• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

I was reading something about...

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Tellyontellyon, Jul 31, 2021.

  1. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    I was reading something about Susan Atkins, she was one of the followers of Charles Manson.
    After murdering Sharon Tate, and her unborn baby, she went to prison for the rest of her life.
    While in prison she found God and became a Christian and helped many of the other prisoners.
    I'm not sure about Sharon Tate.... Do you think she will go to heaven? And what about the unborn baby....
    What about other children who were raped and murdered... How many of the kids end up in hell when their killers get a second chance to find God....

    These are extreme examples, but these things do happen. Hitler was evil, but how many of his victims can go to heaven... Their suffering will be increased beyond all imagination and will last forever... This seems very odd to me.

    I'm a Buddhist and used to the idea of Karma.... You plant a seed (an intentional act) and it ripens (happiness or suffering)..... mainly through conditioning how you perceive reality.

    ❤️ I find this a real stumbling block in seeing Christianity as reasonable and just. How do you reconcile this with your conscience?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

    +14,539
    United States
    Non-Denom
    In Relationship
    I don't know. That was a gruesome crime. I was a child when it happened.

    I remember watching the Patti Hearst story and seeing the things they did to her. I'm a mother. It hurt my soul. I can't fathom Manson and the others. That's my baby. My precious possession. My heart grieves for her family.

    It's too much Telly. I know my limits. :yellowheart:

    ~bella
     
  3. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,638
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    You seem to be operating on a few misapprehensions of what Christianity teaches —or at least of what the Bible says. Understand this: that logically, God would have no reason to even bother to create, if he was unjust. We can be sure he will be altogether just. Precisely just and thorough.
     
  4. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

    +7,908
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    What I remember is that God has more skin in that game than I do. God set up Hell and the parameters by which people will go there. Yet, he provided an amnesty plan for any who believe in Jesus and what he did, and who follow him to escape it.

    I do not know how many chances Sharon Tate got in her life to receive this. I do not know how many chances she or her children got in the last moments of their lives, or if there was one after death or not. If there was one after death, I believe it will be a fair chance - people who receive it wouldn't necessarily have an incredible advantage over those who had that chance in this life. Jesus preached to crowds on Earth and did miracles before them. Some believed and some did not. If there's a chance after this life, I believe it would be similar. But the Bible doesn't tell us for sure that this chance exists.

    It is just as well for us, because it is to motivate us to do our utmost with the chances that we are given to receive what Jesus has done for us, and to do what he has told us to do.

    As to fairness, none of this is really fair. Christianity is predicated on mercy, which by definition isn't fair. Is it also unfair that the children were thusly killed? Of course it is. Life isn't fair.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
  5. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

    +16,557
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    First I would say that it isn’t up to us to say who might be condemned. That judgement belongs to Christ alone. We can’t know a person’s heart or repentance (true or not).

    Secondly - God desires for all to be saved and is merciful. While some types of Christianity have a limited view of salvation, others trust in the ability of a merciful God to do as He wills. We trust in His mercy on the souls of infants and children - especially those who have been brutalized.

    It’s not as though His hands are tied by some cosmic law that is above His will.



     
  6. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,815
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Just by whose standard?
    You used the example of aborted babies. What intentional deeds had they done to deserve death?
    In reincarnation there is no conscious knowledge of a previous life so it is the deeds of an unknown person that rewards or punishes one! is that just?

    A perfect God with perfect knowledge of ones motives and deeds judges one. on what grounds can you object to his justice?

    Do you really obey in the spirit that your religious laws or is it just an outward show?
     
  7. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    Our lives are not determined my Karma, rather it conditions our lives, it doesn't take away free will or chance.
    That doesn't mean that a person might not have something bad happen to them because of karma, but only a Buddha can know really whether it is or not, or why.

    If a baby is stillborn, then it might be because of some really bad karma from a previous life, maybe even many lifetimes past... or it may not...
    The main effect of Karma is that we are born at all! All that are born will suffer and die, over and over again, and human rebirth is very rare anyway, mostly we are born in the lower realms.
    The point of Buddhism is to escape from cyclical existence and the suffering that entails.

    Edit... some people do remember previous lives... A Buddha remembers them all.

    Edit2... I find the idea of infinite punishment for a finite sin unfair.... Infinitely brutally unfair.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
  8. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    I never claimed I was above anybody.
     
  9. mmarco

    mmarco Member

    204
    +64
    Italy
    Catholic
    Married
    You must understand that God does not only knows all our past, present and futiure, but He also knows how each of us would have behaved if he had lived in any hypotetical situations; so God can judge also aborted babies because he perfectly knows who they would have become as adults.
     
  10. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    Why create the world at all then? Before time began, God would have known how things would have turned out, yet the world was created in full knowledge that he would be creating beings that would suffer beyond imagination for ever...
    That's... obscene... That's more than Jesus suffered... Jesus' suffering is not limitless... Those poor souls will suffer without limit.
    What mind can conjure up something so evil... merciless.
     
  11. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,815
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So what ever happens to us whether good or bad, may be because of our actions or it may not, because it is down to the actions of someother person who was us in previous lives.

    You object to the all knowing perfectly justice of God, but are happy for the injustice of karma!
     
  12. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,815
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I'm not saying yu are, just asking do you obey the letter of Buddhist laws or do you obey the spirit of those las.
    eg.
    the ten commandments says 'Do not Murder'.
    I'm sure you, like me have never murdered anyone, but have you ever thought, ' I hate you, I want you dead!' or similar thoughts? Jesus says this is equal to committing murder.
     
  13. mmarco

    mmarco Member

    204
    +64
    Italy
    Catholic
    Married
    God has chosen to create man with a free will, therefore He never creates souls in order to condemn them, but in order that they can freely choose. God wants to save all souls, but He respects man’s free will. If God saved us against our free will, He would destroy our essence of human beings. We are free to love Him or to reject Him. The souls who go to Hell are those who scorn God and do not want to be sanctified and live a holy life in heaven. God has always known since the beginning knows who are those will choose evil and will go to Hell, but this is not the purpose He creates them. God creates them because He wants to save as many souls as possible and the fear of damnation in Hell may have a role in man’s choice to abandon sin, expecially when he is still much involved in sin. This is the reason why God tells us that Hell exists and that many will go to Hell (see Matthew 7:13, for example); since God never lies, He created also the souls who will go to Hell. If God had not created the souls who will go to Hell, fewer souls would have gone to heaven because the fear of eternal damnation induces some souls to choose to cooperate with God's grace, so that God can save them. In conclusion, also the souls who will go to Hell , against their own intentions, have a positive role in the salvation of the souls, because through them, God can lead more souls to heaven.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him

    In ALL things (which implies also through the men who scorn God and choose evil) God works for the good of those who love Him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
  14. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    I don't know if karma is just? It simply is.

    But at least a stillborn child, or an aborted child, or a murdered child will quickly be born again in a few moments for another chance.
    There is no super-being in Buddhism who makes a just decision and no god made the rules. It is simply a matter of creating patterns in your mind that colour your future experiences.
    The root is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of reality, so we make decisions based on the misunderstanding... if we understood reality it wouldn't be a thing to act from lust, hatered, jealousy, greed, fear etc. The idea that you could take something from me, or me from you, literally would have no meaning... there is no 'me' or 'you' in the sense of individual beings, only a convenient fiction we use to negotiate our apparent 'reality.'
    The 'laws' of karma aren't fair, or just, it's just nature. If you act with selfishness then you act from a state of delusion. If you act with cruelty, then your delusion will become very cruel. If you act with kindness then your delusion will become very kind... But the Buddhist approach is to escape the delusion completely.
     
  15. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    Why create hell?... So more can go to heaven?.... What?
     
  16. mmarco

    mmarco Member

    204
    +64
    Italy
    Catholic
    Married
    Why are you asking what I have just explained?
     
  17. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    You didn't explain why God created hell in the first place. If he hasn't created hell, he wouldn't have to go through a process of trying to get people not to go there.
    In order for man to avoid choosing sin?
    But God has created this sin surely? He created the possibility for sin knowing many would fall into it.... It's a sick game... If this God exists then he's got the mentality of a schoolboy pulling legs off spiders.
    God wants us to love him out of free choice? (under threat of torture more like) I'm a jealous God! An angry God!
    In the Buddhist view there are gods, but they are deluded with pride and a false belief in immortality. Then there are the angry jealous demi-gods...
    From a Buddhist perspective the Biblical God is somewhat insane.
    I'm not saying this to put your religion down, I'm just pointing out how it looks from a Buddhist point of view. Jealousy, torture, human sacrifice to hide our sins from God in a pool of blood...
    I've got a long way to go before this makes any reasonable sense.
     
  18. mmarco

    mmarco Member

    204
    +64
    Italy
    Catholic
    Married
    Yes, I did: because the fear of eternal damnation induces some souls to repent and abandon sin.

    Wrong. The point is not of trying to get people not to go in Hell, but trying to induce people to repent and abandon sin, so that they can find the true life.


    Wrong; Sin is not a created entity; sin is every rejection of good.

    God has created man with a free will because otherwise we would have been simply like robots and I am grateful to God for creating me with a free will.
    Those who choose sin are fully responsible of their choices and of their sins; it is not God's responsibility.


    This God exists and you must repent of what you have just written, otherwise you will go to Hell.

    I think that a person who think what you have just written and spends so much time on a christian forum, is insane.
     
  19. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Active Member

    380
    +125
    United Kingdom
    Buddhist
    Married
    I began sincerely hoping to find something here, maybe even convert.... But it just isn't for me. It just doesn't resonate on a heart level, and the logic is often circular or lacking.
    I'm sure it serves many people well, and they are better people for it... I think there are many good Christians, made better through their encounter with Christ/Christianity.... But I find the reasoning behind the religion very strange.... Maybe it's good if you don't think about it too much and leave the understanding up to God?
    I really don't get the theology...
    From a Buddhist point of view you can indeed make it to heaven and avoid hell if you follow Christianity without being a hypocrite.... it just won't be forever.
     
  20. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +30,683
    Anglican
    Married
    It's a fundamental principle with Christians that God is just. It's also the case that we do not know everything about how he judges or, for that matter decides everything else.

    People often try to tease an answer from Scripture to every question we mortals ever will face in life, but that's not inherent in the religion, and the Bible itself states without equivocation that it's wrong to do.

    Will Sharon Tate wind up in heaven? Or her unborn child? We do not know. Do we need to know????? If so, why?
     
Loading...