Ian McKellen Admits to Ripping Pages from The Bible

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brightmorningstar

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To Polycarp1,
Well, "inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these, you have done it unto Me."

And, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Apparently Jesus thinks that good done on Earth is important.
Sure but as Jesus NT teaching says man and woman in faithful union or celibacy, (Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5) and that same sex relations are error (1 Cor 6-7, Romans 1 etc) the good is defined by Jesus.
 
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sandwiches

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To Sandwiches,
Well that’s for you to decide, the other question is different people have different ideas about what is good and what is bad.
So, what's good and bad here on earth and whether doing good is worth doing are both up to each individual?
 
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david_x

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The point you were trying to prove is that I hurt people without even knowing it, as though I can't control that impulse. So I just disproved that.

My point was that you hurt people without trying to. So no, you disproved nothing.
 
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Polycarp1

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To Polycarp1,
Sure but as Jesus NT teaching says man and woman in faithful union or celibacy, (Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5) and that same sex relations are error (1 Cor 6-7, Romans 1 etc) the good is defined by Jesus.

No, as your opinion of what Jesus was saying in the New Testament says.... Some of us think that when he was condemning the Pharisees for interpreting the Law to permit 'putting away on'es wife," that, and not who might marry whom, might have been what he was talking about.

Of course, that requires focusing on the text of the Bible itself, not bending it in support of a preconceived agenda item. By the way, can you or someone express the difference between marriage and sexual intercourse in English language words? Because there seems to be a great deal of difficulty for many people in drawing that distinction.

And finally, Brightmorningstar, if people insisted on quoting Isaiah 14:12 to prove that you are in fact Lucifer the Fallen at you in every response to every post you make, I would not be too disturbed if you started ripping that passage out of free Bibles, because it would have been used to condemn you unjustly. Perhaps one of your many gay and lesbian friends can explain to you what the parallel between that example and the circumstance set up in the first post in this thread is.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Polycarp1,
No, as your opinion of what Jesus was saying in the New Testament says....
No, I can see what is recorded in the Bible versions, its not opinion, unless you are proposing 1 Cor 7 “2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. “ could mean the big red bus went up the hill.

Some of us think that when he was condemning the Pharisees for interpreting the Law to permit 'putting away on'es wife," that, and not who might marry whom, might have been what he was talking about.
That’s part of the passage, but not the key bit regarding same sex relations where He reinforces Genesis 2, that in the beginning God created male and female, it was for this reason a man shall be united with his wife, and offers celibacy as the only alternative. Holistically one has the answer that same sex relations is error, supported then by direct condemnations as in 1 Cor 6, Romans 1 etc and more exclusions as in 1 Cor 7. There is no NT scripture to support it and plenty to exclude it and condemn it, your view is therefore to most an example of disbelief.


Of course, that requires focusing on the text of the Bible itself, not bending it in support of a preconceived agenda item.
That’s my point, on ehas to address what it says in context rather than ignore or, deny it or pretend it doesn’t exist.


And finally, Brightmorningstar, if people insisted on quoting Isaiah 14:12 to prove that you are in fact Lucifer the Fallen at you in every response to every post you make, I would not be too disturbed if you started ripping that passage out of free Bibles, because it would have been used to condemn you unjustly. Perhaps one of your many gay and lesbian friends can explain to you what the parallel between that example and the circumstance set up in the first post in this thread is.
Do you now mean what Isaiah 14:12 says or ones opinion of what it says? I wouldnt ask my gay and lesbian friends this as they dont necessarily claim to believe the Bible or necessarily call themselves Christians. I do know that one of them however doesnt consider same sex partnerships marriage.
 
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InkBlott

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To HannahBanana,

Well if you look at what Jesus says in John 15 which I alluded to in my previous post it I suggest Ghandi did do many things that were good according to what God sees as good, but not good that lasts.
The same I suggest with the Dalai Lama, and any of us.

But you seem to have moved on from whether people are intrinsically good or bad. As I said in God’s view we are intrinsically bad because we can do both good and evil, whereas intrinsically good to God is doing only good, and in worldly terms we must surely be both or neither. .. what do you think?

Hello, brightmorningstar. I hope you don't mind if I jump in and reply.

I have looked at John 15 many times, along with the rest of the book of John. May I suggest backing up a little and looking at chapter 14 and even the end of chapter 13 as well. Jesus' overarching theme seems, to me, to be that of loving one another. Apart from any sort of status, affiliation, revelation, theological litmus test or point of doctrine, as demonstrated by the questions from the disciples and answers by Jesus that are interjected, love is actually the deciding factor as to who is indeed one of his--as to who becomes the dwelling place for Christ and the Father. I suspect that there are many in this world who are his, known intimately by him, his brothers and sisters by virtue of love, who are not particularly aware of the details of his life and who could not articulate a Christian confession of faith if they had to. I also suspect that there are some who have all of their orthodoxy straight but are not in the least intimate with him. To do something in his name does not mean to summon up a magic word, but to act as he would act. May I suggest that the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew seems to support this as well (though I do not like how it ends).

However...

I do recognize that this is an unending source of tension within Christianity and indeed all of monotheism. Is one's religion a religion of love for one's neighbors and even of love toward strangers or is it one of separation and condemnation of those who do not fit whatever requirements we see fit to emphasize? I have concluded that it is a tension that Christianity cannot solve, however much I might be attracted to some of the sayings attributed to Jesus. As such, I sometimes find myself figuratively (if not literally) tearing pages out of my Bible. It has begun to occur to me that I actually have the authority to do this--to, like Abraham when he thought Yahweh wanted him to sacrifice his son, re-imagine that to which I give my ethical allegiance.

I wish you well in your own imagining of Christ. :)
 
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brightmorningstar

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To InkBlot,
Hello, brightmorningstar. I hope you don't mind if I jump in and reply.
Of course not at all
J


I would not agree with you that the overarching theme of John 13-16 is loving one another alone, rather specifically loving one another as disciples by following Jesus teaching.

love is actually the deciding factor as to who is indeed one of his--as to who becomes the dwelling place for Christ and the Father.
No I think Jesus is saying that He is the deciding factor, because God is love, otherwise it would be a contradiction to the statement that to remain in Him and He in us we need to do what He teaches. He is defining what love is.


I suspect that there are many in this world who are his, known intimately by him, his brothers and sisters by virtue of love, who are not particularly aware of the details of his life and who could not articulate a Christian confession of faith if they had to.
I would suggest that’s exactly the opposite of Jesus NT teaching throughout and specifically here. Take also for example where Jesus NT teaching says make disciples obeying all He taught in Matthew 28, or that by faith one is saved and not by works, works come through faith but Jesus gives a new command to His disciples, not to the crowds but to His disciples, love one another as He has loved so all the world will know who His disciples are. All are God’s creation of course but not all are sons of God.


It is all very well to talk of love but what entails love differs for many people.


I wish you well in your own imagining of Christ.
As you see the Christ I know and have a relationship with is the one fully according to His Biblical testimony.
 
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Healed_IHS

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That's awfully presumptuous. It really fascinates me how often Christians think "this person really doesn't like our religion, therefore they must really believe it." More likely he does not like the effect the bible has had on people. Being a gay person, he has likely put up with a lot of people using the bible as a means of justifying their behavior towards him.

Is it silly? Yes. Is it childish? Yes. Does it mean anything? Not really. But to say that he must really believe in the bible is equally silly.

What can one really expect? After all, we are dealing with Christians here, and 99% of them like to make the Bible an infallible God (If the only thing that is infallible is God, and the Bible is infallible, the Bible must be God = Bleach is mostly water... we are mostly water, therefore we are bleach).

I LOVE my God... however there are times I wish HER fan club would jump off a bridge.
 
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david_x

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What can one really expect? After all, we are dealing with Christians here, and 99% of them like to make the Bible an infallible God (If the only thing that is infallible is God, and the Bible is infallible, the Bible must be God = Bleach is mostly water... we are mostly water, therefore we are bleach).

I LOVE my God... however there are times I wish HER fan club would jump off a bridge.

Does it not stand to reason that a infallible being would have only spoken His infallible word?
 
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SithDoughnut

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Does it not stand to reason that a infallible being would have only spoken His infallible word?

Possibly, if God had written the Bible. I believe most Christians here would say that the writings of Paul were by Paul, not God.
 
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david_x

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Possibly, if God had written the Bible. I believe most Christians here would say that the writings of Paul were by Paul, not God.

I have been convinced that they are the words of God, through Paul. If others do not agree, that is fine. The Bible is not part of Christian dogma.
 
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I have been convinced that they are the words of God, through Paul. If others do not agree, that is fine. The Bible is not part of Christian dogma.

I believe in the Bible thusly, it is the pure light of God as seen through the prism of man's understanding. We get the light, but it is refracted (much the same way that Moses was unable to behold God's face and can only see his back).

What is the highest number that we can count to?
Where does space end?

Both of these things cannot be truly understood because they are infinite and we are finite.

Possibly, if God had written the Bible. I believe most Christians here would say that the writings of Paul were by Paul, not God.

Lol, while I agree with you about Paul writing Paul, I disagree that "most Christians here" would agree with us.
 
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Polycarp1

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I believe in the Bible thusly, it is the pure light of God as seen through the prism of man's understanding. We get the light, but it is refracted (much the same way that Moses was unable to behold God's face and can only see his back).

What is the highest number that we can count to?
Where does space end?

Both of these things cannot be truly understood because they are infinite and we are finite.



Lol, while I agree with you about Paul writing Paul, I disagree that "most Christians here" would agree with us.

This is exceptionally well said. One can catch the homely wisdom of James, the evangelistic scholarship of Paul, the compassionate researcher that is Luke, the visionary that is Ezekiel, in their words -- and yet God's Word shines through their words. I once heard a preacher say, "The Bible is not 'God's word'; it conveys God's Word to us." And I like very much what that says.

We cannot 'know God' the way we can Euclidean geometry; we can only know Him the way we know a very close and trustworthy friend. He is both immanent, close as one's skin, and transcendent, infinitely above us.
 
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InkBlott

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This is exceptionally well said. One can catch the homely wisdom of James, the evangelistic scholarship of Paul, the compassionate researcher that is Luke, the visionary that is Ezekiel, in their words -- and yet God's Word shines through their words. I once heard a preacher say, "The Bible is not 'God's word'; it conveys God's Word to us." And I like very much what that says.

We cannot 'know God' the way we can Euclidean geometry; we can only know Him the way we know a very close and trustworthy friend. He is both immanent, close as one's skin, and transcendent, infinitely above us.

Even as an unbeliever I can appreciate what you and ProdigalSeeker have said. May I suggest that if I were looking at this from the persepectrive of a believer, what Mr. McKellan is attempting to tear away (and in the case of a friend of mine: burn) is the very human, imperfect one-sidedness that is inherent in human language and not adequately expressive of that which is ineffable even in the hands of the Divine. I don't know Mr. McKellan's mind or even if this story is true of his actions, but what might be seen on the one hand as disrespect may on the other hand represet a frustrated respect for the Perfect Thing that cannot be conveyed even by scripture and that shows itself to be imperfectly conveyed by scripture inasmuch as it prompts others by its influence to treat him as if he were less than they, open game for cruelty, and even somehow short of fully human.

I think that is a reasonable yardstick.

I often (heart-piercingly often in fact) find certain passages of scripture to be opposed to the Gospel as I can best understand it according to the "better angels of my nature." It does absolutely no good to be reassured, as I have been by some, that this is merely due to my short-sightedness as a time-bound human being lacking an eternal perspective. It does less than no good to suggest, as some have, that I fail to accept these apparently lesser passages due to atheist stubbornness and, what's more, that I actually know better on some level. To say such is insulting and nothing more. There are passages of scritpure that offend, not my selfish and self-serving side, which I do have, but my most selfless self and most basic moral compass.

If I were to stop listening to these deepest promptings of my conscience, I would no longer have any means whatsoever by which to accept or reject anything beyond the most prosaic facts (which we atheists are already accused of worshipping).

There are tares in the fields, even in the scripture themselves. Perhaps given the confines of human language it could not be otherwise. The Gospel shines best in simple stories, koans and parables that convey, as stories can, a sense of truth that emerges in the telling, in the rich stew that is language, imagination and experience, the conscious and the unconscious, all coming together to form something in us that transcends any one.
 
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