IceDragon Comment on Reinventing the Adventist Wheel.

[Avonia]

we have painted ourselves into a corner

Hi Mocherie!

This is true. In a lot of ways. This is why I posted the question about the church lasting 1,000 years. We are using resources to prepare for the end of the world instead of healing the world.

 

[tall73]

I can't say I disagree with him on his research but the question is how is it possible for him to re- decide a position yet it is impossible for the SDA denomination to change their position?

Perhaps the bigger question is why Ice should spend a lifetime of effort trying to change a church when he could just go to another that is closer to what he believes and be active in the mission for Christ?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

The problem arises because we have placed EGW as one of the foundations of our belief rather than Jesus Christ alone so we have painted ourselves into a corner and trapped ourselves into the periods 1844-1910.

Of course this does all come down to EGW. It was her statement that the sanctuary doctrine is the foundation of our church. So it is understandable the Paulson agrees. But EGW is more then any other time I know of becoming less important to more Adventists. In my Sabbath School class the majority of people say you have to take some of what she says and discard other parts. That is a huge change from what I have found in previous Sabbath School classes. Yes there are still the ultra traditional classes which are like visiting the cemetery and they probably still revere EGW in all she says, so I am only seeing a portion of the changes in the church.

But technology has changed things and people cannot hide the problems near as easily as they once did and post modernism tends to ask the questions and not simply accept previous answers. Those are all parts of the changing church.

In the quotes by Armstrong it is funny because you can find the same thing in EGW's statements. It all comes down to the authority one places in a person over whether they claim that authority or not. Nobody gets authority because they claim to have it!

What is also interesting is that so many TSDA do seem to gloat over people who leave Adventism ("we knew they would leave cause they lost the truth") but on the other side should we in Adventism not be concerned with Adventists. I don't know that it is any better to leave the church and ignore the problems. It may suggest the same kind of thing as gloating when people leave Adventism that is it does not really care for the people involved. It just assumes it is some kind of religio-sociological mind game.

 

[tall73]

I don't know that it is any better to leave the church and ignore the problems. It may suggest the same kind of thing as gloating when people leave Adventism that is it does not really care for the people involved. It just assumes it is some kind of religio-sociological mind game.

Leaving is caring about the people involved. Because all of those who know you ask you why you left and you have an opportunity to share your reasons.

 

[tall73]

Already according to people like Alden Thompson the majority of college age Adventists in our schools do not know what EGW says and do not care a whole lot about what she says.

Is this better theology or just apathy?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Perhaps the bigger question is why Ice should spend a lifetime of effort trying to change a church when he could just go to another that is closer to what he believes and be active in the mission for Christ?

Well I was sick this weekend so since I did not go to Sabbath School I spend my time looking at the beliefs of local churches. I found one that may not be too bad. But so many will start with the belief in an inerrant infallible Bible, eternal torment in hell. Some included statements to the effect that the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is literal, and one even posted that one had to obey all the commandments including the Sabbath by not working and the sabbath is Sunday. One asserted that baptism by the Holy Spirit is essential and that it is evidenced by speaking in tongues like the apostles did at Pentecost in Acts.

Which of course not the kind of speaking in tongues that any of the Charismatics use. Yet for some reason that is what they wrote as their beliefs. And of course a few of them dealt with only acceptance of penal/substitutionary atonement.

So maybe Ice can find a group that agrees more with him I have little chance of finding that, the best I can find is a church that has a vaguer belief system. It appears to me that Christianity is in just as much trouble as is Adventism. They are all struggling with building on tradition verses building upon God given reasoning. At least here in the Adventist church I know of people who are trying to reason through their religion, some are still tethered to EGW (such as Jonathan Gallagher and Graham Maxwell) but at least they realize that they don't have to accept everything she says.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Is this better theology or just apathy?

Neither it means that the indoctrination of SDA schools is not working which means that people will have to examine EGW in College or after which means they are far less likely to be pulled into to the fundamentalism of EGW.

 

[NightEternal]

You have to take into account the structure of church government. WCG's church government was strictly top down. One man, the Pastor General, had the power to single handedly re-write church doctrine. I don't believe the president of the SDA General Conference has that kind of power.

Another major difference is that WGC did not exalt Mr. Armstrong to prophet staus as the SDA's do with EGW.


"Emphatically I am NOT a prophet, in the sense of one to whom God speaks directly, revealing personally a future event to happen or new truth, or new or special instruction from God--separate from, and apart from what is contained in the Bible. And I never have claimed to be" (Tomorrow's World, June 1972).

“Don’t believe me – BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE – BELIEVE GOD!”
Herbert W. Armstrong, Plain Truth magazine, Sept. 1963, Personal pg.1

Change will not come so easily with the SDA's.

Here is an example of how the Trad mindset and vicous intolerance deals with the topic of WWCG and our attempts at SDA reform :

Non-traditionalists - start your own offshoots


Non-traditionalists, the traditionalists are not going to allow you to pull a Joseph Tkatch-style takeover as done in the Worldwide Church of God. At least not without a resistance.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34978601&postcount=1

If I found myself in a denomination that doesn't teach the truth, I'd leave it for one that did. It's not like anyone is forcing people to stay in the denomination.

What Joseph Tkatch did in the Worldwide Church of God was no less than theft. Just think of how many people supported the work of Herbert W. Armstrong with finances, faithful works, and prayers only to have it all (buildings, educational facilities, media ministries, the denomination itself...) stolen away for a different belief and message. The truth is... there is no purpose for the Worldwide Church of God to exist today. It is no different from churches which pre-date it.

If you take away 1844, the investigative judgment, and the spirit of prophecy, there is no need for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Other churches would do. There are multitudes of sabbath-keeping groups out there.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34980979&postcount=6

Is that what you 1844, IJ, EGW rejectors want to do to real SDA's?

I say this in love - It's time for some to take a little hike over to the Seventh Day Baptist Church, the Church of God 7th Day, the Sunday-keeping Church of your choice. Or you could start your own little offshoots. I guarantee they will remain small and insignificant, just as every other EGW-rejecting "Adventist" group before you.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=35001155&postcount=20

Nice, huh?

The ever-popular tactic of appealing to Joe Crews (please):

Tall--ever read the book "Creeping Compromise"? If not--you should because that's what the 'offshoots' have done! Go ahead--bend to the will of the world so you don't look 'different'!!

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=35015826&postcount=28

Here is how they went after Ice when he was in his questioning period:

Ah ha!!! And here it is—just as I’ve always knew! Those who are weak and without understanding of the historic Adventist faith—are AFRAID to be different! Thanks for finally revealing that sentiment to the world Ice.

I have a nephew who was about to leave the church because he had gone to the anti-Adventist sites—even those put out by our own membership—and he lamented the same sentiment! He said, “Mom—the whole world thinks we are WEIRD!!! Thank God thru earnest study—he now correctly understands the IJ and other doctrines that those from within are trying to destroy.

Well as the old saying goes, “If you can’t stand the heat—get OUT of the kitchen.” I don’t mind being weird for the truth. And so progressives—as long as you are carrying the Adventist name—the world is going to regard you as weird. So guess what—your only recourse is to get out of our church and go join one more to your liking or do as some others have—start your own religion. All I hear is you whining and belly-aching over our doctrines—well—there’s the door. Take your false doctrines you are constantly (and rudely) trying to shove down our throats and leave us alone. We have rejected your theories as false and are quite tired of the constant attacks by you.

It’s time it was said—it needed to be said. If you can’t take the criticism of the world against your church—what are you going to do in the time of trouble? Oh I know—you’ll deny—deny—deny!!

http://christianforums.com/t5387717&page=2

And she wonders why Ice did not post the OP here himself? Her own words and attitude provide the explanation for that.

The thread derailed and hit the weeds pretty fast. It wasn't pretty:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=34978601#post34978601

The Trads had to finally resort to garish pictures and juvenile heckling tactics because it became obvious to them thier pressure and fear-tactics wern't working.

The point is, if this is how horribly wrong it goes here on this forum alone, you can forget about any reasonable dialogue taking place in the church setting. Nothing has changed in the past 8 months BTW. Here is what the Trads think of you guys as we speak:

http://christianforums.com/t6592354-the-spirit-of-satan-is-revealed-in-anger-and-accusing.html

There is no reasoning with this kind of demonization. When they apply the words of the prophetess against you, it's become clear they consider you nothing more than a pestilence, enemies of the faith and demons working in disguise with the spirit of Satan to undermine the SDA belief system.

This forum should have split long ago. I will continue to push for it until it does. 20 members guys. That's all we need. We can do this. Enough is enough.

Ice, there is no love lost on you by some of the Trads here. They hate you and and your decision to leave, as is evidenced by the gloating at the news of your recent announcement.

Good luck with your future endeavors. Don't come back here and deal with this nonsense. It's not worth your time nor is it worth the grief you will receive if you do. Stay away and find another forum where you can speak freely.

Take care.

 

[Sophia7]

The point is, if this is how horribly wrong it goes here on this forum alone, you can forget about any reasonable dialogue taking place in the church setting. Nothing has changed in the past 8 months BTW. Here is what the Trads think of you guys as we speak:

http://christianforums.com/t6592354-the-spirit-of-satan-is-revealed-in-anger-and-accusing.html

You're right; nothing has changed in the past eight months.

 

[StormyOne]

You're right; nothing has changed in the past eight months.

nothing has changed with the mindset of some in the 2 yrs that I have been around....

 

[mva1985]

There is very little chance that the verse in Joel quoted has anything to do with the SDA denomination. That anyone thinks that a denomination is Christianity they are too uniformed to be relevant. which may explain why the comment did not deal with any of the substance of IceDragon's post but rather assumed the need for reform so that Ice conforms to SDA tradition.

I never implied that my reference to the text referred to the SDA church it obviously refers to reform on an individual level. That's all that is important.

 

[mva1985]

MVA was referring to me with that one RC.

It's alright though. I am getting quite used to him avoiding the issues and completely missing the point by now.

He has elevated it to an art.

You are the one constantly calling for reform.

 

[Mankin]

Progress is the will to embrace new ideas and move with the flow of time. Traditionalism is the ideal to dig your heels into the dirt and refuse to accept anything new whether interpretations or evidences.

 

[AndrewK788]

Progress is the will to embrace new ideas and move with the flow of time. Traditionalism is the ideal to dig your heels into the dirt and refuse to accept anything new whether interpretations or evidences.

Being close-minded and refusing to re-examine what you believe is dangerous. But equally dangerous is thinking that change is always a positive thing.

I don't mean that necessarily is the case here though. Just a thought.

 

[Mankin]

Being close-minded and refusing to re-examine what you believe is dangerous. But equally dangerous is thinking that change is always a positive thing.

I don't mean that necessarily is the case here though. Just a thought.

True. Some of the changes that took place during the French Revolution were not good at all.

 

[Sophia7]

nothing has changed with the mindset of some in the 2 yrs that I have been around....

True.

 

[RND]

And I too look forward to you moving beyond feasting on the husks of the perceived failures of Ellen G. White and doing something useful.

Absolutely classic!

 

[honorthesabbath]

Wow, it didn't take long for the gloating to start, did it?

Honor, why exactly are you always posting in here other than to be a nuisance? I thought you hated this pig-stye of an area?

We must assume you enjoy rolling in the slop with the rest of us then.

Night--you sure come up with some strange conclusions son. Gloating? Now thats a new one.

And as far as compassion is concerned. Why should we feel compassion for someone who claims the Holy Spirit has lead them out of the SDA church?

Shouldn't it be those who left the the church that should have compassion on 'we the deceived'?

Wow--you guys sure look at things backwards in my opinion.

 

[freeindeed2]

Night--you sure come up with some strange conclusions son. Gloating? Now thats a new one.

And as far as compassion is concerned. Why should we feel compassion for someone who claims the Holy Spirit has lead them out of the SDA church?

Maybe because the Holy Spirit (GOD) is bigger than a denomination/sect...?

Shouldn't it be those who left the the church that should have compassion on 'we the deceived'?

Wow--you guys sure look at things backwards in my opinion.

Which group is 'backwards'? Those who claim to be the 'only ones', or those who claim to be a part of the larger body of Christ?

In Christ alone...

 

[honorthesabbath]

[/COLOR][/B]
Maybe because the Holy Spirit (GOD) is bigger than a denomination/sect...?


Which group is 'backwards'? Those who claim to be the 'only ones', or those who claim to be a part of the larger body of Christ?

In Christ alone...

Do you know that not one of your responses made a lick of sense? Seems as though you missed each point completely.