I would not have know sin but for the law....

[rick357]

In my case the law had nothing to do with me coming to Jesus. It was pure unadulterated child faith believing I had a need. I came to Jesus prior to understanding what sin was and living an evil life style. IOW the worst things I did to my knowledge was lie. I fully agree that the law shows us our need for some solution to a severe problem for those of an age to understand that. I wasn't taught by the law on how to live a self righteous life.

So maybe we're in the same boat. It certainly appeared to me you're supporting the law for Christians. The SDA do the same thing all the time. No I didn't say you're SDA. The only way the law has had a part of my life is through the false teachings and practices of most churches. I was confused for more than 40 years. The things practiced and taught by churches I attended didn't work for me. The position I now hold does. Is it common? Nope! Do I care? Nope!!!! So what should I do? Sell out and believe anything I'm told? Why bother to read the Bible if that's the case? My very natural inquisitive nature from birth has led me to examine everything closely.

I don't believe its wrong to murder because the Bible says so. I believe its wrong to murder because that's what has been written on my heart. I never believed it was right to commit adultery and like my non religious neighbor that attitude doesn't come from the law. Yes if someone confronts me on the issue I may very well defend my position from the law and my answer will be more than one of the commandments. Its the short cut and not my basis of life. The law as its promoted here at CF has never been part of me and the only people to confront me with the law especially as a requirement for salvation are basically 2 religious sects - Primarily and namely the SDA group and secondly the MJ type group. Both seek total control of my religious life, fellowship with God and entrance to heaven. Sorry but no sale ever!!!!!! I've read the Bible cover to cover several times.

Now I've no real clue what your base is. But it seems to be a hodgepodge to me at the moment. Galatians 5 is a great example of my basis. It doesn't refer to the law for what sins are named. It plainly says Christians don't so engage themselves. Now if one loves their neighbor as themselves how can they do evil to them? Isn't obeying the law supposed to stop evil (sin)? It obviously doesn't even in religious circles of those pushing the law. Galatians 5 also states there is no law against the behavior of Christians. If I so engage myself what value is the law?

Now it beats me how the law is part of Christianity except its part of the Bible. My salvation didn't come by the law and the law can't maintain my salvation because it didn't grant it. The false brethren tried to bring this on the Gentiles and the Apostles clearly said no.

I'm more than sure I've not said everything.

Thank you for this post I understand now how you percieved what I said. I do not believe a believer must by his effort try to keep the law for he can not and God knows that. If he tries God is longsuffering and forbearing waiting on the ungratfull son to spend his streangth lust after pig food and come to his right mind. Notice I dont believe these people are lost for the Father considered him a son the whole time but he coild not help him till je came back to the Fathers house.the law showed the children of Israel to love God and throw their whole being on him it in otself did not teach a works righteousness. Forget trying to obey the law as you have alluded to christ living through you keeps the Law. So if Jesus keeps it through us what use it to us. In this way the law and the prophets all the teachings of held in them is Jesus. Why does the book of John start the way it does in the begining was the word. He is the word of God he existed before all things. Everytime the old testimony said and God said every inspired word written is him. And the word was made flesh...it wasnt that he.kept the law he was the law it was his nature. So we study the law to understand who he.was. His teachings were based on the oneness of hundreds of scriptures that he put into some times one or two sentance teachings. Its like an advanced technology found the reverse enginer it the fullfilled testiment is like this and few understand it to any great degree and none to every degree. But the law has it brokedown in smaller pieces so wecan rebuild it and inderstand it more. So does a christian have to keep the ten commandments yes but they cant. But if they trust in the Fathers gift of his son by his spirit they will keep it.

 

[Cribstyl]

Thank you for this post I understand now how you percieved what I said. I do not believe a believer must by his effort try to keep the law for he can not and God knows that. If he tries God is longsuffering and forbearing waiting on the ungratfull son to spend his streangth lust after pig food and come to his right mind. Notice I dont believe these people are lost for the Father considered him a son the whole time but he coild not help him till je came back to the Fathers house.the law showed the children of Israel to love God and throw their whole being on him it in otself did not teach a works righteousness. Forget trying to obey the law as you have alluded to christ living through you keeps the Law. So if Jesus keeps it through us what use it to us. In this way the law and the prophets all the teachings of held in them is Jesus. Why does the book of John start the way it does in the begining was the word. He is the word of God he existed before all things. Everytime the old testimony said and God said every inspired word written is him. And the word was made flesh...it wasnt that he.kept the law he was the law it was his nature. So we study the law to understand who he.was. His teachings were based on the oneness of hundreds of scriptures that he put into some times one or two sentance teachings. Its like an advanced technology found the reverse enginer it the fullfilled testiment is like this and few understand it to any great degree and none to every degree. But the law has it brokedown in smaller pieces so wecan rebuild it and inderstand it more. So does a christian have to keep the ten commandments yes but they cant. But if they trust in the Fathers gift of his son by his spirit they will keep it.

Your teachings are contrary to scriptures and should be exposed as fairy tales.

The bible proves that God's covenant mediated by Moses required righteousness by the law. The new covenant mediated with the blood of Jesus Christ requires righteousness by faith. The gospel teaches that the law is not of faith, but the man who want to live by the law will be judged by the law.

Your abuse of scriptures gives you much to talk about, but there is no truths in your endless chatter.

 

[squint]

Your teachings are contrary to scriptures and should be exposed as fairy tales.

The bible proves that God's covenant mediated by Moses required righteousness by the law. The new covenant mediated with the blood of Jesus Christ requires righteousness by faith. The gospel teaches that the law is not of faith, but the man who want to live by the law will be judged by the law.

Your abuse of scriptures gives you much to talk about, but there is no truths in your endless chatter.

Anyone who can read can see that Paul delineated every command in the entire text and laid it ALL upon believers in Romans 13:8-10.

The grace crowd just can't seem to understand that the law is spiritual and quite simple. And yes, Romans 13:8-10 is an obligation of N.T. believers.

A very pleasant obligation I might add.

But when people can't read and insist that the law must only be read through the eyes of external obedience to a physical set of demands they are not seeing THE LAW.

Paul shows in many places how to transition the law from black on white into LOVE and HOPE and sound judgments.

s

 

[rick357]

Your teachings are contrary to scriptures and should be exposed as fairy tales.

The bible proves that God's covenant mediated by Moses required righteousness by the law. The new covenant mediated with the blood of Jesus Christ requires righteousness by faith. The gospel teaches that the law is not of faith, but the man who want to live by the law will be judged by the law.

Your abuse of scriptures gives you much to talk about, but there is no truths in your endless chatter.

If only you could have explained this teaching to Habakkuk who said the just shall live...by his faith or maybe to moses when instructing aaron to put the name of YHWH on the people by praying the Lord bless thee and keep thee the Lord his face shine apon thee and be GRACIOUS unto thee the Lord lift up his countanance upon thee and give thee peace. For that matter you could have explained to Moses that he was mistaken when in deut 30: 6 he told Israel they would live when theLord thy God circumcised their heart to love him with all their heart and soul.maybe you could council God who through his prophets over and over stated that their observance of statutes was not accepted because their. Hearts were far from him. What you say is freedom is to not do what God has called right transgression is called bondage by Paul yet you say to do what is right is bondage so do you agree with Paul or not. Yet as Peter has said in his second epistle 3:11-18 the things wich Paul writes by the wisdom given to him are hard to understand which those which are unlearned( he was jewish education to him was eight years of study and memorization of Torah) and unstable wrestle to their own destruction. For our Lord said in the last days men shall call evil good and good evil. law bondage sin freedom showing the abundance of their own heart that to do right makes them slaves but to go in their own ways makes them free.

 

[Cribstyl]

Anyone who can read can see that Paul delineated every command in the entire text and laid it ALL upon believers in Romans 13:8-10.

Anyone who can read knows that the law has a death penalty to those who break it's commandments. Jesus died to satisfy what the law requires.

The grace crowd just can't seem to understand that the law is spiritual and quite simple. And yes, Romans 13:8-10 is an obligation of N.T. believers.

Rom 13:8-10 obligates the christian to love, because by loving your neighbor, the law is satisfied (fulfilled). Those not hooked on phonics tend to misunderstand what 'fulfill the law' means.

A very pleasant obligation I might add.

But when people can't read and insist that the law must only be read through the eyes of external obedience to a physical set of demands they are not seeing THE LAW.
Paul shows in many places how to transition the law from black on white into LOVE and HOPE and sound judgments.

s

False, Those who can read knows that Paul teaches, "we're not under the law" (Rom 6:14,15, Gal 5:18 ), We're dead to the law,(Rom 7:4 ) delivered from the law, (Rom 7:6 ) to serve God (not the law) in newness of spirit not in oldness of the letter.(which is all the commandments of the law)

 

[from scratch]

Thank you for this post I understand now how you percieved what I said. I do not believe a believer must by his effort try to keep the law for he can not and God knows that. If he tries God is longsuffering and forbearing waiting on the ungratfull son to spend his streangth lust after pig food and come to his right mind. Notice I dont believe these people are lost for the Father considered him a son the whole time but he coild not help him till je came back to the Fathers house.the law showed the children of Israel to love God and throw their whole being on him it in otself did not teach a works righteousness. Forget trying to obey the law as you have alluded to christ living through you keeps the Law. So if Jesus keeps it through us what use it to us. In this way the law and the prophets all the teachings of held in them is Jesus. Why does the book of John start the way it does in the begining was the word. He is the word of God he existed before all things. Everytime the old testimony said and God said every inspired word written is him. And the word was made flesh...it wasnt that he.kept the law he was the law it was his nature. So we study the law to understand who he.was. His teachings were based on the oneness of hundreds of scriptures that he put into some times one or two sentance teachings. Its like an advanced technology found the reverse enginer it the fullfilled testiment is like this and few understand it to any great degree and none to every degree. But the law has it brokedown in smaller pieces so wecan rebuild it and inderstand it more. So does a christian have to keep the ten commandments yes but they cant. But if they trust in the Fathers gift of his son by his spirit they will keep it.

You're most welcome. It still appears you promote keeping the law for the Christian. I violently disagree based on Moses the prophets and the New Testament specifically Jesus and Paul.

Now we are delivered from the law includes every aspect of the law since it doesn't specify some part in the text or context. Paul did however mention the Ten Commandments in the narrative. You're stating plainly the Christian isn't separated from the law. Hebrews 8 states very plainly the New Covenant isn't based on the law. Its based on better promises not law or even the law. It and the prophets both state very plainly not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. The New Covenant isn't a conditional covenant like the old one. The New Covenant is an outright unobligated covenant on the part of mankind. All we have to do is accept it. The Holy Spirit does the rest and doesn't lead us to the law or sin.

Moses says - And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. This covenant wasn't moved into the heart as some here claim. Both the prophets and Hebrews state new and the word used by Jeremiah means cut new stone. Likewise the word used in Hebrews new as in not previously existing. This rules out all the law which includes the Ten Commandments.

Yes the law teaches a works self righteousness. If it didn't there would be no need for correction to be in fellowship with God. Righteousness was indeed based on the law. And Romans states - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Yes I expect argument based on the actual words. The real deal here is God made them violators on purpose. All have sinned and Psalms says none have kept the law. The Romans passage states why Israel didn't and couldn't keep the law.

In a sense Jesus is the law. Jesus isn't the covenant issued to Israel in anyway. You can't obligate one to the law for salvation in anyway - physically or spiritually. Salvation isn't based on our performance. Its a free unobligated gift. No one can obligate God.

Yeah and John also states in chapter 1 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

He quotes Jesus in chapter 15 - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Good ol' Dr Luke says - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Do you need more? I got it.

You can't serve 2 masters and a house divided against itself won't stand.

 

[from scratch]

Anyone who can read can see that Paul delineated every command in the entire text and laid it ALL upon believers in Romans 13:8-10.

The grace crowd just can't seem to understand that the law is spiritual and quite simple. And yes, Romans 13:8-10 is an obligation of N.T. believers.

A very pleasant obligation I might add.

But when people can't read and insist that the law must only be read through the eyes of external obedience to a physical set of demands they are not seeing THE LAW.

Paul shows in many places how to transition the law from black on white into LOVE and HOPE and sound judgments.

s

Straight up hogwash! Paul in no way lays the law on believers.

 

[rick357]

You're most welcome. It still appears you promote keeping the law for the Christian. I violently disagree based on Moses the prophets and the New Testament specifically Jesus and Paul.

Now we are delivered from the law includes every aspect of the law since it doesn't specify some part in the text or context. Paul did however mention the Ten Commandments in the narrative. You're stating plainly the Christian isn't separated from the law. Hebrews 8 states very plainly the New Covenant isn't based on the law. Its based on better promises not law or even the law. It and the prophets both state very plainly not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. The New Covenant isn't a conditional covenant like the old one. The New Covenant is an outright unobligated covenant on the part of mankind. All we have to do is accept it. The Holy Spirit does the rest and doesn't lead us to the law or sin.

Moses says - And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. This covenant wasn't moved into the heart as some here claim. Both the prophets and Hebrews state new and the word used by Jeremiah means cut new stone. Likewise the word used in Hebrews new as in not previously existing. This rules out all the law which includes the Ten Commandments.

Yes the law teaches a works self righteousness. If it didn't there would be no need for correction to be in fellowship with God. Righteousness was indeed based on the law. And Romans states - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Yes I expect argument based on the actual words. The real deal here is God made them violators on purpose. All have sinned and Psalms says none have kept the law. The Romans passage states why Israel didn't and couldn't keep the law.

In a sense Jesus is the law. Jesus isn't the covenant issued to Israel in anyway. You can't obligate one to the law for salvation in anyway - physically or spiritually. Salvation isn't based on our performance. Its a free unobligated gift. No one can obligate God.

Yeah and John also states in chapter 1 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

He quotes Jesus in chapter 15 - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Good ol' Dr Luke says - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Do you need more? I got it.

You can't serve 2 masters and a house divided against itself won't stand.

To try to be clear a christian should not try to keep the law it is futile because he can not but a believer should trust Jesus by Holy Spirit to live in and through them. When this is done christ never broke the law and as he lives through a man submitted to Holy Spirit he still will not. This has nothing to do with the actions of the believer but it does determine his actions

 

[Cribstyl]

If only you could have explained this teaching to Habakkuk who said the just shall live...by his faith or maybe to moses when instructing aaron to put the name of YHWH on the people by praying the Lord bless thee and keep thee the Lord his face shine apon thee and be GRACIOUS unto thee the Lord lift up his countanance upon thee and give thee peace. For that matter you could have explained to Moses that he was mistaken when in deut 30: 6 he told Israel they would live when theLord thy God circumcised their heart to love him with all their heart and soul.maybe you could council God who through his prophets over and over stated that their observance of statutes was not accepted because their. Hearts were far from him. What you say is freedom is to not do what God has called right transgression is called bondage by Paul yet you say to do what is right is bondage so do you agree with Paul or not. Yet as Peter has said in his second epistle 3:11-18 the things wich Paul writes by the wisdom given to him are hard to understand which those which are unlearned( he was jewish education to him was eight years of study and memorization of Torah) and unstable wrestle to their own destruction. For our Lord said in the last days men shall call evil good and good evil. law bondage sin freedom showing the abundance of their own heart that to do right makes them slaves but to go in their own ways makes them free.

Yes, one of us is explaining teachings foreign to the scriptures and the other one is presenting the scriptures. Repost any of my posts where I say that 'Jesus is the law' or a statement that is contrary to scriptures.
What teaching do I need to explain to God, Habakkuk, Moses and Paul?

 

[rick357]

Yes, one of us is explaining teachings foreign to the scriptures and the other one is presenting the scriptures. Repost any of my posts where I say that 'Jesus is the law' or a statement that is contrary to scriptures.
What teaching do I need to explain to God, Habakkuk, Moses and Paul?

If you can not see that teaching what God revealed over 4000 years is no longer of any use because he changed things then it is you who is unscriptural. Stop saying those things dont apply when you know you cant live as an idol worshiper adulturer liar and still call yourself christian. Further even with those things being true you are right you can not live by law and get anything by it from God. But that catagory would include prayer time study of scripture giving to the church yet I imagine you do not cast these things off because you not under the law...I hear you I do those things because I want to not by law. Right thats my point sin is bondage the law shows us sin Jesus makes me free to serve God as he has said is right. Not because I am in bondage to the law but because I am free from sin.

 

[Setyoufree]

We all naturally tend to favor ourselves. It's part of the human condition.

Yes, but God's grace is available to experience His love in our lives. If not, our natures are more powerful then God's Spirit.

 

[Setyoufree]

Jesus fulfilled the Law for all mankind. It was nailed to His Cross. Therefore, there is no Law.

Because the law has been nailed to the cross? So I guess lying is okay?

Don't you know that it is a lie to say the law was nailed to the cross?

Yes, the believer is not under the law, but not because Christ did away with the law. Christ did away with your old life from Adam in Himself. Christ fulfilled the law because the law requires your death, not the law's death.

Not knowing the difference leads to heresy.

 

[Cribstyl]

If you can not see that teaching That God revealed over 4000 years is no longer of any use because he changed things then it is you who is unscriptural.

Not sure what you're saying here, but God's covenants dictates His requirements of people in their time. An example of this is: God told Adam that His meat would be herbs and fruits (Gen 1:29). After the flood, God told Noah that every moving thing that liveth would be meat for you.(Gen 9:3). Point: What God said 4000yrs ago may not apply to me.

Stop saying those things dont apply when you know you cant live as an idol worshiper adulturer liar and still call yourself christian.

Who is saying that sinful acts are permissable for me? You are. Being created in the image of God gives all men the capacity to know and choose between good and evil. Being a Christains should compell you to know God through the person of Jesus Christ, by the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not compell us to live by the law given Moses but by the commandments of Jesus Christ.
Saying that the handwritting of the law must apply underminds God's word and what God Has promised to do by His Spirt.
Do you know that the Comforter (Spirit of God) has come to earth til the day of Christ?
Why would we need Moses on eight track tape recorder if God is in the building?

Further even with those things being true you are right you can not live by law and get anything by it from God.

But that catagory would include prayer time study of scripture giving to the church yet I imagine you do not cast these things off because you not under the law...I hear you I do those things because I want to not by law. Right thats my point sin is bondage the law shows us sin Jesus makes me free to serve God as he has said is right. Not because I am in bondage to the law but because I am free from sin.

Is it my idea or does the scripture teach that we're not under the law? The law is a letter of condemnationRom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


The Holy Spirit does not send anyone as ministers of the law. They think they're helping people but they're putting people in bondage to other people. You wanna live by the law? Good luck with that.

2Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[squint]

Anyone who can read knows that the law has a death penalty to those who break it's commandments. Jesus died to satisfy what the law requires.

Those who don't love are already dead.

Rom 13:8-10 obligates the christian to love, because by loving your neighbor, the law is satisfied (fulfilled). Those not hooked on phonics tend to misunderstand what 'fulfill the law' means.

Guess that pretty well nails the issue then doesn't it?

Yes, your bolded statement is what the spirit of the law demands of believers, as you yourself state.

 

[Cribstyl]

Because the law has been nailed to the cross? So I guess lying is okay?

Don't you know that it is a lie to say the law was nailed to the cross?

Yes, the believer is not under the law, but not because Christ did away with the law. Christ did away with your old life from Adam in Himself. Christ fulfilled the law because the law requires your death, not the law's death.

Not knowing the difference leads to heresy.

False lead........ If you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, you should know that; God being present in your life compells you to live saved and sanctified. Does the law stop you from sin? Are the sins you commit written in the law?

 

[robinvanpersie]

False lead........ If you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, you should know that; God being present in your life compells you to live saved and sanctified. Does the law stop you from sin? Are the sins you commit written in the law?

[John 16:13]
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into ALL the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

Is the Law of God part of ALL truth?
[Psalm 119:142]
"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth."

It isn't a magic formula.
When you are born again, born from above, born of the Spirit---
His Spirit will lead you in ALL truth.

Unfortunately for those who want NOTHING to do with the Law of God...it is part of God's Truth

 

[rick357]

Not sure what you're saying here, but God's covenants dictates His requirements of people in their time. An example of this is: God told Adam that His meat would be herbs and fruits (Gen 1:29). After the flood, God told Noah that every moving thing that liveth would be meat for you.(Gen 9:3). Point: What God said 4000yrs ago may not apply to me.
Who is saying that sinful acts are permissable for me? You are. Being created in the image of God gives all men the capacity to know and choose between good and evil. Being a Christains should compell you to know God through the person of Jesus Christ, by the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not compell us to live by the law given Moses but by the commandments of Jesus Christ.
Saying that the handwritting of the law must apply underminds God's word and what God Has promised to do by His Spirt.
Do you know that the Comforter (Spirit of God) has come to earth til the day of Christ?
Why would we need Moses on eight track tape recorder if God is in the building?

Is it my idea or does the scripture teach that we're not under the law? The law is a letter of condemnationRom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The Holy Spirit does not send anyone as ministers of the law. They think they're helping people but they're putting people in bondage to other people. You wanna live by the law? Good luck with that.

2Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

First thank you for the way you posted that something may not apply to you directly above where I told you to stop saying that it worked out well I think. Second men choosing between what they believe to be good and evil is how we fell in the first place( the other option is life)
Third I wasnt aware doing what God says is right was bondage I was under the impression that the reason I couldnt do what was right was by the bondage to sin within me from which Jesus set me free.
and again it is the Holy Spirit making my crucified mans flesh to live. Imparting to me to be a son of God by doing rightousness in me.
I ask as paul asked if we are free from sin do we continue in it(do those things wich transgress the law)...and do we make christ the minister of sin.
Last Im sure you mean well but consider the thinking that the Holy law of God is a bondage. If through the spirit I am compelled to please God and I love him and I have forsaken all others including me then it is not bondage when the spirit through me does what is pleasing to God.
Last do you notice the ministry of Holy Spirit is to do what the written law could not. The written law could not make me free from sin and death because it depended on me keeping it by my own power which the Holy Law showed me was bound in sin. Christ having put me to death in his cross made me alive by his Spirit so that by the power of that same Spirit I am free to please God.

 

[from scratch]

Because the law has been nailed to the cross? So I guess lying is okay?

Don't you know that it is a lie to say the law was nailed to the cross?

Yes, the believer is not under the law, but not because Christ did away with the law. Christ did away with your old life from Adam in Himself. Christ fulfilled the law because the law requires your death, not the law's death.

Not knowing the difference leads to heresy.

I'd love to respond to this post but I'd only get reported and deleted with an infraction issued.

 

[from scratch]

To try to be clear a christian should not try to keep the law it is futile because he can not but a believer should trust Jesus by Holy Spirit to live in and through them. When this is done christ never broke the law and as he lives through a man submitted to Holy Spirit he still will not. This has nothing to do with the actions of the believer but it does determine his actions

Why try what is futile? The law doesn't determine my future because it has no jurisdiction.

 

[rick357]

Why try what is futile? The law doesn't determine my future because it has no jurisdiction.

Read further the law does not bring us to God but when God comes to us his law is with him... Im very sorry I could not share this with you.