is there an actual depiction of God the Father except in representation in the Trinity? As far as I know, in terms of canonical icons, God the Father is not depicted in His essence as He really is.

 

[MKJ]

There is not much that survives from the earliest centuries - not even of the Scriptures (not to mention the originals).

Archeological attestation of anything from that era is scarce; iirc some of the earliest is from the catacombs, and from Dura Europa, and from a more recently discovered location (in a prison yard, in Israel iirc).

Well, to get a bit earlier than I believe was suggeted by some posts, what about the Catacomb of Priscilla? It's late second century.

How early I wonder would we have to go to find something that "counts".

 

[Thekla]

It doesn't matter if the main point of the icon isn't to show the physical. It still does and in every case you will make a wrong picture of God.

The Gospels each show different but overlapping depictions of Christ, yet each one is correct.

In the EO, we understand that nothing can accurately depict God, the uncreated. Words are part of creation, they are not God and will always fall short. Words, like Icons, can point, can give information, can teach, but all these are inadequate, for "For now we see in a mirror dimly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor. 13:12)

We cannot make a picture of God, nor can we describe God in words, yet we have the Scriptures.

 

[Thekla]

Well, to get a bit earlier than I believe was suggeted by some posts, what about the Catacomb of Priscilla? It's late second century.

How early I wonder would we have to go to find something that "counts".

This attestation (Catacomb of Priscilla) predates most of the evidence we have of the NT Scriptures.

I would think that evidence that competes with evidence for the NT should be acceptable

 

[cobweb]

Well, to get a bit earlier than I believe was suggeted by some posts, what about the Catacomb of Priscilla? It's late second century.

How early I wonder would we have to go to find something that "counts".

From the debates that we have had in this forum before I would guess that it would probably have to date to the mid first century. I've been told here that the Didache is too late.

 

[Thekla]

From the debates that we have had in this forum before I would guess that it would probably have to date to the mid first century. I've been told here that the Didache is too late.

Yet no one applies that standard to the NT ... which would equate with a double standard.

 

[Fotina]

There is a feast for St Luke

A day late, here's his story and icons too.

Apostle and Evangelist Luke, the first iconographer


October 18


Luke the Evangelist

Reading:

This Apostle was an Antiochean, a physician by trade, and a disciple and companion of Paul. He wrote his Gospel in Greek after Matthew and Mark, after which he wrote the Acts of the Apostles, and dedicated both works to Theophilus, who, according to some, was Governor of Achaia. He lived some eighty-six years and died in Achaia, perhaps in Patras, the capital of this district. His emblem is the calf, the third symbolical beast mentioned by Ezekiel (1:10), which is a symbol of Christ's sacrificial and priestly office, as Saint Irenaeus says.

Apolytikion in the Third Tone

O Holy Apostle and Evangelist Luke, intercede with the merciful God that He grant unto our souls forgiveness of offences.

Kontakion in the Fourth Tone

As a disciple of the Word of God, with Paul you illuminated all the earth and dispelled the gloom in writing Christ's divine Gospel.

Online Chapel — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Commemorated on October 18

Apostle and Evangelist Luke

Troparion - Tone 5

Let us praise with sacred songs the holy Apostle Luke,
the recorder of the joyous Gospel of Christ
and the scribe of the Acts of the Apostles,
for his writings are a testimony of the Church of Christ:
He is the physician of human weaknesses and infirmities.
He heals the wounds of our souls,
and constantly intercedes for our salvation!

Kontakion - Tone 2

Let us praise the godly Luke:
he is the true preacher of piety,
the orator of ineffable mysteries
and the star of the Church;
for the Word, Who alone knows the hearts of men,
chose him, together with wise Paul, to be a teacher of the gentiles!

http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?FSID=102993

 

[Philothei]

Also, the Israelites did not bow down to the ark or to the statues of the cherubim, or serve them. To compare what God had set in place, to that of religious activity is folly.

This subject of the veneration of the Torah has been going around a lot. LOL...
Here is is for the sake of discussion :

In the Throes of Grief, IDF Unit Finds Solace - Features - News - Chabad Lubavitch World Headquarters


I guess to show respect of affection is looked as worshiping...

Also the kissing of the wailing wall :

I guess then this is NOT worshiping... but if kissing is ...then ah well I give up you decide y'all... Veneration has nothing to do with worshiping the actual thing for one thing. I venerate the Gospel when it comes out of the altar because it is the word of God and a sacred writing I do not "worship" it as it is NOT God itself; But its association makes it venerable.

 

[JesusFreak78]

In which icons is there an actual depiction of God the Father except in representation in the Trinity? As far as I know, in terms of canonical icons, God the Father is not depicted in His essence as He really is.

Who said I was talking about God the Father? If you have read my other posts you will see I have been talking about Jesus Christ, so when I wrote God in the last one I thought it would be obvious I was talking about God the Son.

 

[Thekla]

Who said I was talking about God the Father? If you have read my other posts you will see I have been talking about Jesus Christ, so when I wrote God in the last one I thought it would be obvious I was talking about God the Son.

Are you also opposed to writings about God ?

 

[JesusFreak78]

Are you also opposed to writings about God ?

If you are talking about the bible, God's inspired word, no, I'm not since that is God's revelation to us from Him.

If you're talking about other books written about God, I'm not opposed to that as long as they write about Him in an honorable way that gives God the respect He deserves.

Also God didn't say "do not write", but He did say in His 2nd commandment not to make any graven images.

 

[narnia59]

If you are talking about the bible, God's inspired word, no, I'm not since that is God's revelation to us from Him.

If you're talking about other books written about God, I'm not opposed to that as long as they write about Him in an honorable way that gives God the respect He deserves.

Also God didn't say "do not write", but He did say in His 2nd commandment not to make any graven images.

An icon isn't a graven image.

 

[Thekla]

If you are talking about the bible, God's inspired word, no, I'm not since that is God's revelation to us from Him.

If you're talking about other books written about God, I'm not opposed to that as long as they write about Him in an honorable way that gives God the respect He deserves.

Also God didn't say "do not write", but He did say in His 2nd commandment not to make any graven images.

Do you think that words can perfectly describe the things of God ?

The second commandment in the LXX OT reads "idol" (not graven image). As Paul points out, idols are not only sculptures; he mentions for example iirc that coveting is idolatry. The worshiped sculptures are evidence of the sin, but not the only way for the sin to occur. The core of the commandment is worshiping creation instead of the Creator.

We do not worship icons, nor do we worship the words in the Bible, nor the Bible.

 

[Philothei]

Who said I was talking about God the Father? If you have read my other posts you will see I have been talking about Jesus Christ, so when I wrote God in the last one I thought it would be obvious I was talking about God the Son.

So if they had video cameras and photos in these days...and you could have the actual pic of the God-man and you venerated his pic you would still think that it would not be right? Also how is it right then to have Jews venerating the Torah?

 

[Kepha]

I'm curious and would like to ask all the anti-icon Christians, when each and everytime they pray, their minds are all a dark void? Are there absolutely zero images coming into your thoughts to assist you in your worship to God? Now be completely honest here in your answers. Does not one image of Jesus as we see Him today, even appear in your minds? And if so, do you immediately cast it out as it represents an erroneous style of worship?

Also, would you likewise condemn the woman for using Jesus cloak as a veneration tool where even Christ Himself felt His power absorbed through this earthly material? And remember, Christ was almost getting crushed by the crowd so alot of folks were touching Him. But she touched the end of His cloak, not out of worship, but connecting it with Him who She truly worshiped and believed would heal her as even Christ said, your faith has healed you leaving us no doubt.

Luke 8:42-48

As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him. [43] And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years, but no one could heal her. [44] She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped.
[45] "Who touched me?" Jesus asked.
When they all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you."
[46] But Jesus said, "Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me."
[47] Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. [48] Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace."

 

[JesusFreak78]

Do you think that words can perfectly describe the things of God ?

No, I don't think words can perfectly describe things of God, but words are still the form God has decided to reveal Himself to us.

The second commandment in the LXX OT reads "idol" (not graven image). As Paul points out, idols are not only sculptures; he mentions for example iirc that coveting is idolatry. The worshiped sculptures are evidence of the sin, but not the only way for the sin to occur. The core of the commandment is worshiping creation instead of the Creator.

I agree with you. Also some translations are using graven images. From what I can see from the Greek, it seems like it says "carving or any representation".

We do not worship icons, nor do we worship the words in the Bible, nor the Bible.

I know that is what you're saying, but it looks like you do it to me.

 

[JesusFreak78]

So if they had video cameras and photos in these days...and you could have the actual pic of the God-man and you venerated his pic you would still think that it would not be right?

They didn't have any cameras or photos back then, so I don't think it's any point in speculating in it.

Also how is it right then to have Jews venerating the Torah?

I don't think it's right.

 

[JesusFreak78]

I'm curious and would like to ask all the anti-icon Christians, when each and everytime they pray, their minds are all a dark void? Are there absolutely zero images coming into your thoughts to assist you in your worship to God? Now be completely honest here in your answers. Does not one image of Jesus as we see Him today, even appear in your minds? And if so, do you immediately cast it out as it represents an erroneous style of worship?

Not one image is appearing in my mind when I'm praying to God. Also, my mind it not dark void. It's filled with what I'm praying about and how I can honor God with my prayer.

Also, would you likewise condemn the woman for using Jesus cloak as a veneration tool where even Christ Himself felt His power absorbed through this earthly material? And remember, Christ was almost getting crushed by the crowd so alot of folks were touching Him. But she touched the end of His cloak, not out of worship, but connecting it with Him who She truly worshiped and believed would heal her as even Christ said, your faith has healed you leaving us no doubt.

Luke 8:42-48

As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him. [43] And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years, but no one could heal her. [44] She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped.
[45] "Who touched me?" Jesus asked.
When they all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you."
[46] But Jesus said, "Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me."
[47] Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. [48] Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace."

It wasn't her touching Jesus' robe that healed her, but it was her faith in Jesus ability to heal her. She touching the robe was the action of her faith.