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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

I want to talk

Frogster

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If God's Law isn't binding, then why did Jesus die on the cross for your sins?
I would like to hear you explain justification of Christ's death without getting into binding laws stemming from God's legal system.
When you can do that, then maybe I'll buy that the Law has been abolished.

It is abolished for the Christian because the law culminated to the max in the flesh, where the whole old creation went with it, the Adamic creation, and the law, to the cross, Now we are raised up out of that whole old creation, like how Jesus was. Hence, we are not under law, but in the reign of Grace, Rom 5;21. The unsaved are not, they can only leave the realm of sin, law, and flesh, by death to it, then they will be raised up out of it too. Right now, they are still in the present evil age, Gal 1:4. The law was to make Adam really be known. Romans 5:20.

Our old man, the whole Adamic creation went..

6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.


Now we are..

4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
 
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Hi funestism and welcome to CF!:wave:

Being able to discuss and debate theological differences causes us to think, rethink, and study God's word.

I can't help but think that if there were only one denomination to which we all belonged, that there would be a tendency to become stagnant.

Certainly some will changes Churches on account of how they grow; others like myself will grow more steadfast and comfortable in our denom's own skin.

I believe such diversity is a blessing!
Then there can be disagreement in a single church. God bless Luther for his very brave defiant stand.
 
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Yarddog

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If God's Law isn't binding, then why did Jesus die on the cross for your sins?
Which Law of God's do you refer to? The Mosaic Law, which God gave to the people of Israel or the Law of the Spirit, which God gave to those of faith?
I would like to hear you explain justification of Christ's death without getting into binding laws stemming from God's legal system.
When you can do that, then maybe I'll buy that the Law has been abolished.
Jesus was born into this world to do what no man could ever do. Be totally obedient to God the Father. He lived the perfect life. He suffered because of his perfection. He became the perfect sacrifice which was foretold throughout the OT. The justification for Christ's death was his pure and perfect love for his sheep.

Man can only find justification through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not through trying to be obedient to a list of Laws. The Law which we Spiritually obey is to love. Without love, no law can justify us before God.

The Law still exists. Every person who does not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and salvation will have the law as their judge. Those who have the blood of the Lamb, have had Jesus fulfill the demands for them.

Praise be his holy name,
Jesus Christ, my Lord and my salvation
 
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If God's Law isn't binding, then why did Jesus die on the cross for your sins?
I would like to hear you explain justification of Christ's death without getting into binding laws stemming from God's legal system.
When you can do that, then maybe I'll buy that the Law has been abolished.
OK maybe I got a little caught up here with the problems I see and forgot about asking if you've considered I Tim 1:8-10. I think it is a great Scripture showing who the law applies to and who it doesn't apply to. It seems that some refused to accept the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is the only way one can get the righteousness required by God as a free gift.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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If God's Law isn't binding, then why did Jesus die on the cross for your sins?
I would like to hear you explain justification of Christ's death without getting into binding laws stemming from God's legal system.
When you can do that, then maybe I'll buy that the Law has been abolished.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.txt

__________________________________________________________________

Title: On the Incarnation of the Word
Creator(s): Athanasius, St. Archbishop of Alexandria (c.296-c.373)
(Translator)
Rights: Public Domain
CCEL Subjects: All; Theology; Early Church
LC Call no: BT220.A75
LC Subjects:

Doctrinal theology

Christology
__________________________________________________________________

On the Incarnation

by St. Athanasius
__________________________________________________________________


snip...

Chapter 2

The Divine Dilemma and its Solution in the Incarnation

(6) We saw in the last chapter that, because death and corruption were
gaining ever firmer hold on them, the human race was in process of
destruction. Man, who was created in God's image and in his possession
of reason reflected the very Word Himself, was disappearing, and the
work of God was being undone. The law of death, which followed from the
Transgression, prevailed upon us, and from it there was no escape. The
thing that was happening was in truth both monstrous and unfitting. It
would, of course, have been unthinkable that God should go back upon
His word and that man, having transgressed, should not die; but it was
equally monstrous that beings which once had shared the nature of the
Word should perish and turn back again into non-existence through
corruption. It was unworthy of the goodness of God that creatures made
by Him should be brought to nothing through the deceit wrought upon man
by the devil; and it was supremely unfitting that the work of God in
mankind should disappear, either through their own negligence or
through the deceit of evil spirits. As, then, the creatures whom He had
created reasonable, like the Word, were in fact perishing, and such
noble works were on the road to ruin, what then was God, being Good, to
do? Was He to let corruption and death have their way with them? In
that case, what was the use of having made them in the beginning?
Surely it would have been better never to have been created at all
than, having been created, to be neglected and perish; and, besides
that, such indifference to the ruin of His own work before His very
eyes would argue not goodness in God but limitation, and that far more
than if He had never created men at all. It was impossible, therefore,
that God should leave man to be carried off by corruption, because it
would be unfitting and unworthy of Himself.

(7) Yet, true though this is, it is not the whole matter. As we have
already noted, it was unthinkable that God, the Father of Truth, should
go back upon His word regarding death in order to ensure our continued
existence. He could not falsify Himself; what, then, was God to do? Was
He to demand repentance from men for their transgression? You might say
that that was worthy of God, and argue further that, as through the
Transgression they became subject to corruption, so through repentance
they might return to incorruption again. But repentance would not guard
the Divine consistency, for, if death did not hold dominion over men,
God would still remain untrue. Nor does repentance recall men from what
is according to their nature; all that it does is to make them cease
from sinning. Had it been a case of a trespass only, and not of a
subsequent corruption, repentance would have been well enough; but when
once transgression had begun men came under the power of the corruption
proper to their nature and were bereft of the grace which belonged to
them as creatures in the Image of God. No, repentance could not meet
the case. What--or rather Who was it that was needed for such grace and
such recall as we required? Who, save the Word of God Himself, Who also
in the beginning had made all things out of nothing? His part it was,
and His alone, both to bring again the corruptible to incorruption and
to maintain for the Father His consistency of character with all. For
He alone, being Word of the Father and above all, was in consequence
both able to recreate all, and worthy to suffer on behalf of all and to
be an ambassador for all with the Father.

(8) For this purpose, then, the incorporeal and incorruptible and
immaterial Word of God entered our world. In one sense, indeed, He was
not far from it before, for no part of creation had ever been without
Him Who, while ever abiding in union with the Father, yet fills all
things that are. But now He entered the world in a new way, stooping to
our level in His love and Self-revealing to us. He saw the reasonable
race, the race of men that, like Himself, expressed the Father's Mind,
wasting out of existence, and death reigning over all in corruption. He
saw that corruption held us all the closer, because it was the penalty
for the Transgression; He saw, too, how unthinkable it would be for the
law to be repealed before it was fulfilled. He saw how unseemly it was
that the very things of which He Himself was the Artificer should be
disappearing. He saw how the surpassing wickedness of men was mounting
up against them; He saw also their universal liability to death. All
this He saw and, pitying our race, moved with compassion for our
limitation, unable to endure that death should have the mastery, rather
than that His creatures should perish and the work of His Father for us
men come to nought, He took to Himself a body, a human body even as our
own. Nor did He will merely to become embodied or merely to appear; had
that been so, He could have revealed His divine majesty in some other
and better way. No, He took our body, and not only so, but He took it
directly from a spotless, stainless virgin, without the agency of human
father--a pure body, untainted by intercourse with man. He, the Mighty
One, the Artificer of all, Himself prepared this body in the virgin as
a temple for Himself, and took it for His very own, as the instrument
through which He was known and in which He dwelt. Thus, taking a body
like our own, because all our bodies were liable to the corruption of
death, He surrendered His body to death instead of all, and offered it
to the Father. This He did out of sheer love for us, so that in His
death all might die, and the law of death thereby be abolished because,
having fulfilled in His body that for which it was appointed, it was
thereafter voided of its power for men. This He did that He might turn
again to incorruption men who had turned back to corruption, and make
them alive through death by the appropriation of His body and by the
grace of His resurrection. Thus He would make death to disappear from
them as utterly as straw from fire.

(9) The Word perceived that corruption could not be got rid of
otherwise than through death; yet He Himself, as the Word, being
immortal and the Father's Son, was such as could not die. For this
reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that
it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in
dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining
incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to
corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. It
was by surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an
offering and sacrifice free from every stain, that He forthwith
abolished death for His human brethren by the offering of the
equivalent. For naturally, since the Word of God was above all, when He
offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the
life of all, He fulfilled in death all that was required. Naturally
also, through this union of the immortal Son of God with our human
nature, all men were clothed with incorruption in the promise of the
resurrection. For the solidarity of mankind is such that, by virtue of
the Word's indwelling in a single human body, the corruption which goes
with death has lost its power over all. You know how it is when some
great king enters a large city and dwells in one of its houses; because
of his dwelling in that single house, the whole city is honored, and
enemies and robbers cease to molest it. Even so is it with the King of
all; He has come into our country and dwelt in one body amidst the
many, and in consequence the designs of the enemy against mankind have
been foiled and the corruption of death, which formerly held them in
its power, has simply ceased to be. For the human race would have
perished utterly had not the Lord and Savior of all, the Son of God,
come among us to put an end to death.

God's Law is fulfilled by God.

Forgive me...
 
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daydreamergurl15

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I've learned that I don't argue with Christians outside of this forum. People can't develop their thoughts and explain their beliefs nor can they find scripture fast enough (I'm definitely one of them) to have an argument...but here, arguments last forever because people can actually go to scripture or not go to scripture and explain to one another what they believe.

Argument and discussion is not bad until we become unchristian like and that's when it generally needs to stop.
 
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Rick Otto

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I don't want to talk about something that is isolated to CF, but seems to happen a lot in much of my experience with the faith.

People get so emotional about what they believe, and what they believe not only differs dramatically from those who claim not to believe in it, but their individual beliefs also differ in many ways from those who claim to share the same faith.

I understand something about the Gospel, and I consider it good news, and I believe that if others get to hear it, it will help them accept more of the Gospel.

The problem is that I can't even get agreement from my fellow Christians, so we end up going back and forth between us.

I'm into the Law, and that's seen as living in bondage.
I'm not into the Law, and that's seen as missing God's will.
I listen to the Westboro Baptist Church, and that's seen as too hateful.
I listen to Rob Bell, and that's seen as too new age.
I espouse loyalty to the RCC, and only accept church-approved ideas.
I am a non-denominational Protestant who doesn't even want to be labelled as that.
Whatever it is about me, they are a world of Christians out there ready and waiting to argue with me about it.

Now, unbeknownst to me, this argumentative nature of faith-based dialogue is perfect because non-believers can sit back, listen to the dialogue, and get something meaningful out of each side.

I see the debating as somehow hurting my message, so I start to get upset, and then I start saying things I shouldn't, and before I know it, the thread that I started in order to share some bit of good news is being closed for review because I have resorted to flaming my fellow Christians!

[staff edit]
Touch not the evil thing.
Don't let your inner child play with matches.;)
 
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