I would not have know sin but for the law....

[Setyoufree]

The law exposes our sin that we may flee to Christ, and His love, and be justified by faith.

James 2:1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong? 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

Notice, under grace, the law doesn't condemn...it exposes sin. The law tells us favoritism is sin. The Spirit convicts us and then we repent and through God's grace, we endeavor to walk in the Spirit so as not to show favoritism.

Under grace the law can't touch us. However, it still can be used as a tool to show us our shortcomings.....If not, James chapter 2 makes no sense.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The law exposes our sin that we may flee to Christ, and His love, and be justified by faith.

James 2:1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong? 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

Notice, under grace, the law doesn't condemn...it exposes sin. The law tells us favoritism is sin. The Spirit convicts us and then we repent and through God's grace, we endeavor to walk in the Spirit so as not to show favoritism.

Under grace the law can't touch us. However, it still can be used as a tool to show us our shortcomings.....If not, James chapter 2 makes no sense.

The presentation doesn't make for clear reading. Gives me a headache just looking at it.

 

[Setyoufree]

The presentation doesn't make for clear reading. Gives me a headache just looking at it.

Perhaps you show favoritism?

 

[squint]

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

Notice, under grace, the law doesn't condemn...it exposes sin. The law tells us favoritism is sin. The Spirit convicts us and then we repent and through God's grace, we endeavor to walk in the Spirit so as not to show favoritism.

We 'all' show favoritism to ourselves every time we justify ourselves and condemn (outright or possibly) other believers to hell.

It's a common and acceptable practice in christianity today and has been for quite awhile. Not saying it's right, but I think you do the same thing.

We all naturally tend to favor ourselves. It's part of the human condition.

 

[rick357]

Perhaps you show favoritism?

it is no small task to uncover the relationship between the law and grace , between the Old Covenant and the new. men have wrestled with these scriptures thousands of years since I am neither more intelligent or wise than all of those before me I must be basic and simplistic
POINT 1:
Since God spoke the law to Moses than it is his word. Since Jesus is the word made flesh then he is not only God incarnate but his very being is the law. Since this is the case we can not remove the law without loosing who Christ is.
POINT 2:
Jesus taught(and Paul) that we keep the law by loving God and others. This is the same message Moses was given.(Deut. 10:12-21, 11:1,13-14,22 leviticus 19:17-18) in this there is no change between the two covenants.
Further the idea of protection, blessing, grace, peace, and living our life in his name are not new testiment ideas ( numbers 6:22-27) baptism laying on of hands the miraculous power of God through a chosen man all are found in the Old Covenant
POINT 3
Jesus himself said he did not come to destroy the law but to fullfill it. to fulfill something does not mean to do away with it but to give it its full ability and weight. Now this being true are we to follow the dietary and other regulations found there. NO. Jesus has answered this in saying the law says dont kill I say if you hate your in danger, the law says do not commit adultry I say if you lust after a woman you are guilty. The law in other words dealt with our outer actions, grace deals with our inner motives. So it is a true statment to say Grace is harder than the law.
POINT 4
How is it if no man could keep the law that now we must answer a higher standered. In this way: the blood of bulls and goats covered sin but did not take it away. So it was that untill Jesus sacrifice the Holy Spirit was with men even so far as to cover them like a mantle, but he could not become one with them or his pure holliness would destoy them because of the sin in them that was only covered by mercy. This is the reason the covenant of law was weak because it in part depended on the man himself.
The new covenant seald in Jesus blood takes sin away and the Holy Spirit becomes one with us, makes us something differant with a new heart and mind. This was pauls fear that if you go to your streangth to try to keep the law the power of what christ purchased for you can not operate. WE TRUST THAT JESUS HAS RESTORED US TO THE FATHER AND IN RETURN HE HAS GIVEN US HIS SPIRIT. That as a father he will shape our lives so we reflect his ways.

 

[squint]

it is no small task to uncover the relationship between the law and grace , between the Old Covenant and the new. men have wrestled with these scriptures thousands of years since I am neither more intelligent or wise than all of those before me I must be basic and simplistic
POINT 1:
Since God spoke the law to Moses than it is his word. Since Jesus is the word made flesh then he is not only God incarnate but his very being is the law. Since this is the case we can not remove the law without loosing who Christ is.
POINT 2:
Jesus taught(and Paul) that we keep the law by loving God and others. This is the same message Moses was given.(Deut. 10:12-21, 11:1,13-14,22 leviticus 19:17-18) in this there is no change between the two covenants.
Further the idea of protection, blessing, grace, peace, and living our life in his name are not new testiment ideas ( numbers 6:22-27) baptism laying on of hands the miraculous power of God through a chosen man all are found in the Old Covenant
POINT 3
Jesus himself said he did not come to destroy the law but to fullfill it. to fulfill something does not mean to do away with it but to give it its full ability and weight. Now this being true are we to follow the dietary and other regulations found there. NO. Jesus has answered this in saying the law says dont kill I say if you hate your in danger, the law says do not commit adultry I say if you lust after a woman you are guilty. The law in other words dealt with our outer actions, grace deals with our inner motives. So it is a true statment to say Grace is harder than the law.
POINT 4
How is it if no man could keep the law that now we must answer a higher standered. In this way: the blood of bulls and goats covered sin but did not take it away. So it was that untill Jesus sacrifice the Holy Spirit was with men even so far as to cover them like a mantle, but he could not become one with them or his pure holliness would destoy them because of the sin in them that was only covered by mercy. This is the reason the covenant of law was weak because it in part depended on the man himself.
The new covenant seald in Jesus blood takes sin away and the Holy Spirit becomes one with us, makes us something differant with a new heart and mind. This was pauls fear that if you go to your streangth to try to keep the law the power of what christ purchased for you can not operate. WE TRUST THAT JESUS HAS RESTORED US TO THE FATHER AND IN RETURN HE HAS GIVEN US HIS SPIRIT. That as a father he will shape our lives so we reflect his ways.

The above is one of the most truthfully inspired summaries I have seen here in quite awhile. A few here and there have arrived at similar (and I suspect somewhat independent from sectarian presentations) conclusions.

Bravo. Just BRAVO.

The change in the law transpired when it was transferred from print on paper and external actions of flesh/natural/carnal/blinded Israel and was made in His Flesh, died, resurrected, and His Spirit now within us, perpetually dividing us from the continuing lawlessness that still remains inherent in our flesh, which is DEMONIC.

In our midst He Divides US from our ENEMIES.

Our inherent enemies will never be legal and never could be legal. The law still condemns the devil and his messengers who will come to bear the full brunt of all judgments regarding the violations of LAW and the violations of LOVE.

This is our eventual HOPE, the release from those enemies who are technically presently bound with us, ala Romans 9:19-21, Romans 11:8, 32, Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 4:4, 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, 1 John 3:8 etc etc etc.

The Law is my Friend in this regards, even though I accept and understand that it is against the sin indwelling my flesh, the EVIL that is present with me as it was also present with Paul. (Romans 7:17-21) It was not him as Gods child.

s

 

[rick357]

The above is one of the most truthfully inspired summaries I have seen here in quite awhile. A few here and there have arrived at similar (and I suspect somewhat independent from sectarian presentations) conclusions.

Bravo. Just BRAVO.

The change in the law transpired when it was transferred from print on paper and external actions of flesh/natural/carnal/blinded Israel and was made in His Flesh, died, resurrected, and His Spirit now within us, perpetually dividing us from the continuing lawlessness that still remains inherent in our flesh, which is DEMONIC.

In our midst He Divides US from our ENEMIES.

Our inherent enemies will never be legal and never could be legal. The law still condemns the devil and his messengers who will come to bear the full brunt of all judgments regarding the violations of LAW and the violations of LOVE.

This is our eventual HOPE, the release from those enemies who are technically presently bound with us, ala Romans 9:19-21, Romans 11:8, 32, Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 4:4, 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, 1 John 3:8 etc etc etc.

The Law is my Friend in this regards, even though I accept and understand that it is against the sin indwelling my flesh, the EVIL that is present with me as it was also present with Paul. (Romans 7:17-21) It was not him as Gods child.

s

Thank you for your kindness. It is true that God does not reform us but instead regenerates us. This is were the gnostics missed the truth. They taught as greek philosophy also taught that the spirit was pure but trapped in evil flesh. they attached this teaching to Paul's teaching of flesh and spirit. however Paul uses the word flesh in a different manner. Their use of the word would be closer to Paul use of our members which he says can be either submitted to our flesh nature or unto the Lord as instruments of righteousness. Paul use of the word flesh is more to deal with the nature we have recieved from Adam. In this nature we find the problem of romams chapter 7 where the will to obey God may be found but not the ability. However the scripture tells us that when God delivers us we are delivered. This is confirmed in romans chapter 8 we give thanks to Jesus that through his spirit he makes us to live. Now we can not live by our own ability and at the same time his ability to answer to this paul teaches that we are to consider our self to be dead in christ and to trust that his spirit is living both in and through us.

 

[Dispy]

The law exposes our sin that we may flee to Christ, and His love, and be justified by faith.

James 2:1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong? 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

Notice, under grace, the law doesn't condemn...it exposes sin. The law tells us favoritism is sin. The Spirit convicts us and then we repent and through God's grace, we endeavor to walk in the Spirit so as not to show favoritism.

Under grace the law can't touch us. However, it still can be used as a tool to show us our shortcomings.....If not, James chapter 2 makes no sense.

When God created the world and mankind, there was no Law. After Adam and Eve fell, God gave them a conscience to live by.

There was no Law until God gave it to Israel, through Moses. Now Israel, as a nation could determine what was right, and what was wrong, and how ot obey God. The Law was only given to the nation of Israel, and if one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the CIVIL, MORAL, and CEREMONIAL Laws of Moses.

Jesus fulfilled the Law for all mankind. It was nailed to His Cross. Therefore, there is no Law.

When I examine the Law, and consider what my conscience tells me, I find many similarities. When I study Paul Epistles for our Christian walk, I find all the precepts of the Law, with the exception of tithing, and what a good consciences would tell an individual.

LAW ='s - Do what the Law requires or pay the penallty.

GRACE =s - Unmeritted favor. not getting what one deserves.

Salvation has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH. FAITH demonstrated by believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

 

[Cribstyl]

it is no small task to uncover the relationship between the law and grace , between the Old Covenant and the new. men have wrestled with these scriptures thousands of years since I am neither more intelligent or wise than all of those before me I must be basic and simplistic

Let's see if your comments line up with the scriptures.

POINT 1:
Since God spoke the law to Moses then it is his word. Since Jesus is the word made flesh then he is not only God incarnate but his very being is the law. Since this is the case we can not remove the law without loosing who Christ is.

That sounds like a math equation not found in the scriptures. It this really God's word? What should we do with the scriptures that asks and answers: "why serveth the law?" You will not accept scripture saying that the law served until the seed comes.
Gal 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.



Matthew and Luke both quoted Jesus saying that the books of the Old Testament were the rule of faith until the John. You cant seem to accept new message and new messengers.


Mat 11:13

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Luk 16:16

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (clue: Jesus saying that the Law and the prophets are not the Gospel of the kingdom of God)
Do you want scriptures showing that Jesus went around preaching the gospel of the Kingdom? Do you want scriptures showing that Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the gospel?
Here are some clear scriptures proving that Moses and Jesus did not have the same message to the world. Hebrew 3:1-6

 

[rick357]

Let's see if your comments line up with the scriptures.

That sounds like a math equation not found in the scriptures. It this really God's word? What should we do with the scriptures that asks and answers: "why serveth the law?" You will not accept scripture saying that the law served until the seed comes.
Gal 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Matthew and Luke both quoted Jesus saying that the books of the Old Testament were the rule of faith until the John. You cant seem to accept new message and new messengers.


Mat 11:13

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:16

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (clue: Jesus saying that the Law and the prophets are not the Gospel of the kingdom of God)
Do you want scriptures showing that Jesus went around preaching the gospel of the Kingdom? Do you want scriptures showing that Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the gospel?
Here are some clear scriptures proving that Moses and Jesus did not have the same message to the world. Hebrew 3:1-6

First Galatians agrees with me. A child is taught what and how a man should be. When he comes to manhood his teachers leave but not what they have taught. However if you continue reading the original post instead of proof texting I have dealt with Christ giving us this maturity through his spirit indwelling us
as to the kingdom you may or may not know the word means reign. And our Lord was if you can hear it saying that the rule of God in men as promised had arrived. This also has been said in the original post. If you are worried I may sacrifice a lamb I promise I wont. If you would consider this did christ become lawless. When he acts through his saints does he ever do anything that goes against his nature as revealed through that wich was his scriptures. Further why did his apostles and the church that firrst recieved Holy Spirit in themselves continue to consider themselves still part of Judaism and live as observant jews untill they were forced out by men. Perhaps his messangers did not understand his message as well as you.

 

[Cribstyl]

First Galatians agrees with me.

Hint: You should agree with Galatians and stop making questionable summations.

A child is taught what and how a man should be. When he comes to manhood his teachers leave but not what they have taught. However if you continue reading the original post instead of proof texting I have dealt with Christ giving us this maturity through his spirit indwelling us
as to the kingdom you may or may not know the word means reign. And our Lord was if you can hear it saying that the rule of God in men as promised had arrived. This also has been said in the original post. If you are worried I may sacrifice a lamb I promise I wont. If you would consider this did christ become lawless. When he acts through his saints does he ever do anything that goes against his nature as revealed through that wich was his scriptures. Further why did his apostles and the church that firrst recieved Holy Spirit in themselves continue to consider themselves still part of Judaism and live as observant jews untill they were forced out by men. Perhaps his messangers did not understand his message as well as you.

When you line up with the word of God, or not, I'll let you know. Until then have a good day.

 

[rick357]

Hint: You should agree with Galatians and stop making questionable summations.
Yes God does want us to see what he is teaching us only the words...wait I have to go remove all parable and allegory from my bible.


]
Be blessed thanks for your passion.

 

[from scratch]

Hint: You should agree with Galatians and stop making questionable summations.

Yes God does want us to see what he is teaching us only the words...wait I have to go remove all parable and allegory from my bible.

Be blessed thanks for your passion.

Whatever are you talking about? I suppose it might be 4:30 where Paul tells us to throw out the law.

 

[squint]

Whatever are you talking about? I suppose it might be 4:30 where Paul tells us to throw out the law.

Uh, not quite. Paul is clear that legal obedience is NOT the claimer or basis of the receipt of unmerited Grace. To think so is to fall away from unmerited favor/Grace.

That assuredly did NOT mean to cast aside the law.

The law also has many purposes, the least of which is to prove our mutual UNMERITED basis.

 

[from scratch]

Uh, not quite. Paul is clear that legal obedience is NOT the claimer or basis of the receipt of unmerited Grace. To think so is to fall away from unmerited favor/Grace.

That assuredly did NOT mean to cast aside the law.

The law also has many purposes, the least of which is to prove our mutual UNMERITED basis.

Cast aside the law or sin? Yes I know what that appears to ask. I maintain that Christians cast both aside. Being in compliance with the law isn't keeping the law as Paul shows in Romans 2:14.

 

[squint]

Cast aside the law or sin? Yes I know what that appears to ask. I maintain that Christians cast both aside.

So sez you. Being a factual sinner is the ground of unmerited Grace. Take away the measures of the law proving same and there are other issues.

Jesus saves sinners.

 

[from scratch]

So sez you. Being a factual sinner is the ground of unmerited Grace. Take away the measures of the law proving same and there are other issues.

Jesus saves sinners.

Upon receiving salvation a Christian is a factual saint and not a factual sinner. Status has changed for them.

 

[squint]

Upon receiving salvation a Christian is a factual saint and not a factual sinner. Status has changed for them.

Sorry, I don't believe you.

 

[Shimshon]

Upon receiving salvation a Christian is a factual saint and not a factual sinner. Status has changed for them.

You are not saved yet, you have faith in it though....... Or are you resurrected and cleaned living with Messiah in heaven now?

Have you no clue what 'your redemption draweth nigh' means? Is your salvation based on faith, or on something that already happened to you?

 

[from scratch]

Uh, not quite. Paul is clear that legal obedience is NOT the claimer or basis of the receipt of unmerited Grace. To think so is to fall away from unmerited favor/Grace.

That assuredly did NOT mean to cast aside the law.

The law also has many purposes, the least of which is to prove our mutual UNMERITED basis.

OK I agree with your first paragraph.

If one is legally obedient they have no need for unmerited favor because they have merited favor.

If we are delivered from the law (Rom 7:6) and Paul allegorically says to throw out the law in Gal 4:30 along with his not under the law statements, how can you say this is not casting aside the law? We're led by the Spirit and not obligated to the law (Gal 5:18).

Are you trying to pull muh leg on the second paragraph?