I will raise them up on the last day.

[JohnRabbit]

The question then arises is that those crying under the altar needed to wait for others to also depart from this life and why would that be necessary?

wrong question!

this is symbolism you're speaking of here!

btw, the second death is a death by which there will be no later resurrection.

you said:

"So the second death is a death of the spirit after judgement day for those not born again of the spirit"

the verse says:

Revelation 20:14(NKJV)
14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

being cast into the lake of fire is the second death, doesn't say anything about "death of the spirit", simply cannot get that from the verse!

this "death of the spirit" is a falsehood, given that spirit cannot die.

are we not flesh and blood?

John 3:6(NKJV)
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Christ said that if you're born of the flesh you are flesh.

man is not a spirit!

man is flesh and blood (gen 3:19)!


take a picture of someone you think that is spirit and post it please, i'd like to see that!

because i'm sure that he'll look like a flesh and blood human being!


so, i dont see where you have disproved Millenialism at all!

 

[shturt678s]

the "last day" Jesus was speaking of was the last day of the gentile rule of man.

Jesus gave us some insight when speaking prophetically in luke:

Luke 21:24(NKJV)
24And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

the insight is what i have in bold from the verse 24.

so i think logically we'd have to ask, what are "the times of the gentiles"?

and here, daniel gives us insight in chapter 2. in chapter 2, daniel interprets a dream that king nebuchadnezzar had, which was a prophecy of the reign of gentile nations, starting with king nebuchadnezzar to the time of Christ's return (dan 2:44).

Lk.21:24 has the "42 months" (Rev.11:2 or3) starting at 70 A.D. to the time of "1" Parousia where all from Adam forward awoke one of two places, and wide awake where their immortal souls will be joined to their bodies Jn.5:28, 29, ie, the end without any Jewish Millennial following.

Only to clarify, ie, no correction.

Old Jack

<snip> only for clarity

Old Jack

 

[JohnRabbit]

Lk.21:24 has the "42 months" (Rev.11:2 or3) starting at 70 A.D. to the time of "1" Parousia where all from Adam forward awoke one of two places, and wide awake where their immortal souls will be joined to their bodies Jn.5:28, 29, ie, the end without any Jewish Millennial following.

Only to clarify, ie, no correction.

Old Jack

<snip> only for clarity

Old Jack

the "time of the gentiles" clearly started in the time of king nebuchadnezzar and not 70 a.d., the prophecy says so!

and i'm sorry, but i don't subscribe to the "immortal soul" thingy and joining with bodies and the like.

jn 5:28-29 says nothing about "joining bodies" with souls!

and i have certainly never heard of a "jewish millennium".

 

[ForChristJesus]

Are Gentiles scripturally speaking believers or none-believers.

I know that Saint Paul states that once the Gentiles were strangers to the commonwealth of spiritual Israel and then by accepting Christ they became the many peoples who were not God's people then God did an amazing thing, by calling them his people.

So the Gentiles after accepting Christ in their hearts became what Saint Paul states as spiritual Jews and those that were Jews of the flesh who had not Christ became the unbelieving Gentiles.

For he is neither Jew, Greek nor gentile but all are one spiritual Israel in Christ Jesus.

What is your take on the above and if the statement below is indicative of Gentiles time to be fulfilled as opposed to the reaping of the first fruits of the great harvest of God, that pertained to the Old Testament TIMES, then the statement below just declares the very simple explanation, that until the everlasting gospel is preached to all the unbelieving Gentiles in the world, then the end will come, leading into Yom Kappur then finally Sukkot.

So the great harvest concerning the words of John as far as the last days are concerned could encompass the whole new covenant harvest from when the first fruits were reaped. So when were the first fruits reaped?

It seems when their tombs were opened in Matthew 27:52-53 in fulfilment to the prophecy in Ezekiel 37:12-14.

Last day could mean the latter half of the harvest pertaining to the new covenant time, times and dividing of times until the Gentiles who are the unbelievers of the world at large come to full, meaning being preached the everlasting gospel, then as Christ stated the end will be.

And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[ForChristJesus]

Jerusalem in this case is not an earthly entity but a spiritual entity composing Jews, Greeks and Gentiles from all nations as was declared in Revelation of John after the first fruits were the first to be redeemed from amongst men as the symbolic 144,000 from children of every tribe of old covenant Israel. These first fruits kick start the last days of the great harvest where the new covenant times, times and dividing of times came to rest on preaching the everlasting gospel to the unbelieving Gentiles in the world from the many nations.

The 144,000 were the firstfruits that were initially reaped from the great harvest of God.

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Then the three angel message goes out to the Gentiles of the New Covenant era that represents the fullness of the Gentiles.

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

So salvation came to the Jews first as the old covenant firstfruits of the great harvest when they had fulfilled their times and then the remaining harvest falls in the times of the unbelieving Gentiles by the preaching of the everlasting gospel to all the world.

 

[ForChristJesus]

So scripture defines the great harvest of God as the former and the latter rain, where the harvest is reaped.

Notice also the three angel messages that went out to the unbelieving gentile world was followed by the following:

Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap:for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

The angel above as part of the New Testament era declares the great harvest of God is now open for reaping as Christ the forerunner to the resurrection, the. His Old Testament saints as his first fruits, then finally those New Testament saints at his appearing.

So last day must be tied to Christ appearing and this encompasses a time throughout the new testament era as it is being continuously reaped and this following statement qualifies that reasoning:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The above message is to all the departed in Christ who are guaranteed the resurrection because as this Holy Spirit says their works do immediately follow them, meaning they are rewarded for the works done in the body.

This is the crown of righteousness that was laid by Christ as an eternal inheritance for every believer when they depart from the earthly life.

The last day must therefore be a last day individually for every believer who departs from this life and not an end of the world and certainly not the end of the harvest because these the angel messages are happening during the time, time and half a time when the Gentiles come to full knowledge of the everlasting gospel as it is preached in all the world and to all nations.

It appear that the appearing of The Lord is tied to a faithfuls departure as his last day on earth and Saint Paul before being poured out as a drink offering, meaning to be killed, was telling the members of they body of Christ the following:

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day:and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

So lords appearing is an after the first death appearing that fulfils the saying that all eyes will see him even the wicked who pierced him, because as all men are destined to die once, then towards the end of the great harvest when all me are dead, they would have all come face to face to be judged by The Lord, one by one in single file when their due date expires in the day and hour they know not when they are taken from this earthly life.

2 Timothy 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

So the fullness of the Gentiles is as Saint Paul states is the preaching of the everlasting gospel to the unbelieving Gentiles.

A Gentiles after believing no longer becomes classified as a gentile but becomes God's people and a spiritual Jew of the commonwealth of Israel that is no longer earthly but heavenly where the first fruits bride has been for the last almost 2000 years reigning with Christ and inviting all their new covenant brethren to die, then to be judged for the works done in the body and then to be raised in their heavenly bodies, to join former sea (old covenant) and the latter sea (new covenant) peoples who have already made it in the heavenly kingdom New Jerusalem.

That is why I pointed you to the versus:

Revelation 6:9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What was told to the old testament saints after being clothed with the white resurrection robes of heavenly saints who are the many captives that were lead into new Jerusalem (Ephesians 4:8) was to be patient and wait for their new covenant brethren to also die and through death, judgement and onto resurrection be reunited with them in glory and without sin onto The Lord at his second appearing and that is when the last day happens to e believer and that last day is when that particular believer dies.

Last day is when we die and therefore the all to be faithful onto death and correspond that with the saying:

Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them

This saying became clear after Christ arose as the forerunner to the resurrection for how say some amongst you that the dead rise not, for if the dead rise not, then Christ has not risen and if that we only hope for some future 2000 years in the making resurrection of the dead, then our hope in this case will make us men most miserable because those that have departed if they have not been raised have certainly perished, never to rise again.

So I hope that you can see the reaping from the great harvest of God had been initiated by Christ when he arose, for this event is connected directly to his resurrection and not some distant hope of a future resurrection in the making.

As it is written I will raise you on your last day.

The second appearing is tied to our last days on earth when death (the thief) destroys our earthly house, that is our bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:23
(KJV)
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(NIV)
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The Lord's coming is to all the departed and when Saint Paul states each man in his own order it clearly highlights the order of things for the new covenant believers, because this would be directly connected to the last day of that faithful before he departs from this earthly life and so every man or person is directed at the New Testament believers.

Paul gives the sequence of the resurrection of the dead and NIV recognises in its translation that the Hebrew or the Greek has no comma and in so discerning qualifies the list like this:

1) Christ as the forerunner to the resurrection
2) Old covenant saints, the first-fruits (144,000)
3) new covenant saints each in his own turn when their last day in the body come upon them to be brought before the judgement seat of The Lord who has been judging all nations and kindreds in this way and as all men are destined to die once, then judgement, therefore as it is written all eyes will see him the second time at his appearing.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Are Gentiles scripturally speaking believers or none-believers.

I know that Saint Paul states that once the Gentiles were strangers to the commonwealth of spiritual Israel and then by accepting Christ they became the many peoples who were not God's people then God did an amazing thing, by calling them his people.

So the Gentiles after accepting Christ in their hearts became what Saint Paul states as spiritual Jews and those that were Jews of the flesh who had not Christ became the unbelieving Gentiles.

For he is neither Jew, Greek nor gentile but all are one spiritual Israel in Christ Jesus.

What is your take on the above and if the statement below is indicative of Gentiles time to be fulfilled as opposed to the reaping of the first fruits of the great harvest of God, that pertained to the Old Testament TIMES, then the statement below just declares the very simple explanation, that until the everlasting gospel is preached to all the unbelieving Gentiles in the world, then the end will come, leading into Yom Kappur then finally Sukkot.

So the great harvest concerning the words of John as far as the last days are concerned could encompass the whole new covenant harvest from when the first fruits were reaped. So when were the first fruits reaped?

It seems when their tombs were opened in Matthew 27:52-53 in fulfilment to the prophecy in Ezekiel 37:12-14.

Last day could mean the latter half of the harvest pertaining to the new covenant time, times and dividing of times until the Gentiles who are the unbelievers of the world at large come to full, meaning being preached the everlasting gospel, then as Christ stated the end will be.

if we let prophecy be our guide we can stir away from rank spectulation.

the time of the gentile rule has to do with nations that are ruling the masses.

the prophecy in daniel 2 and rev 19 are clearly speaking of the rule of nations.

i pointed out that the return of Christ includes judgment, but that of the nations.

this in no way impedes God's ability to include gentile converts into the church.

the fact that the gospel will be preached until the very end is simply part of God's plan, but it was God who charted the rule of the gentiles until the Christ's second return.

so when Jesus said "this gospel will be preached in all the world then the end will come", He had to have known that that could not contradict the prophecy in dan 2!


it is important to keep the prophecies in mind when speaking of the last days or we may come up with false millennium concepts and errant reasons for when the "last day" is as i see on this forum.

"So when were the first fruits reaped?"

the first fruits will be harvested at the second coming!


Matthew 13:37-43(NKJV)
37He answered and said to them: &#8220;He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[ForChristJesus]

Has the judgement of the nations not already happened and happening after Christ ascended up on high and sat on the right hand of power as the almighty judge on his white throne of justice?

After all in Revelation of John the three angel messages are announced only after the first fruits are redeemed from amongst men, hence coinciding with the initiating of the reaping of the great harvest of God especially as it is connected to Christ's resurrection as the forerunner to the resurrection.

The first message does place the nations under the radar when the preaching of the everlasting gospel went out to them, remember this verse:

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

So within this first angel message proclaiming the everlasting gospel to be preach to all nations, kindred and tongues of the gentile people of the world, we also are reminded of this:

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The message I will highlight in bold as follows:

for the hour of his judgment is come:

Judgement is come is not that the judgement will come at some 2000 years in the making judgement, but in fact: THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT IS COME


So when the preaching of ten everlasting gospel commenced that automatically placed all the world under the present judgement, that is white throne of Christ, because judgement has arrived. So when the many nations are hearing the gospel and departing from this life, they are being judged according to the hour of judgement is come. This message was declared almost 2000 years ago to John.

So when a gentile unbeliever hears the message and listens, he then no longer comes under judgement provided he stays faithful onto his last day, meaning death. However if a gentile unbeliever hears the message and does not listen or accept it, he automatically according to scripture is:

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So the hour of judgement came almost 2000 years ago when Christ ascended up on high to sit on the right hand of power as the almighty judge and all eyes have most certainly being seeing him, only after they depart and according to Paul are destined to die once, then automatically and instantly Judgement.

So by scripture and by any definition of the terms of judging the nations, this has been happening for almost 2000 years and it is called the separation of the sheep from the goats.

This event is happening before the end of the harvest of God, otherwise what purpose would it have if it happens after the great harvest of God?

So the reaping of the great harvest of God must have been initiated by Christ when he ascended up in heaven as the almighty judge.

Has Christ been judging the nations?

Off course he has.

Give me reasons to why he is not judging them if by the definition of the word of the gospel went out to the unbelieving Gentiles nations of the world and those that hear the message and do not accept it are already condemned. So for them the judgement has been sealed and that happens immediately upon death because what further purpose is there to wait and scripture qualifiers this, as follows:

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest:and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

When was the time of the reaping of the harvest?

Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

The harvesters who are the angels have already been commanded to reap almost 2000 years ago when they gather the TARES (wicked) for the last judgement at the end of the harvest, whilst the sheep are not judged at the end of the harvest and are banked so to speak in Christ's barn, meaning they are being redeemed, for they have passed through the first resurrection to be counted in Christ measured Heavenly numbers within his heavenly barn, as the angelic cloud that he rides.

This event is happening through out the great harvest, only after the first fruits were reaped and the reaping of the harvest by the harvesters began almost 2000 years ago.

By saying that the first fruits are reaped at the end of the harvest of God makes absolutely no sense as when Christ comes the final time, this cloud he rides with are all the first fruits and the New Testament redeemed who accompany him as the multitudes (white cloud) who are already resurrected and were not hindered by those last few elect still remaining on earth in their earthly bodies.

When Christ comes there is no more death as hell and death are cast into the lake of fire, called the second death. So if there are no more death then there cannot be any earthly bodies remaining to be harvested for the resurrection.

If you have the first fruits to the harvest and those that die from now on from the first fruits I n The Lord and that their works do follow them says the Spirit, must have a time, time and a dividing of time to qualify as a harvest otherwise first fruits has no meaning what so ever.

The harvest must have a beginning and must have an end when the seventh trumpet is sounded by The Lord and declares time no longer. This coming is the end of the harvest and there is no more reaping after the end is there?

If you consider the harvesters are already reaping from the harvest for the last almost 2000 years and that the old covenant first fruits who were the ones crying under the altar have already been resurrected and given white robes then scripture follows harmoniously by self interpretation without knowing any world events, and that is the way I believe that God delivers his message, notwithstanding political world events.

 

[shturt678s]

the "time of the gentiles" clearly started in the time of king nebuchadnezzar and not 70 a.d., the prophecy says so!

Lk.21:24a, "...and shall be led captive into all the Gentiles,...." Maybe your correct thus let's eyeball together my friend. The two statements about those who shall be devoured by the mouth of the Roman short sword that was used by the Roman legionaries and about those who shall be carried away as captive slaves into all the Gentile nations of the Roman Empire are striking prophecies that were most literally fulfilled, ie, fall of Jerusalem 65-70 A.D. - The destruction of the Jewish nation as a nation.

Lk.21:24b, "...And Jerusalem shall be trampled by Gentiles until Gentile seasons shall be fulfilled". The simple basic periphrastic future is used because the idea to be expressed is durative: "Jerusalem shall continue to be trampled by Gentiles". Again, Rev.11:2, 3 began at 70 A.D. This even continues to the present day, ie, look at the population of Palestine and Jerusalem who are the worst type of Gentiles. Jesus states how long this subjection to Gentiles will last from 70 A.D.: "until Gentiles seasons shall be fulfilled," ie, till the ime of the "1" Parousia wtihout a so called Jewish Millennial before the "1" ending.

and i'm sorry, but i don't subscribe to the "immortal soul" thingy and joining with bodies and the like.

jn 5:28-29 says nothing about "joining bodies" with souls!

and i have certainly never heard of a "jewish millennium".

Old Jack, ie, the loosing of Satan is right around the corner with the "1" Return of our Lord next, ie, the "1" end.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Lk.21:24a, "...and shall be led captive into all the Gentiles,...." Maybe your correct thus let's eyeball together my friend. The two statements about those who shall be devoured by the mouth of the Roman short sword that was used by the Roman legionaries and about those who shall be carried away as captive slaves into all the Gentile nations of the Roman Empire are striking prophecies that were most literally fulfilled, ie, fall of Jerusalem 65-70 A.D. - The destruction of the Jewish nation as a nation.

Lk.21:24b, "...And Jerusalem shall be trampled by Gentiles until Gentile seasons shall be fulfilled". The simple basic periphrastic future is used because the idea to be expressed is durative: "Jerusalem shall continue to be trampled by Gentiles". Again, Rev.11:2, 3 began at 70 A.D. This even continues to the present day, ie, look at the population of Palestine and Jerusalem who are the worst type of Gentiles. Jesus states how long this subjection to Gentiles will last from 70 A.D.: "until Gentiles seasons shall be fulfilled," ie, till the ime of the "1" Parousia wtihout a so called Jewish Millennial before the "1" ending.



Old Jack, ie, the loosing of Satan is right around the corner with the "1" Return of our Lord next, ie, the "1" end.

the destruction of jerusalem was the type of destruction that will occur at the end time. the antitype will occur at the time of the end (dan 11:40-45).


the bible is replete with this principal.

adam the type and Christ the antitype

abraham the type of God the Father willing to sacrifice his son

the COI in the physical wilderness - the type and the new testament church the antitype, church in the spiritual wilderness.

the list goes on.

i'd just ask of you to show when satan was put away that his loosening is around the corner?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Has the judgement of the nations not already happened and happening after Christ ascended up on high and sat on the right hand of power as the almighty judge on his white throne of justice?

After all in Revelation of John the three angel messages are announced only after the first fruits are redeemed from amongst men, hence coinciding with the initiating of the reaping of the great harvest of God especially as it is connected to Christ's resurrection as the forerunner to the resurrection.

The first message does place the nations under the radar when the preaching of the everlasting gospel went out to them, remember this verse:



So within this first angel message proclaiming the everlasting gospel to be preach to all nations, kindred and tongues of the gentile people of the world, we also are reminded of this:



The message I will highlight in bold as follows:

for the hour of his judgment is come:

Judgement is come is not that the judgement will come at some 2000 years in the making judgement, but in fact: THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT IS COME


So when the preaching of ten everlasting gospel commenced that automatically placed all the world under the present judgement, that is white throne of Christ, because judgement has arrived. So when the many nations are hearing the gospel and departing from this life, they are being judged according to the hour of judgement is come. This message was declared almost 2000 years ago to John.

So when a gentile unbeliever hears the message and listens, he then no longer comes under judgement provided he stays faithful onto his last day, meaning death. However if a gentile unbeliever hears the message and does not listen or accept it, he automatically according to scripture is:



So the hour of judgement came almost 2000 years ago when Christ ascended up on high to sit on the right hand of power as the almighty judge and all eyes have most certainly being seeing him, only after they depart and according to Paul are destined to die once, then automatically and instantly Judgement.

So by scripture and by any definition of the terms of judging the nations, this has been happening for almost 2000 years and it is called the separation of the sheep from the goats.

This event is happening before the end of the harvest of God, otherwise what purpose would it have if it happens after the great harvest of God?

So the reaping of the great harvest of God must have been initiated by Christ when he ascended up in heaven as the almighty judge.

Has Christ been judging the nations?

Off course he has.

Give me reasons to why he is not judging them if by the definition of the word of the gospel went out to the unbelieving Gentiles nations of the world and those that hear the message and do not accept it are already condemned. So for them the judgement has been sealed and that happens immediately upon death because what further purpose is there to wait and scripture qualifiers this, as follows:



When was the time of the reaping of the harvest?



The harvesters who are the angels have already been commanded to reap almost 2000 years ago when they gather the TARES (wicked) for the last judgement at the end of the harvest, whilst the sheep are not judged at the end of the harvest and are banked so to speak in Christ's barn, meaning they are being redeemed, for they have passed through the first resurrection to be counted in Christ measured Heavenly numbers within his heavenly barn, as the angelic cloud that he rides.

This event is happening through out the great harvest, only after the first fruits were reaped and the reaping of the harvest by the harvesters began almost 2000 years ago.

By saying that the first fruits are reaped at the end of the harvest of God makes absolutely no sense as when Christ comes the final time, this cloud he rides with are all the first fruits and the New Testament redeemed who accompany him as the multitudes (white cloud) who are already resurrected and were not hindered by those last few elect still remaining on earth in their earthly bodies.

When Christ comes there is no more death as hell and death are cast into the lake of fire, called the second death. So if there are no more death then there cannot be any earthly bodies remaining to be harvested for the resurrection.

If you have the first fruits to the harvest and those that die from now on from the first fruits I n The Lord and that their works do follow them says the Spirit, must have a time, time and a dividing of time to qualify as a harvest otherwise first fruits has no meaning what so ever.

The harvest must have a beginning and must have an end when the seventh trumpet is sounded by The Lord and declares time no longer. This coming is the end of the harvest and there is no more reaping after the end is there?

If you consider the harvesters are already reaping from the harvest for the last almost 2000 years and that the old covenant first fruits who were the ones crying under the altar have already been resurrected and given white robes then scripture follows harmoniously by self interpretation without knowing any world events, and that is the way I believe that God delivers his message, notwithstanding political world events.

Matthew 13:39(NKJV)
39The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

 

[shturt678s]

the destruction of jerusalem was the type of destruction that will occur at the end time. the antitype will occur at the time of the end (dan 11:40-45).


the bible is replete with this principal.

adam the type and Christ the antitype

abraham the type of God the Father willing to sacrifice his son

the COI in the physical wilderness - the type and the new testament church the antitype, church in the spiritual wilderness.

the list goes on.

i'd just ask of you to show when satan was put away that his loosening is around the corner?

Jesus at the Cross did it along with Michael the archangel where Satan underwent a serious beating, Rev.12:7; 20:2, etc. Jesus a pretty powerful God. Satan will be loosed soon, if not already loosed at Rev.20:7 to usher in the end. :o

Old Jack

 

[ForChristJesus]

Matthew 13:39(NKJV)
39The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

Very interesting point.

What is the end of the age?

Matthew 13:39-40
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

If the harvest is said to be the end of the world and this statement follows in context to the gathering of the TARES to be burnt in the fire at the end of the world, then is this not the end of the great harvest harvest of God, where the TARES who had no part in the first resurrection, now face the second death in the lake of fire, after the seventh trumpet is sounded by Christ by declaring time no longer.

If we read further the followings verse:

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And this previous verse within the same chapter:

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest:and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

We notice here that by letting both the TARES and the wheat to grow side by side until the time of the harvest, does not seem to point to the end of the world, but rather a beginning of the reaping of the great harvest of God.

The reasoning behind this thought, is that the TARES are first being gathered in bundles for the final judgement to be burnt. In John's Revelation anyone that had no part in the first resurrection (resurrection of the dead) after they departed from the earthly life, are therefore assigned the final judgement of condemnation in the lake of fire, in the form of the second death.

Notice the statement:

gather the wheat into my barn.

Automatically implies that the wheat already pass from earthly life through the resurrection of the dead (first resurrection) and are counted within Christ's measured heavenly host numbers, as the many ten thousand ten thousands, redeemed from amongst men. The wheat are having part in the first resurrection and so the second death has no power over them, because this final judgement in the lake of fire is only reserved for those TARES who are gathered in bundles for the final destruction at the end of the harvest.

So just by these versus alone it clear that the wheat are already being banked so to speak as the many measured host of heaven within his inner court because they are automatically gathered into his barn.

What does this mean being gathered into his barn?

They have arrived, that is they have arrived in their eternal heavenly destination. There is no next, because they have arrived, they are resurrected to be with Christ.

Remember in conjunction with the call:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The following outcry of urgency to start to reap from the great harvest follows:

Revelation 14:14-15
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Notice that from when the old covenant saints (first fruits) were the first to be reaped or harvested into Christ's heavenly barn, the picture now shows the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power with A (indefinite article) WHITE CLOUD, which his old covenant bride that sat with him as the many captives he took with him and gave them gifts for the works done in the body (Ephesians 4:8).

Then what happens is the urgency for the reaping because the harvest is now ripe for the picking. The start of the harvest happened almost 2000 years ago when the old covenant bride as A WHITE CLOUD (symbolic) accompanied him into their new country (land), heavenly New Jerusalem.

Also note that the translation you provided is more correct than the KJV because the end of the world can be mistook for the end of the great harvest of God, whilst the end of the age means the end of the Old Testament age and the beginning of the new covenant age.


How can we prove that this statement the end of the age points to the end of the Old Testament era, coinciding with the beginning of the reaping of the great harvest of God.

Hebrews 9:26-28
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice that the end of the world is actually the end of the age and we will later establish the Greek word being used, if it is the same.

1. Firstly Christ appeared in the end of the world / age
   
2. Secondly all men are assigned to die once and enter in through the first resurrection via the first judgement, that is the separation of the wheat and goats. This is starting of the reaping of the great harvest because those that enter into Christ's barn will not face the judgement at the end of the harvest of. God when the seven trumpet is sounded by Christ declaring time no longer.
   
3. Thirdly Christ's second appearing is when we are presented before his white throne judgement seat without sin, because we has been sanctified by the Holy Ghost in this earthly life time.

So what does the end of the world or age mean in context to the gathering of ten TARES in bundles?

Remember a person is reaped for the harvest when the time in the earthly life is completed and so the many eyes that will see The Lord pertains to all that are destined to die who eventually depart to be judged by The Lord. From the beginning of the reaping of the harvest to the end of the harvest or the world, where the last remaining elect who are barely alive on a condemned earth, will be the last eyes to see as by then all men would have died, been judged and either entered in through the first resurrection (resurrection of the dead) in Christ's barn or were temporarily gathered as the TARES for the final judgement at the end of the harvest and thereby the end of the world as all human life has died.

Putting the TARES in bundles is not an instant implementation but has been implemented throughout the great harvest of God when the thief (death) comes and takes those when their day and hour comes to face Christ and be judged for their works on the body, whether good or bad.

Now the Greek:

Refer to the Strong's dictionary meanings below and you will note these things:

1) The END as far as Hebrews 8:26-18 implies is the consummation of the bride and that was done when the old covenant first fruits were resurrected (Matthew 27:52-53) and taken with Christ into their new promised heavenly country (land) New Jerusalem.

END

4930 &#963;&#965;&#957;&#964;&#941;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945; [SUNTE/LEIA] {syntéleia} \soon-tel'-i-ah\
from 4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
See Greek 4931.
Find all occurrences

2) The WORLD is used as an idiom reflecting the old covenant people who lived in the old covenant times and not literally the material world as such.

WORLD

3588 &#8001; [O(] {ho} \ho\
including the feminine &#7969; [H(] {h&#275;} \hay\
and the neuter &#964;&#972; [TO/] {tó} \to\
in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):--the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
Find all occurrences

3) The WOLRD as an idiom is qualified by The Jewish Messianic period, that is, the Old Covenant times or age. According to scripture what was written almost 2000 years ago in the first century, the term world would reflect to the immediate Messianic period in the past, that is the Old covenant age and not from the point of reference of today's Messianic Jews who adhere to the Torah.

165 &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957; [AI)W/N] {ai&#7763;n} \ahee-ohn'\
from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
See Greek 104.
See Greek 5550.
Find all occurrences

The end of the age or world is an idiom that was used by a Jewish scholar like Matthew to reflect the passing Old Covenant age of his forefathers and has nothing to do with a literal end of the world as far as a future event because the inferences made in using these terms THE END OF THE WORLD/AGE is always to the Old passing Messianic period of Matthew's Old Covenant forefathers.

It is an idiom of saying:

IN WITH THE NEW AND OUT WITH THE OLD and the reference is always the Old Messianic period of their forefathers.

The word UNTIL in:

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Notice Strong's dictionary meaning of the word UNTIL encompasses a period of time, that encompasses the time, time and the dividing of time for the reaping of the great harvest from the first fruits right up to the last remaining elect.

3360 &#956;&#941;&#967;&#961;&#953; [ME/XRI] {méchri} \mekh'-ree\
or &#956;&#949;&#967;&#961;&#943;&#962; [MEXRI/S] {mechrís} \mekh-ris'\
from 3372; as far as, i.e. up to a certain point (as a preposition, of extent (denoting the terminus, whereas 891 refers especially to the space of time or place intervening) or conjunction):--till, (un-)to, until.
See Greek 3372.
See Greek 891.
Find all occurrences

THE HARVEST is a definite article alluding to an event that encompasses a time period or interval and what the word harvest means on context is the beginning of the reaping for this time period is the reaping of the harvest.

The Strong's dictionary states:

2326 &#952;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#972;&#962; [QERISMO/S] {therismós} \ther-is-mos'\
from 2325; reaping, i.e. the crop:--harvest.
See Greek 2325.
Find all occurrences

So the statement:

Let both grow together until the harvest

Is the beginning of the reaping of the great harvest of God that kick starts this time period allotted for reaping and as the angel cried the harvest is ripe, and now is the time to reap from it.

Also the word THE BARN is a definite article from the Strong's dictionary that is a repository of all those who have been redeemed from amongst men.

596 &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#952;&#942;&#954;&#951; [A)POQH/KH] {apoth&#7703;k&#275;} \ap-oth-ay'-kay\
from 659; a repository, i.e. granary:--barn, garner.
See Greek 659.
Find all occurrences

So in conclusion:

The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

Is when the angels are instructed at the start of the reaping time period of the harvest to start reaping and separating the wheat from the TARES.

This even has been happening from when the end of the old covenant messianic age was and the new covenant age began, right up to the time, time and dividing of time when Christ sounds the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer.

The end of the age does not imply the end of the literal world as this has nothing to do with the old covenant messianic period that Matthew a Jewish scholar was alluding to.

That is why one of the angel message after the first fruits of the harvest were reaped as the old covenant bride and the everlasting gospel went out to all the other unbelieving gentile nations, the Spirit said:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The resurrection of the dead must coincide with The Lord's appearing and that is when we New Testament believers depart from this life to face the judgement seat of Christ and to enter through the first resurrection onto eternal life to receive their crown of righteousness, so that we greet Christ at his second appearing, not as sinners but as sanctified by the Holy Spirit Saints.

Therefore the last day as far as a faithful is concerned is their last day and hour in their earthly bodies. The reaping of the harvest that began when the old messianic covenant era ended kick started the resurrection of the dead and that is why the outcry of the urgency to reap from the harvest before the time, time and half a time expires at the seventh trumpet call and the Spirit ensuring us that who ever faithful dies from now on, their works in the body will automatically and immediately follow them, meaning they will not wait for a 2000 years on the making resurrection of the dead but will be raised as Christ said on their last day.

 

[ForChristJesus]

I almost forgot the Hebrews verse:

Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The same Strong's Greek dictionary word is used for WORLD is used in Matthew 13:39.

Matthew being a Jewish scholar used the word to imply the end of the old messianic covenant age of his forefathers and the beginning of a new age.

The same Strong's Greek word is used to highlight the old messianic period and not a literal future materialistic end of the world so to speak. His use of the word END is also an idiom by implying:

IN WITH THE NEW AND OUT WITH THE OLD.

165 &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957; [AI)W/N] {ai&#7763;n} \ahee-ohn'\
from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
See Greek 104.
See Greek 5550.
Find all occurrences

 

[JohnRabbit]

Jesus at the Cross did it along with Michael the archangel where Satan underwent a serious beating, Rev.12:7; 20:2, etc. Jesus a pretty powerful God. Satan will be loosed soon, if not already loosed at Rev.20:7 to usher in the end. :o

Old Jack

it's hard for me to follow along with this scenario.

when Christ returns, that will start the 1000 year reign.

the saints will be ruling with the Christ.

this obviously has not taken place!

it is during this thousand year period that satan will be put away, this is when rev 20:2 comes into play, not to mention that the first resurrection hasn't taken place yet (rev 20:4).

then you get into verse 5 about "the rest of the dead" not living again until the thousand years were finished! (just doesn't jive by your scenario, with all due respect)

remember satan was loosed after the thousand year period and then the White Throne Judgment takes place - none of this has happened yet!

 

[shturt678s]

it's hard for me to follow along with this scenario.

when Christ returns, that will start the 1000 year reign.

I get enough respect by my family and community I live in, ie, they think I know something about God - boy are they deceived. I'll do a reverse, and have a high respect for you sir, ie, how's that? The 1,000 years in Rev.20 began at the Cross and end at Rev.20:7. There are "7" one endings of the world in Revelation, eg, all the visions are in, say, in sync.

the saints will be ruling with the Christ.

All the saints from Adam forward entered heaven upon their passing, ie, no soul snoozing (only a head's up), and pretty much ruling with our Lord beyond our understanding now.

this obviously has not taken place!

it is during this thousand year period that satan will be put away, this is when rev 20:2 comes into play, not to mention that the first resurrection hasn't taken place yet (rev 20:4).

A little more happened at the Cross sir, ie, Satan bound by Michael where the 1st half of one resurrection has, and continues to take place.

then you get into verse 5 about "the rest of the dead" not living again until the thousand years were finished! (just doesn't jive by your scenario, with all due respect)

remember satan was loosed after the thousand year period and then the White Throne Judgment takes place - none of this has happened yet!

Not trying to bug you, ie, just trying to bring in a little more clarity,

Old Jack

 

[JohnRabbit]

Very interesting point.

What is the end of the age?



If the harvest is said to be the end of the world and this statement follows in context to the gathering of the TARES to be burnt in the fire at the end of the world, then is this not the end of the great harvest harvest of God, where the TARES who had no part in the first resurrection, now face the second death in the lake of fire, after the seventh trumpet is sounded by Christ by declaring time no longer.

If we read further the followings verse:



And this previous verse within the same chapter:



We notice here that by letting both the TARES and the wheat to grow side by side until the time of the harvest, does not seem to point to the end of the world, but rather a beginning of the reaping of the great harvest of God.

The reasoning behind this thought, is that the TARES are first being gathered in bundles for the final judgement to be burnt. In John's Revelation anyone that had no part in the first resurrection (resurrection of the dead) after they departed from the earthly life, are therefore assigned the final judgement of condemnation in the lake of fire, in the form of the second death.

Notice the statement:

gather the wheat into my barn.

Automatically implies that the wheat already pass from earthly life through the resurrection of the dead (first resurrection) and are counted within Christ's measured heavenly host numbers, as the many ten thousand ten thousands, redeemed from amongst men. The wheat are having part in the first resurrection and so the second death has no power over them, because this final judgement in the lake of fire is only reserved for those TARES who are gathered in bundles for the final destruction at the end of the harvest.

So just by these versus alone it clear that the wheat are already being banked so to speak as the many measured host of heaven within his inner court because they are automatically gathered into his barn.

What does this mean being gathered into his barn?

They have arrived, that is they have arrived in their eternal heavenly destination. There is no next, because they have arrived, they are resurrected to be with Christ.

Remember in conjunction with the call:



The following outcry of urgency to start to reap from the great harvest follows:



Notice that from when the old covenant saints (first fruits) were the first to be reaped or harvested into Christ's heavenly barn, the picture now shows the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power with A (indefinite article) WHITE CLOUD, which his old covenant bride that sat with him as the many captives he took with him and gave them gifts for the works done in the body (Ephesians 4:8).

Then what happens is the urgency for the reaping because the harvest is now ripe for the picking. The start of the harvest happened almost 2000 years ago when the old covenant bride as A WHITE CLOUD (symbolic) accompanied him into their new country (land), heavenly New Jerusalem.

Also note that the translation you provided is more correct than the KJV because the end of the world can be mistook for the end of the great harvest of God, whilst the end of the age means the end of the Old Testament age and the beginning of the new covenant age.


How can we prove that this statement the end of the age points to the end of the Old Testament era, coinciding with the beginning of the reaping of the great harvest of God.



Notice that the end of the world is actually the end of the age and we will later establish the Greek word being used, if it is the same.

1. Firstly Christ appeared in the end of the world / age
   
2. Secondly all men are assigned to die once and enter in through the first resurrection via the first judgement, that is the separation of the wheat and goats. This is starting of the reaping of the great harvest because those that enter into Christ's barn will not face the judgement at the end of the harvest of. God when the seven trumpet is sounded by Christ declaring time no longer.
   
3. Thirdly Christ's second appearing is when we are presented before his white throne judgement seat without sin, because we has been sanctified by the Holy Ghost in this earthly life time.

So what does the end of the world or age mean in context to the gathering of ten TARES in bundles?

Remember a person is reaped for the harvest when the time in the earthly life is completed and so the many eyes that will see The Lord pertains to all that are destined to die who eventually depart to be judged by The Lord. From the beginning of the reaping of the harvest to the end of the harvest or the world, where the last remaining elect who are barely alive on a condemned earth, will be the last eyes to see as by then all men would have died, been judged and either entered in through the first resurrection (resurrection of the dead) in Christ's barn or were temporarily gathered as the TARES for the final judgement at the end of the harvest and thereby the end of the world as all human life has died.

Putting the TARES in bundles is not an instant implementation but has been implemented throughout the great harvest of God when the thief (death) comes and takes those when their day and hour comes to face Christ and be judged for their works on the body, whether good or bad.

Now the Greek:

Refer to the Strong's dictionary meanings below and you will note these things:

1) The END as far as Hebrews 8:26-18 implies is the consummation of the bride and that was done when the old covenant first fruits were resurrected (Matthew 27:52-53) and taken with Christ into their new promised heavenly country (land) New Jerusalem.

END



2) The WORLD is used as an idiom reflecting the old covenant people who lived in the old covenant times and not literally the material world as such.

WORLD



3) The WOLRD as an idiom is qualified by The Jewish Messianic period, that is, the Old Covenant times or age. According to scripture what was written almost 2000 years ago in the first century, the term world would reflect to the immediate Messianic period in the past, that is the Old covenant age and not from the point of reference of today's Messianic Jews who adhere to the Torah.



The end of the age or world is an idiom that was used by a Jewish scholar like Matthew to reflect the passing Old Covenant age of his forefathers and has nothing to do with a literal end of the world as far as a future event because the inferences made in using these terms THE END OF THE WORLD/AGE is always to the Old passing Messianic period of Matthew's Old Covenant forefathers.

It is an idiom of saying:

IN WITH THE NEW AND OUT WITH THE OLD and the reference is always the Old Messianic period of their forefathers.

The word UNTIL in:



Notice Strong's dictionary meaning of the word UNTIL encompasses a period of time, that encompasses the time, time and the dividing of time for the reaping of the great harvest from the first fruits right up to the last remaining elect.



THE HARVEST is a definite article alluding to an event that encompasses a time period or interval and what the word harvest means on context is the beginning of the reaping for this time period is the reaping of the harvest.

The Strong's dictionary states:



So the statement:



Is the beginning of the reaping of the great harvest of God that kick starts this time period allotted for reaping and as the angel cried the harvest is ripe, and now is the time to reap from it.

Also the word THE BARN is a definite article from the Strong's dictionary that is a repository of all those who have been redeemed from amongst men.



So in conclusion:



Is when the angels are instructed at the start of the reaping time period of the harvest to start reaping and separating the wheat from the TARES.

This even has been happening from when the end of the old covenant messianic age was and the new covenant age began, right up to the time, time and dividing of time when Christ sounds the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer.

The end of the age does not imply the end of the literal world as this has nothing to do with the old covenant messianic period that Matthew a Jewish scholar was alluding to.

That is why one of the angel message after the first fruits of the harvest were reaped as the old covenant bride and the everlasting gospel went out to all the other unbelieving gentile nations, the Spirit said:



The resurrection of the dead must coincide with The Lord's appearing and that is when we New Testament believers depart from this life to face the judgement seat of Christ and to enter through the first resurrection onto eternal life to receive their crown of righteousness, so that we greet Christ at his second appearing, not as sinners but as sanctified by the Holy Spirit Saints.

Therefore the last day as far as a faithful is concerned is their last day and hour in their earthly bodies. The reaping of the harvest that began when the old messianic covenant era ended kick started the resurrection of the dead and that is why the outcry of the urgency to reap from the harvest before the time, time and half a time expires at the seventh trumpet call and the Spirit ensuring us that who ever faithful dies from now on, their works in the body will automatically and immediately follow them, meaning they will not wait for a 2000 years on the making resurrection of the dead but will be raised as Christ said on their last day.

very elaborate post and i commend you for your detail as i've noticed that you are well versed in the scriptures.

but i must say that we must include all of the prophecies that pertain to the end time (and there are a bunch)!

in matt 13, Jesus obviously gives us a synopsis of events to occur, but if we read the revelation, we glean even more details.

for example:

Matthew 13:40(NKJV)
40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

now if we read the revelation, john tells us when at the end of this age this takes place (rev 20:7)!

another example:

read rev 19:11-21, here john tells us about the second coming of Christ, but if we turn to zechariah 14, he provides more detail of the event (remember "here a little, there a little - isa 28:10).

again about the harvest, we have to keep in mind what the word "harvest" means:

har·vest [hahr-vist] (from Dictionary.com - Free Online English Dictionary)
noun
1.
Also, har·vest·ing. the gathering of crops.
2.
the season when ripened crops are gathered.
3.
a crop or yield of one growing season.
4.
a supply of anything gathered at maturity and stored: a harvest of wheat.
5.
the result or consequence of any act, process, or event: The journey yielded a harvest of wonderful memories.

this gathering of God's elect happens at the end of the age (matt 13:39), not sooner or later. so, the old testament saints will have to wait for this appointed time also, see jer 30:8-9, and notice the first sentence of verse 8.

so, the old testament saints have not been resurrected yet, gone to heaven, or nothing of the sort.

Revelation 1:5(NKJV)
5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

if we believe like most, then moses would have been "firstborn" from the dead, based on how most view the transfiguration!


that's why the term "the dead in Christ" is used in the bible. all who have died are still dead awaiting a resurrection!

this has to be true or else it would contradict what heb 11:39-40 says!

the ones from the old testament cannot be glorified apart from us!

 

[JohnRabbit]

I get enough respect by my family and community I live in, ie, they think I know something about God - boy are they deceived. I'll do a reverse, and have a high respect for you sir, ie, how's that? The 1,000 years in Rev.20 began at the Cross and end at Rev.20:7. There are "7" one endings of the world in Revelation, eg, all the visions are in, say, in sync.



All the saints from Adam forward entered heaven upon their passing, ie, no soul snoozing (only a head's up), and pretty much ruling with our Lord beyond our understanding now.



A little more happened at the Cross sir, ie, Satan bound by Michael where the 1st half of one resurrection has, and continues to take place.



Not trying to bug you, ie, just trying to bring in a little more clarity,

Old Jack

i understand, i'm enjoying the conversation.

i'd like to hear more about what happened at the cross.

read my post #77.

 

[shturt678s]

i understand, i'm enjoying the conversation.

i'd like to hear more about what happened at the cross.

read my post #77.

Jesus already defeated Satan at the last tempation, eg, Lk.11:21, 22 with a valid tertium in the illustration syllogistically. Jesus completely conquered Satan at the Cross, eg, Rev.12:7: Here the effect and result of the Savior's incarnation and His enthronement viewed together are portrayed symbolically. By his utter defeat (conquered) at the Cross lost his power of accusing "our brethren before God."

Old Jack yakking away

 

[JohnRabbit]

Jesus already defeated Satan at the last tempation, eg, Lk.11:21, 22 with a valid tertium in the illustration syllogistically. Jesus completely conquered Satan at the Cross, eg, Rev.12:7: Here the effect and result of the Savior's incarnation and His enthronement viewed together are portrayed symbolically. By his utter defeat (conquered) at the Cross lost his power of accusing "our brethren before God."

Old Jack yakking away

i see what you're saying now.

Jesus did conquer satan in the flesh, unlike us.

this however, does not explain the gap your scenario introduces vis a vie, the thousand years satan is to be put away.

it's been over one thousand years since that event and i have seen no evidence in history that satan's influence has not been present!

and again, after the thousand years the White Throne Judgment takes place, not to mention that the war took place in heaven (rev 12:7).

do you see how i'm having a problem with your scenario?