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I was a Christian ... once. [moved from new member intros]

Spectrox War

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You're absolutely right. I did post here again after stating that I wouldn't post here again. Unfortunately, for all of my many talents, omniscience is not one of them. When I click on the User CP button to see who has replied to what post, it doesn't tell me what forum it's in. So my posting was strictly a mistake on my part.

Now, that having been said, I believe I've said all there is to say to you and all I would be doing at this point would be encouraging your childish insults and tantrums. So, with that in mind, I'm going to add you to my ignore list, as I don't believe any sort of edifying conversation is possible with you.

So there we have it folks! Eric wanted to edify me. The only thing I could learn from Eric is how to find brutalisation of another human being acceptable and how to be more dehumanised. He says his re-postings were a mistake. Maybe he was distracted? Maybe he's been beating that slave of his within an inch of his life? But as long as he gets up in a day or two, that's ok. Or maybe he has been planning to ethnically cleanse Florida?

For anyone still interested in this thread, feel free to read back over Eric's posts. His debate with Chris72 sums everything up beautifully. Chris produced the relevant quotes (which is more than I did - probably because I knew it would be a waste of my time) and gave a very clear, decent, humane argument about why slavery was wrong in Biblical times and has always been wrong. Even a child of five would have got it. Then examine the casual, easy manner with which Eric makes excuses and justification for what amounts to appalling treatment of other human beings. Still, like the war criminals at Nuremburg - he's just obeying orders. He's being entirely consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

You may think my responses are harsh. But unfortunately I think Eric's views and others like it should be challenged - strongly. Insidious evil happens when good men stand around doing nothing. So if I've upset Eric then I don't have any sympathy for him. In fact the smallest violin in the world just snapped between my fingers playing a sad tune for him.
 
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Palermo

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c) Unrealistic - it's full of far-fetched tall tales (talking snakes and talking donkeys) and the miracles I find absurd.

So you say the fairy tale that ''there was nothing and then,unreasonably,something in this dearthness blew up and all the things such as universe,animals,humans,planets,seas,sky,land etc have been made'' realistic or logical ?
 
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Spectrox War

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Hi Spectrox!

I've been reading through this thread and I have a few questions for you:

1) Describe in detail how you became a Christian. What made you decide to choose Christianity above all other faiths?

2) Did you go to church, and if so, what kind of church was it i.e., Catholic, Methodist, non-denominational, Ladder Day Saints, Unitarian, etc.?

3) How long did you explore Christianity until you decided it wasn't for you?

4) And were you ever baptized and/or make any public profession of faith?

At the risk of giving another Xian fundamentalist ammunition with which to invalidate my life experience, here is my story:

I was brought up Church of England. I was baptised as a baby and confirmed at age 14. I fell away from it all for a few years and then had what I can only describe as a spiritual crisis in my Twenties. This was when I became a born again Christian.
I was in a weird space in my life - I had low self-esteem, I felt my life was without purpose etc. I met some Christians and I liked them.

One particular night is forever etched on my memory. It was the night when Jesus entered my life and, to quote Eric, I was "regenerated, sanctified and saved." I felt all of it. Apart from regenerated perhaps - I'm not a Time Lord.

I started going to a Baptist Church and I thought the Pastor's sermons had real meaning. I liked the idea of ultimate justice and the warm glow of feeling saved was indescribably comforting. I read the Bible daily and got as much literature on the subject as I could. I had some questions that remained unanswered. But I was happy that God hadn't answered all my questions immediately. They would come I told myself. But they never did.

And I can remember reading one of the Gospels one day and I realised I just didn't believe it. It was totally unbelievable. A Christian recommended that I go to a Pentecostalist church to revive the spirit within me. But it had the opposite effect of what was desired. It was like being in an insane asylum. People talking in tongues and weeping and wailing.

I had long chats with one of my friends who was an ex-Christian. And I came to the conclusion that the Bible wasn't completely true. Why would God write a book that was only half correct? Surely it's easy for him to write something perfect if he can create the entire cosmos and keep that running? I prayed very hard. Again and again because I didn't want to lose that feeling I had experienced months earlier. But no-one listened because there was nobody there. I soon realised that when I was praying I was just talking to myself. It had all been for nothing. Perhaps the Buddhists were right? God was inside me not outside. I had deluded myself. The Bible was simply God in Man's image at the time. Not the other way around.

I then fell on top of a girl called Rachel and that was the end of Jesus and me.

Now Eric has dismissed my born again claim because it doesn't fit in with his narrow, distorted perception of reality. He thinks I was never saved. I heard this excuse a lot when I was deconverting. "You only had a religious experience not a born again experience". It's the worst kind of lie imaginable. In addition, I know 4 people very well who were devout Baptist Christians for years and they are now atheists. Are they phoney as well? How many people does Eric's God "properly" save? I suspect not very many. Is God making it deliberately difficult to believe or something? Which begs the question - why bother creating life at all?
 
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Spectrox War

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So you say the fairy tale that ''there was nothing and then,unreasonably,something in this dearthness blew up and all the things such as universe,animals,humans,planets,seas,sky,land etc have been made'' are realistic or logical ?

Science is based on hard self-corroborating evidence and the process of Post Axiomatic Justification (there's a long phrase for you). It tries to prove itself wrong through peer review. These are qualities that religious faith lacks.

I find the idea of complexity arising from simple states to be far more convincing than God creating complexity. For God to create the Universe, He would have to be at least as complex as the whole Universe is now. Where did this complexity originate?
 
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visionary

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I was once a Christian. I believed I was saved and that Jesus loved me. I began to question my faith. I found that there were things that were wrong in the Bible. I believed that all my questions would be answered by God eventually. But no answers came. My faith began to crumble as I realised that I had no rational justification for believing in any of it.

I feel that Christianity is wrong from various standpoints - moral, logical & scientific. I can't prove that God doesn't exist but I'm fairly sure he doesn't because all the evidence points towards atheism being correct.
Studying the Word is to lead you to Him... but meeting Him is the only real thing.
 
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Palermo

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Science is based on hard self-corroborating evidence and the process of Post Axiomatic Justification (there's a long phrase for you). It tries to prove itself wrong through peer review. These are qualities that religious faith lacks.

I find the idea of complexity arising from simple states to be far more convincing than God creating complexity. For God to create the Universe, He would have to be at least as complex as the whole Universe is now. Where did this complexity originate?

So how do you know that these ''proofs'' claimed by science and scientists are true ? you dont know for sure,u just have faith in what scientists say in magazines or books.
i think when you will answer the questions ''why you believe that the scientic ''proofs'' are true and infallible ? why you believe that earth is really 4 billions year old? why you believe that everything have made by an absolute ''nothingness'' even its too illogical'' you will automatically get the answer of your question ''why you believe that christianity and bible is true''
 
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Dear Spectrox War. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments: " Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: Love our neighbour as ourselves." Then Jesus states this Fact: " On these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Straightforward and easy to remember. Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40. God made us in His image, we are the only Beings in the Universe who know the difference between Good, and NOT Good. We are in this world to learn to love as God wants us to love, and I ask this with love: What is Unchristian about Love?? Selfless and no conditions asked. God is Love and Jesus our Saviour is Love and what is wrong with love? Love is a Christian`s weapon to overcome all enmity, and wrong or evil designs. It is not too late for anybody to join the happy throng, Christianity is a loving relationship with our Saviour, and He will lead us back to where we came from. We have to " Repent," to become the loving children/sons and daughters which God wants us to be. God does not force us in any way, we choose to follow Jesus back to God, OR we go our own way, the choice is ours. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
 
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Spectrox War

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So how do you know that these ''proofs'' claimed by science and scientists are true ? you dont know for sure,u just have faith in what scientists say in magazines or books.
i think when you will answer the questions ''why you believe that the scientic ''proofs'' are true and infallible ? why you believe that earth is really 4 billions year old? why you believe that everything have made by an absolute ''nothingness'' even its too illogical'' you will automatically get the answer of your question ''why you believe that christianity and bible is true''

There is no faith in science. It all comes down to tangible evidence.
To get started you can look up "Evidence for common descent" on Wikipedia. This will lead you on to other articles about how we know the Earth is a lot older than 6,000 years. But be warned, evolution is a vast subject, as might be expected. Don't stop there though. Do your own research and literature searches. Try and prove it wrong. Less than 0.2% of professional biologists and geneticists accept creation instead of evolution to explain the diversity of species over long time scales. The wikipedia article touches on the following topics:




 
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Spectrox War

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So you say the fairy tale that ''there was nothing and then,unreasonably,something in this dearthness blew up and all the things such as universe,animals,humans,planets,seas,sky,land etc have been made'' realistic or logical ?

How do you know you've got the right God?

Let us say for the sake of argument that there are 4 major world religions.
At least 3 of them have got to be wrong.

Let's say it's your last day on Earth. You're on your death bed and take your last breath.
All of a sudden you're travelling down a tunnel towards the light and there infront of you are the 4 Gods representing the major world religions. Yahweh, Christ, Allah and the Hindu God, Vishnu.

You recognise your God - the one you've devoted your entire life to. You're so happy to see your God and you go up to him and say "I choose you. I want to be with you for the whole of eternity."

Your God then produces a piece of card from beneath his cape and on it is written the word "BLUFF!"

Ouch!!! That's gonna hurt in the morning.
 
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Spectrox War

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Dear Spectrox War. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments: " Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: Love our neighbour as ourselves." Then Jesus states this Fact: " On these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Straightforward and easy to remember. Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40. God made us in His image, we are the only Beings in the Universe who know the difference between Good, and NOT Good. We are in this world to learn to love as God wants us to love, and I ask this with love: What is Unchristian about Love?? Selfless and no conditions asked. God is Love and Jesus our Saviour is Love and what is wrong with love? Love is a Christian`s weapon to overcome all enmity, and wrong or evil designs. It is not too late for anybody to join the happy throng, Christianity is a loving relationship with our Saviour, and He will lead us back to where we came from. We have to " Repent," to become the loving children/sons and daughters which God wants us to be. God does not force us in any way, we choose to follow Jesus back to God, OR we go our own way, the choice is ours. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Emmy - I don't have that much of a problem with much of Jesus' teachings. I especially like his saving the adultress from being stoned to death, driving out the bankers from the Temple and challenging the piety of the Pharisees. I also like his Sermon on the Mount speech - one of the greatest ancient speeches ever written. Unfortunately it doesn't end there. There is a very sinister side to the Bible as a whole and some extremely dodgy passages which I couldn't justify morally or scientifically. You've probably read my critique when arguing with Eric Hilbert.

I think your idea of God not forcing us in any way is naive and un-Biblical. What do you believe happens to someone who chooses to go their own way?
 
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Spectrox War

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Studying the Word is to lead you to Him... but meeting Him is the only real thing.

I've never met him in the flesh. He died before I was born. But I believed I "met" Jesus through the Bible. I was convinced that I was filled with The Holy Spirit or words to that effect. But I eventually realised that I just went a bit barking mad.
 
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Harry3142

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Spectrox War-

I suspect that you are not going into detail to support your claims concerning Judaism, Christianity, and Holy Writ because the atheistic party line that you are quoting doesn't go that much into detail. And so far that's all I've seen, namely, the same arguments word-for-word that atheists have used to rationalize their own refusal to believe since I first debated them in 1963. There is nothing original in your arguments; it's all 'canned'.

As for my personal belief, I am a Christian. I agree that there are four resurrection stories, but I see that as evidence for its actually having occurred, rather than that it didn't. If all four resurrection stories explained the resurrection with the exact same wording, but supposedly told by four different people, then I would be suspicious of it. In a court of law an attorney may challenge the testimony of all witnesses who use the same words concerning what they have witnessed. They call that 'collusion' (the coming together of witnesses beforehand in order to come up with an identical story concerning the events supposedly witnessed), and evidence of it is enough to throw an entire case out of court.

As for various actions which God has found it necessary to do, or order done, I recognize him as a king, not an elected official that must answer to us. He has compassion, but that must not be confused with sentimentalism. He forgives freely, but that must not be confused with condonement. It is not for him to acquiesce to our will; it is for us to acquiesce to his.

God's deciding that it was necessary that there be an atonement for our sinfulness tells me the seriousness with which he regards our shortcomings. He could just as easily have written us off, but he chose to rescue us from our own base natures. Since a perfect rescue cannot use imperfect beings, he sent his own Son to carry out his mission, for only Jesus Christ was capable of bridging the gap between our sinfulness and God's own perfection. He who was perfect became the epitome of sin, and paid the price for it, so that those who were lost in our sins could attain the righteousness which only Jesus Christ had in-and-of himself.

You may choose to believe what you wish to believe; that is your right. But I will continue to believe that a being we call God chose to save us from the results of our own actions, and then did so through his Son Jesus Christ. So I put my trust in what God has already done on my behalf, rather than putting my trust in whatever deeds I might do in the present and future.
 
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Spectrox War

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Spectrox War-

I suspect that you are not going into detail to support your claims concerning Judaism, Christianity, and Holy Writ because the atheistic party line that you are quoting doesn't go that much into detail. And so far that's all I've seen, namely, the same arguments word-for-word that atheists have used to rationalize their own refusal to believe since I first debated them in 1963. There is nothing original in your arguments; it's all 'canned'.

As for my personal belief, I am a Christian. I agree that there are four resurrection stories, but I see that as evidence for its actually having occurred, rather than that it didn't. If all four resurrection stories explained the resurrection with the exact same wording, but supposedly told by four different people, then I would be suspicious of it. In a court of law an attorney may challenge the testimony of all witnesses who use the same words concerning what they have witnessed. They call that 'collusion' (the coming together of witnesses beforehand in order to come up with an identical story concerning the events supposedly witnessed), and evidence of it is enough to throw an entire case out of court.

As for various actions which God has found it necessary to do, or order done, I recognize him as a king, not an elected official that must answer to us. He has compassion, but that must not be confused with sentimentalism. He forgives freely, but that must not be confused with condonement. It is not for him to acquiesce to our will; it is for us to acquiesce to his.

God's deciding that it was necessary that there be an atonement for our sinfulness tells me the seriousness with which he regards our shortcomings. He could just as easily have written us off, but he chose to rescue us from our own base natures. Since a perfect rescue cannot use imperfect beings, he sent his own Son to carry out his mission, for only Jesus Christ was capable of bridging the gap between our sinfulness and God's own perfection. He who was perfect became the epitome of sin, and paid the price for it, so that those who were lost in our sins could attain the righteousness which only Jesus Christ had in-and-of himself.

You may choose to believe what you wish to believe; that is your right. But I will continue to believe that a being we call God chose to save us from the results of our own actions, and then did so through his Son Jesus Christ. So I put my trust in what God has already done on my behalf, rather than putting my trust in whatever deeds I might do in the present and future.

Not going into detail? Have you not seen how much I have written? What do you want on this forum - a Thesis? This is about Christians wanting to shift the burden of proof. I have gone a great deal further than most atheists in my capacity as an ex-Christian to explain why I think the Bible provides good evidence that it is scientifically inaccurate and in places morally bankrupt. In fact, I would say that every person on this forum (with the possible exception of Eric Hilbert) is morally superior to the God of the Bible. It's not the Good Book. In places it is positively obscene.

And why does God decide to write 4 accounts of the most important message in history? Why would the writing of a book be the best method to communicate this message anyway? What's wrong with telepathy?

Why do you recognise the God of the Bible as King? If you can't explain that then the rest of what you said is just brainwashed regurgitation.
 
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Palermo

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There is no faith in science. It all comes down to tangible evidence.
To get started you can look up "Evidence for common descent" on Wikipedia. This will lead you on to other articles about how we know the Earth is a lot older than 6,000 years. But be warned, evolution is a vast subject, as might be expected. Don't stop there though. Do your own research and literature searches. Try and prove it wrong. Less than 0.2% of professional biologists and geneticists accept creation instead of evolution to explain the diversity of species over long time scales. The wikipedia article touches on the following topics:





first,i would like you to prove that less than 0,2% of biologists and genetistics supports creationism.i also want to remind that no internal human fossils discovered.
but main idea im trying to explain here is that how you can be so sure that science is infallible and true,you say ''but there is evidences'' well humans were believing that earth was flat and thinkin in the same way ''but its proven'' i mean it seems foolish to lean on human-made fallible things such as science,in which one thing is a ''proven fact'' today and a ''mistake'' tomorrow.
 
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Spectrox War

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first,i would like you to prove that less than 0,2% of biologists and genetistics supports creationism.i also want to remind that no internal human fossils discovered.
but main idea im trying to explain here is that how you can be so sure that science is infallible and true,you say ''but there is evidences'' well humans were believing that earth was flat and thinkin in the same way ''but its proven'' i mean it seems foolish to lean on human-made fallible things such as science,in which one thing is a ''proven fact'' today and a ''mistake'' tomorrow.

What do you mean by "no internal human fossils?" What exactly are australopithecines, homo habilis, homo erectus etc.? They have ape-like features and human-like features. They may not be our direct ancestors but they may be off-shoots from the human family tree.

Below is a collection of frequently asked questions and answers about the compatibility of belief in evolution and God from TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy. This text presupposes the reader's belief in the Judeo-Christian God, but many answers are general enough to include most religions. There is no attempt to prove or disprove the existence of God, or the validity of any religion, as that is not the intent.

1. Definitions

Science A method of determine how the universe works by use of the scientific method. Scientific method The process of proposing a hypothesis, and then testing its accuracy by collecting data on events the hypothesis predicts. If the predictions match the new data the hypothesis is supported. Generally the best supported hypothesis is considered correct. Evolution The fact the frequency of the apperance of alleles in a population of organisms changes over time. Allele The pieces of DNA that cause a particular trait, ie. "blue eyes". The theory of evolution A number of theories that explain, to the best of current knowledge, by what mechanisms evolution occurs. The theory of common descent The theory that all living creatures on earth share a common, remote ancestor. More specifically, given any two living creatures there was a creature that is ancestor to both. Creationism One of several beliefs that incorporate a literal interpretation of Genesis. There are variations that allow some figurative interpretation. Young Earth Creationism An interpretation of Genesis 1 in which days are taken to be 24 hour events, and that by saying animals reproduce "after their kind" evolution is precluded. Old Earth Creationism An interpretation of Genesis 1 in which days are taken to be figurative lengths of time, and the time scales given by geologists are generally correct. However, the special creation of man precludes common descent. Theistic Evolution An interpretation of Genesis 1 in which the story line is considered as an explanation for the why and who of creation, but not the exact method. The purpose of this FAQ is to show that this position is not contradictory. 2. Evolution and Religion

Q1. Doesn't evolution contradict religion?
Not always. Certainly it contradicts a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis, but evolution is a scientific principle, like gravity or electricity. To scientifically test a religious belief one first must find some empirical test that gives different results depending on whether the belief is true or false. These results must be predicted before hand, not pointed to after the fact. Most religious beliefs don't work this way. Religion usually presupposes a driving intelligence behind it, and an intelligent being is not always predictable. Since experiments judging religious beliefs cannot have predictable results, and may give different results under the same circumstances it is not open to scientific inquiry. St. Augustine commented on this in _The Literal Meaning of Genesis_.
Some religious beliefs do make predictions. These predictions can be tested. If a religious belief fails a test, it is the test that contradicts that religious belief. The theory which makes the correct prediction should have nothing to say on the matter. This does not mean that scientists don't sometimes make the mistake of saying a theory contradicts something.

Q2. Isn't evolution a religion?
Evolution is based on the scientific method. There are tests that can determine whether or not the theory is correct as it stands, and these tests can be made. Thousands of such tests have been made, and the current theories have passed them all. Also, scientists are willing to alter the theories as soon as new evidence is discovered. This allows the theories to become more and more accurate as research progresses. Most religions, on the other hand, are based on revelations, that usually cannot be objectively verified. They talk about the why, not the how. Also, religious beliefs are not subject to change as easily as scientific beliefs. Finally, a religion normally claims an exact accuracy, something which scientists know they may never achieve.
Some people build up religious beliefs around scientific principles, but then it is their beliefs which are the religion. This no more makes scientific knowledge a religion than painting a brick makes it a bar of gold.
So the answer is no, evolution is no more a religion than any other scientific theory.

Q3. Does evolution contradict creationism?
There are two parts to creationism. Evolution, specifically common descent, tells us how life came to where it is, but it does not say why. If the question is whether evolution disproves the basic underlying theme of Genesis, that God created the world and the life in it, the answer is no. Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did. If the question is whether evolution contradicts a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis as an exact historical account, then it does. This is the main, and for the most part only, point of conflict between those who believe in evolution and creationists.

Q4. If evolution is true, then isn't the whole Bible wrong?
First let me repeat that the underlying theme of the first book of Genesis can't be scientifically proven or disproven. No test has ever been found that can tell the difference between a universe created by God, and one that appeared without Him. Only certain interpretations of Genesis can be disproven. Second, let us turn the question around. What if I asked you "If the story of the prodigal son didn't really happen, then is the whole Bible wrong?" Remember that the Bible is a collection of both stories and historical accounts. Because one part is a figurative story does not make the entire Bible so. Even if it did, the underlying message of the Bible would remain.
3. Evolution and God

Q5. Does evolution deny the existence of God?
No. See question 1. There is no reason to believe that God was not a guiding force behind evolution. While it does contradict some specific interpretations of God, especially ones requiring a literal interpretation of Genesis 1, few people have this narrow of a view of God. There are many people who believe in the existence of God and in evolution. Common descent then describes the process used by God. Until the discovery of a test to separate chance and God this interpretation is a valid one within evolution.

Q6. But isn't this Deism, the belief that God set the universe in motion and walked away?
While it could be Deism, the Bible speaks more of an active God, one who is frequently intervening in His creation. If the Bible represents such a God in historical times there is no reason to assume that He was not active in the universe before then. A guiding hand in evolution could exist, even in the time before humans came around. Just because people were not there to observe does not mean that there was nothing to observe.
Q7. So if God directed evolution, why not just say he created everything at once?
Mainly because all the evidence suggests otherwise. If God created the universe suddenly, he created it in a state that is indistinguishable from true age. If he did create it that way there must be a reason, otherwise God is a liar. Whatever that reason may be, a universe that is exactly like one that is old should be treated as if it were old.
Q8. By denying creation, aren't you denying God's power to create?
No. Because God did not create the world in seven days does not mean that he couldn't. What did, or did not, happen is not an indication of what could, or could not, have happened. All evidence suggests that evolution is the way things happened. Regardless of what could have happened, the evidence would still point to evolution. 4. Evolution and Proof

Q9. Nobody can really prove anything anyway.
Except, of course, in mathematics. However, science does not require absolute proof, otherwise science textbooks would be empty. Science works by use of the scientific method: explanations are found, and tests made to tell which ones are correct. Evolution has passed thousands of tests, many of which separated it from theories indistinguishable to non-biologists. Few people are aware, for instance, that Darwin's original hypothesis predicted the existence of genetic information. As said before, even if the theory is not correct in every detail, it is very close to the truth. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

Q10. Theories have been proven wrong in the past, why not evolution?
When Einstein proposed general relativity, he revolutionized physics. The theory replaced most of Newton's laws of physics. General relativity, though, still incorporates Newton's laws. This is due to the enormous number of observations and tests that Newton's laws had passed, so any new theory would have to account for them also. Similarly, if another theory replaces evolution, the new theory must somehow explain why the current theory passed all the tests. So any new theory that replaces evolution would have to explain why it works so well. Creationism, then, is not a possible replacement.

Q11. Doesn't evolution promote evil?
Even if evolution did do this, it would not be a reason to assume it is wrong. Chemistry is responsible for millions of deaths every year, but we do not reject its findings because of this. How people use a theory is not a judgment of its accuracy. Fortunately we do not face this dilemma. Evolution does not say what is right and what is wrong, but merely what has happened. A historical account of the sacking of Rome does not say that the act of sacking Rome is good or bad, just that it happened. Similarly evolution does not say that any conclusions people might draw from it are good or bad.
While many people have claimed the theory of evolution supports their injustice, never forget that many people have done the same with the Bible. One person's opinion should not be considered the whole truth.

Q12. So what would I need to have creationism accepted scientifically?
You need to propose a test that would give different results depending on whether creation or evolution is true. Most important, however, is the willingness to abide by the results, even if they disprove creationism.
 
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What do you mean by "no internal human fossils?" What exactly are australopithecines, homo habilis, homo erectus etc.? They have ape-like features and human-like features. They may not be our direct ancestors but they may be off-shoots from the human family tree.

Below is a collection of frequently asked questions and answers about the compatibility of belief in evolution and God from TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy. This text presupposes the reader's belief in the Judeo-Christian God, but many answers are general enough to include most religions. There is no attempt to prove or disprove the existence of God, or the validity of any religion, as that is not the intent.

1. Definitions

Science A method of determine how the universe works by use of the scientific method. Scientific method The process of proposing a hypothesis, and then testing its accuracy by collecting data on events the hypothesis predicts. If the predictions match the new data the hypothesis is supported. Generally the best supported hypothesis is considered correct. Evolution The fact the frequency of the apperance of alleles in a population of organisms changes over time. Allele The pieces of DNA that cause a particular trait, ie. "blue eyes". The theory of evolution A number of theories that explain, to the best of current knowledge, by what mechanisms evolution occurs. The theory of common descent The theory that all living creatures on earth share a common, remote ancestor. More specifically, given any two living creatures there was a creature that is ancestor to both. Creationism One of several beliefs that incorporate a literal interpretation of Genesis. There are variations that allow some figurative interpretation. Young Earth Creationism An interpretation of Genesis 1 in which days are taken to be 24 hour events, and that by saying animals reproduce "after their kind" evolution is precluded. Old Earth Creationism An interpretation of Genesis 1 in which days are taken to be figurative lengths of time, and the time scales given by geologists are generally correct. However, the special creation of man precludes common descent. Theistic Evolution An interpretation of Genesis 1 in which the story line is considered as an explanation for the why and who of creation, but not the exact method. The purpose of this FAQ is to show that this position is not contradictory. 2. Evolution and Religion

Q1. Doesn't evolution contradict religion?
Not always. Certainly it contradicts a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis, but evolution is a scientific principle, like gravity or electricity. To scientifically test a religious belief one first must find some empirical test that gives different results depending on whether the belief is true or false. These results must be predicted before hand, not pointed to after the fact. Most religious beliefs don't work this way. Religion usually presupposes a driving intelligence behind it, and an intelligent being is not always predictable. Since experiments judging religious beliefs cannot have predictable results, and may give different results under the same circumstances it is not open to scientific inquiry. St. Augustine commented on this in _The Literal Meaning of Genesis_.
Some religious beliefs do make predictions. These predictions can be tested. If a religious belief fails a test, it is the test that contradicts that religious belief. The theory which makes the correct prediction should have nothing to say on the matter. This does not mean that scientists don't sometimes make the mistake of saying a theory contradicts something.

Q2. Isn't evolution a religion?
Evolution is based on the scientific method. There are tests that can determine whether or not the theory is correct as it stands, and these tests can be made. Thousands of such tests have been made, and the current theories have passed them all. Also, scientists are willing to alter the theories as soon as new evidence is discovered. This allows the theories to become more and more accurate as research progresses. Most religions, on the other hand, are based on revelations, that usually cannot be objectively verified. They talk about the why, not the how. Also, religious beliefs are not subject to change as easily as scientific beliefs. Finally, a religion normally claims an exact accuracy, something which scientists know they may never achieve.
Some people build up religious beliefs around scientific principles, but then it is their beliefs which are the religion. This no more makes scientific knowledge a religion than painting a brick makes it a bar of gold.
So the answer is no, evolution is no more a religion than any other scientific theory.

Q3. Does evolution contradict creationism?
There are two parts to creationism. Evolution, specifically common descent, tells us how life came to where it is, but it does not say why. If the question is whether evolution disproves the basic underlying theme of Genesis, that God created the world and the life in it, the answer is no. Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did. If the question is whether evolution contradicts a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis as an exact historical account, then it does. This is the main, and for the most part only, point of conflict between those who believe in evolution and creationists.

Q4. If evolution is true, then isn't the whole Bible wrong?
First let me repeat that the underlying theme of the first book of Genesis can't be scientifically proven or disproven. No test has ever been found that can tell the difference between a universe created by God, and one that appeared without Him. Only certain interpretations of Genesis can be disproven. Second, let us turn the question around. What if I asked you "If the story of the prodigal son didn't really happen, then is the whole Bible wrong?" Remember that the Bible is a collection of both stories and historical accounts. Because one part is a figurative story does not make the entire Bible so. Even if it did, the underlying message of the Bible would remain.
3. Evolution and God

Q5. Does evolution deny the existence of God?
No. See question 1. There is no reason to believe that God was not a guiding force behind evolution. While it does contradict some specific interpretations of God, especially ones requiring a literal interpretation of Genesis 1, few people have this narrow of a view of God. There are many people who believe in the existence of God and in evolution. Common descent then describes the process used by God. Until the discovery of a test to separate chance and God this interpretation is a valid one within evolution.

Q6. But isn't this Deism, the belief that God set the universe in motion and walked away?
While it could be Deism, the Bible speaks more of an active God, one who is frequently intervening in His creation. If the Bible represents such a God in historical times there is no reason to assume that He was not active in the universe before then. A guiding hand in evolution could exist, even in the time before humans came around. Just because people were not there to observe does not mean that there was nothing to observe.
Q7. So if God directed evolution, why not just say he created everything at once?
Mainly because all the evidence suggests otherwise. If God created the universe suddenly, he created it in a state that is indistinguishable from true age. If he did create it that way there must be a reason, otherwise God is a liar. Whatever that reason may be, a universe that is exactly like one that is old should be treated as if it were old.
Q8. By denying creation, aren't you denying God's power to create?
No. Because God did not create the world in seven days does not mean that he couldn't. What did, or did not, happen is not an indication of what could, or could not, have happened. All evidence suggests that evolution is the way things happened. Regardless of what could have happened, the evidence would still point to evolution. 4. Evolution and Proof

Q9. Nobody can really prove anything anyway.
Except, of course, in mathematics. However, science does not require absolute proof, otherwise science textbooks would be empty. Science works by use of the scientific method: explanations are found, and tests made to tell which ones are correct. Evolution has passed thousands of tests, many of which separated it from theories indistinguishable to non-biologists. Few people are aware, for instance, that Darwin's original hypothesis predicted the existence of genetic information. As said before, even if the theory is not correct in every detail, it is very close to the truth.

Q10. Theories have been proven wrong in the past, why not evolution?
When Einstein proposed general relativity, he revolutionized physics. The theory replaced most of Newton's laws of physics. General relativity, though, still incorporates Newton's laws. This is due to the enormous number of observations and tests that Newton's laws had passed, so any new theory would have to account for them also. Similarly, if another theory replaces evolution, the new theory must somehow explain why the current theory passed all the tests. So any new theory that replaces evolution would have to explain why it works so well. Creationism, then, is not a possible replacement.

Q11. Doesn't evolution promote evil?
Even if evolution did do this, it would not be a reason to assume it is wrong. Chemistry is responsible for millions of deaths every year, but we do not reject its findings because of this. How people use a theory is not a judgment of its accuracy. Fortunately we do not face this dilemma. Evolution does not say what is right and what is wrong, but merely what has happened. A historical account of the sacking of Rome does not say that the act of sacking Rome is good or bad, just that it happened. Similarly evolution does not say that any conclusions people might draw from it are good or bad.
While many people have claimed the theory of evolution supports their injustice, never forget that many people have done the same with the Bible. One person's opinion should not be considered the whole truth.

Q12. So what would I need to have creationism accepted scientifically?
You need to propose a test that would give different results depending on whether creation or evolution is true. Most important, however, is the willingness to abide by the results, even if they disprove creationism.

İ dont know why u posted the FAQ of that website but i think this website contains answers for your questions Root - Answers in Genesis

1 Timothy 6
20 guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
 
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mrmccormo

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OP, you've adopted a new belief system, and with it, you've adopted new norms, new values, and new ways of looking at things. Since you've come out of a Christian environment, you might think that you've "been there", therefore you understand it enough to draw conclusions. But would it be fair to admit that you might be wrong? Sure, you might have sincerely seen all that Christianity has to offer. But just as likely, you could have missed the big picture.

Ultimately, you've simply shifted your faith to a different person (or persons). You say that you no longer believe in God. That's fine, but now you believe in people, people you've never met, people who have never proved their stance, people who have never done a single thing for you. No biggie. You say that you no longer believe in the Bible. That's fine, but now you believe in your own Bible: a Bible contructed from various books, online articles, and conversations you've had with people. No biggie.

You can believe what you want. You don't have to believe in Christianity, but you are doing yourself a disservice if you actually think you've moved away from "belief" into something more rational. You're still exercising blind faith by trusting in your rationalism. Rationalism (or reductionism, or whatever related -ism you hold) fails all of the same tests that you feel Christianity has failed. It has not been externally verified, it cannot be proven to be the "best" form of logic, and it has internal inconsistencies.

You can trust in scientific studies that you yourself have not verified, and you can trust in people you've never met, and you can trust in arguments you've never dissected, and you can trust in information you've never been able to personally affirm as true. This applies equally to Christianity and Atheism and any other sort of belief system.

I'm glad that you still have just as much belief now as you did when you were a Christian! I'm just sad that you've placed it elsewhere.
 
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Harry3142

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Spectrox War-

Let's talk science, since you claim that it is perfect. A few years ago one of our satellites took the photograph of a meteor crater which measured 53 miles in diameter. This meteor crater has been dated to 35 million years ago. It's located under Chesapeake Bay, on the east coast of the USA. This was initially declared by scientists to have been another extinction level event.

Then the random evolution apologists stepped in. Because this meteor strike had left visible evidence that could not be refuted, they could not deny that it had happened. But instead of recognizing it as another ELE, thus cutting in half the time period which they had originally claimed was necessary for us to have developed, they claimed it was 'a big splash', and nothing more, even though Chesapeaks Bay is less than 300 feet deep. Even other scientists have said that the ambient heat which radiated from that meteor would have evaporated all the water ahead of it before it reached the surface of that bay, making it a meteor that struck bedrock, not water.

Again, according to scientists, there have been at least 2 supervolcanic eruptions which have occurred within the past 640,000 years. Yellowstone erupted circa 640,000 years ago, and Mt.Toba, located in Sumatra, erupted 70,000 years ago. In both cases scientists themselves state that the resultant ash and sulphuric gas cloud reached the outermost layer of this planet's atmosphere, enveloping it in a blanket that deflected sunlight for years. As a consequence of this, the entire planet's temperature dropped to that of a presentday walk-in freezer, and remained there year-round for years, if not decades.

But the evolutionists claim that we survived this catastrophe at a time when they also claim we had not even mastered the use of fire. And what was the reason which all of them gave for our having survived years of well below freezing temperatures? Their argument was that if we hadn't, the theory of evolution could not be accepted as fact without outside intervention (intelligent design) augmenting it.

That's called a circular argument. To formulate a theory, then be presented with facts that offset that theory as proposed, would cause the theory to be seriously reexamined if purely scientific principles were applied. For people who claim to be scientists to state that what we all know to be unsurvivable was survived, but offer as their only evidence for its having been survived that the theory of evolution as they have taught it would no longer be valid if it had not been survived, is not science; it's idolatry. Instead of worshipping Ba'al or Zeus, they're simply worshipping a theory. It brings idolatry to the 21st century, but it's still idolatry.

In the twentieth century we saw the difference between the humanistic eutopia which some claimed that we could build for ourselves, and the reality of what happens to nations who choose to either turn their backs on God or reduce his influence to that of an icon supporting the dictates of their leaders. Instead of eutopia, we had Russia under first Lenin, then Stalin; we had Germany under Adolph Hitler; we had Cambodia under Pol Pot; we had Iraq under Saddam Hussein; we had China under Chairman Mao Tse-Tung. These are not coincidences. It has been known for centuries that the society which denies God his rightful place soon becomes a horror to itself and all around it:

The attempt made in recent decades by secularist thinkers to disengage [the moral principles of Western civilization] from their [scripturally based] religious context, in the assurance that they could live a life of their own as a "humanistic" ethic, has resulted in what one writer has called our "cut-flower culture." Cut flowers retain their original beauty and fragrance, but only so long as they retain the vitality that they have drawn from their now severed roots; after that is exhausted, they wither and die. So with freedom, brotherhood, justice, and personal dignity - the values that form the moral foundation of our civilization. Without the life-giving power of the faith out of which they have sprung, they possess neither meaning nor vitality. Morality ungrounded in God is indeed a house built upon sand, unable to stand up against the vagaries of impulse and the brutal pressures of power and self-interest. (Judaism and Modern Man, Will Herberg, pages 91-92, as quoted in Jewish Wisdom, by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, page 291)

As for Christians' refusal to approve of homosexuality, you will get no apology for our 'sticking to our guns' on that issue. The marriage bed is sacred, and is to remain so. Sexual immorality and impurity will not be countenanced. If that hurts some feelings, then that is a price that they must pay for their lifestyle.

We have a code of conduct which we are to live by, and as Christians we accept that code as both valid and pertinent to every aspect of our daily existence. This passage describes that code of conduct:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

That is the code of sonduct which we as Christians have accepted as what we are to live by, and those who would have us reject that code are themselves rejected by us. We will not replace it with some 'humanistic' code that approves of what we know must never be approved of. If that makes us obstinate, then so be it. We will continue to be obstinate, and will be equally as obstinate with whatever code replaces the current one.

BTW, as for your argument's being detailed, I read more detail in the argument written by an 18-year old a few years ago than I have read in all your messages put together. That's why I still say your argument looks 'canned'.
 
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Spectrox War

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İ dont know why u posted the FAQ of that website but i think this website contains answers for your questions Root - Answers in Genesis

1 Timothy 6
20 guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.

I have just looked at Answers in Genesis and it is an insult to my intelligence. It states in one section

"As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years."

It then goes on to say that dinosaurs died during the Flood (clearly Noah couldn't take Brontosauruses on board). If you truly believe all this then you have fallen for the dumbest bit of pseudo-science ever.

Fossils are found in sedimentary rock layers - layers upon layers hundreds of meters in depth. How long do you think that took to sediment, be covered over and compressed to form solid rock? Radiometric Potassium-Argon dating has been done on these rocks and fossils for decades and the more evidence that is accumulated, the greater degree of certainty about the result. Rock ages can be dated to within plus or minus 1% according to statistical error. Even if that was spectacularly wrong, dinosaurs would have existed hundreds of thousands of years ago, not a few thousand.

If Answers in Genesis was correct, there would be evidence of dinosaur fossils right alongside human fossils or in the same rock stratum level. This never happens. Ever. If human remains were found alongside a TRex, the entire theory of evolution could be proved wrong. So if I were you, I'd get digging!

But of course you must turn away from Godless chatter, just in case it's right.

In our lives, we rely entirely on the scientific method - modern medicine, transport, your computer. All of this has been made possible by science. And yet when it comes to the most important question - what is the true meaning of life? - we have to abandon it in favour of blind faith in spite of the evidence.

I say to you again - how do you know you have the right God? There are several to choose from depending on where you live in this world.
 
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Spectrox War

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OP, you've adopted a new belief system, and with it, you've adopted new norms, new values, and new ways of looking at things. Since you've come out of a Christian environment, you might think that you've "been there", therefore you understand it enough to draw conclusions. But would it be fair to admit that you might be wrong? Sure, you might have sincerely seen all that Christianity has to offer. But just as likely, you could have missed the big picture.

Ultimately, you've simply shifted your faith to a different person (or persons). You say that you no longer believe in God. That's fine, but now you believe in people, people you've never met, people who have never proved their stance, people who have never done a single thing for you. No biggie. You say that you no longer believe in the Bible. That's fine, but now you believe in your own Bible: a Bible contructed from various books, online articles, and conversations you've had with people. No biggie.

You can believe what you want. You don't have to believe in Christianity, but you are doing yourself a disservice if you actually think you've moved away from "belief" into something more rational. You're still exercising blind faith by trusting in your rationalism. Rationalism (or reductionism, or whatever related -ism you hold) fails all of the same tests that you feel Christianity has failed. It has not been externally verified, it cannot be proven to be the "best" form of logic, and it has internal inconsistencies.

You can trust in scientific studies that you yourself have not verified, and you can trust in people you've never met, and you can trust in arguments you've never dissected, and you can trust in information you've never been able to personally affirm as true. This applies equally to Christianity and Atheism and any other sort of belief system.

I'm glad that you still have just as much belief now as you did when you were a Christian! I'm just sad that you've placed it elsewhere.

The more I read the Bible, the more I understood the big picture. The process very successfully deconverted me because I discovered appalling things in it and things which were totally unbelievable.

Rationalism isn't blind faith. It all comes down to evidence. What evidence do you have that Christianity is any more true than Islam, say?

Atheism is not a belief system - by definition it is an absence of belief in a God.

Some of what you are writing reminds me of Solipsism - I can't prove that I exist or prove anything. This is the only thing I accept without evidence because otherwise I would not get out of bed in the morning.

So, yes, I can't prove that Christianity is right or wrong objectively. So why do you still believe? Is there any objective evidence? Or is it just very personal?
 
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